1. #1
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    Default Why go to a basic fire academy?

    While people do get hired with limited experience, many fire candidates fail out of the academy when they finally do get hired. It is important to understand that the failure rate for a fire department academy (different than a junior college fire academy) in up to 40%.

    Fire Chiefs do not want to hire people who will not make it through their training program. Since this is the case, most often the person hired is someone with prior training. If you are learning the parts of a ladder and the proper technique to throw it for the first time in a fire department academy you are going to be two steps behind the person who has already mastered the skill from a basic fire academy or volunteer firefighter position.

    Let me give you an example:
    You recently completed your EMT. I expect you did it in a semester long course which met twice each week for three hours at a time. You went home and studied and became proficient with your skills and book knowledge.

    Imagine taking EMT in a three week condensed course for 8 hours each day. Every morning you have a major quiz on what you learned the previous day. That’s what we do in our fire department academy. Understanding this now you can see why we hire people who have prior EMT training. Do people get hired who do not have EMT training? Yes, absolutely. Imagine how well they have to sell themselves during an interview to make me believe they are going to make it.

    Multiply this equation by 100 and now you have an understanding for the feeling about hiring a candidate with NO formal fire academy training. Why should we take a chance (remember the failure rate is up to 40%) when there are hundreds of candidates from which to choose.

    Your military experience will absolutely help ONCE YOU ARE HIRED. It does not help you learn how to pull hose, learn the parts of a ladder or memorize the bones in the body.

    Your best template is to enroll in fire science courses, stay physically fit, get yourself through a basic fire academy and LEARN HOW TO TAKE A FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW.

    Good luck,
    Paul Lepore
    Division Chief
    Aspiringfirefighters.com
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    I think it is misleading to say “many” cadets drop out of fire academy’s. I would say that most new hires do just fine and only a small percentage don’t not make it. I would like to know where you get your 40 percent dropout rate?

    Maybe there are departments out there with 40% failure rates, but I would have to think this is the exception to the rule. Most likely, these are the big city departments that hire new firefighters based on other qualifications then experience (I guess we all see the elephant in the room).

    So, let’s all remember that anyone can post on the internet regardless of actually knowing anything. I do agree with Paul on some of his info, but the rest I believe he pulled out of his rear end.

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    Way to call out a pretty well respected Chief Officer on your 5th post. Chief Lepore has an extensive background in hiring with a large urban department.

    I think his numbers do apply much more significantly to the larger departments, but even in my suburban/rural area I would expect about 10-25% to fail out or get fired for something they could have prevented. A city out here recently let go 5 out of 6 of their recruits due to integrity. Granted the last year or so has been much more successful since hiring is down significantly and they can pick one person out of the hundreds that apply.

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    Let’s remember chiefs get to the administrative level for several different reasons. Because you are a chief, and no one will challenge you, does not give you cause to talk out of your bottom to the rest of us.

    I think most of these guys get by on their self made up percentages and when these percentages are challenged, they fall apart with no real documentation to back them up. To say FDNY has a 40% dropout rate is one thing. To say the fire service has a 40% dropout academy rate is ridicules. The sad thing is people read this crap and believe it.

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    Is this a sales pitch? Or is this someone just trying to give free advice?

    Just asking. When you click on the web site under the posters name it seems more like a sales pitch. Are you Capt. Booby's cousin?
    Stay Safe
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    Quote Originally Posted by stcaf View Post
    Let’s remember chiefs get to the administrative level for several different reasons. Because you are a chief, and no one will challenge you, does not give you cause to talk out of your bottom to the rest of us.

    I think most of these guys get by on their self made up percentages and when these percentages are challenged, they fall apart with no real documentation to back them up. To say FDNY has a 40% dropout rate is one thing. To say the fire service has a 40% dropout academy rate is ridicules. The sad thing is people read this crap and believe it.



    Yeah bud what does Paul Lepore a Division Fire Chief, in a Southern California Fire Department know anyway??

    He has been on the job longer than you have been living and probably has seen more fire in his days than you may expect to see. Don't take his word for anything!

    He happens to be a well known author on helping new members seeking jobs and training. I would suggest that he has conducted studies on firefighters around the US and know what he is saying.

    He just probably wrote that numbers down right off the top of his head.

    If you do get on a department with that attitude about Chief Officers, you my friend will have a very hard time in your short stay in the fire service.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulLepore View Post
    ...Your best template is to enroll in fire science courses, stay physically fit, get yourself through a basic fire academy and LEARN HOW TO TAKE A FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW.

    Good luck,

    Click the link at the bottom of the post. First book, right side top of page.

    EDIT: after thinking about it, I hate to be presumptious, but it does seem kinda "connect the dots.."
    Last edited by safdkiltie; 02-17-2010 at 05:48 PM.

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    I will tell you that my frame of reference does come from several major Caifornia fire departments. Yes, they are large departments who generally hire a lot of people. Are they exaggerated statistics.? Not even close, and certainly not pulled out of my rear end.....
    Paul Lepore
    Division Chief
    Aspiringfirefighters.com
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    Paul Lapore is just using this forum as a cheap outlet mall to make a few bucks aspiring firefighters. If Paul did not pull his stats out of his rear, where did he get them? Maybe from his DC’s rear???

    People, we need to not take these freelance chefs at their word and simply believe everything they say as fact. I understand the art of but kissing and if this guy was my wonder chief, I would just nod to his bs and laugh about him behind his back at the union meeting with everyone else (you all know what I’m talking about).

    - “the failure rate for a fire department academy (different than a junior college fire academy) in up to 40%”. WHERE DOES THIS % COME FROM?

    - “Fire Chiefs do not want to hire people who will not make it through their training program” This is my first clue that you are setting the reader up for a load of BS. First rule of BS, give the reader a common sense sentence so you seem creditable and give them your BS.

    - “most often the person hired is someone with prior training.” If the majority of applicants have experience, then what percentage of applicants with experience fail out compared to those with no experience.

    - “Why should we take a chance (remember the failure rate is up to 40%) when there are hundreds of candidates from which to choose.” Let me ask you why we should take a chance. Maybe because communities only require a drivers lic and a HS degree so they can get a “well rounded” group of applicants.

    -“Your military experience will absolutely help ONCE YOU ARE HIRED. It does not help you learn how to pull hose, learn the parts of a ladder or memorize the bones in the body.”
    What the heck are you talking about? So, magically after you are hired, your military experience will help you pull hose? What kind of a statement is this? Why would you even write this?

    - " Your best template is to enroll in fire science courses, stay physically fit, get yourself through a basic fire academy and LEARN HOW TO TAKE A FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW.”

    I think you could have saved us all a lot of reading if you would have just included this final sentence. At lease the sentence does not read: If you enroll in a fire science course, stay fit, you will have a 60% chance of making it through the fictional 40% fail out academy.

    Paul, I will e-mail you my credit card number, my birth cert, and a letter that my dad was a firefighter and maybe you can get me promoted to chief status and we can make up stats together to sell some snake oil at the summer fair in 2010.

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    Chief Lepore, thanks for the motivation to keep bettering ourselves and improving our chances of success both before and after recruitment through education and training. Yes, failure rates may vary from academy to academy, but the ugly truth is a cadet will be better prepared if he/she has already gone through the same type of training because they know what to expect.

    I am still in the testing process, so I am not in any way attempting to portray that I am an active FF, but everyone's advice on this forum has been very helpful to me and others doing the best we can to be the best candidates and future firefighters possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stcaf View Post
    Paul Lapore is just using this forum as a cheap outlet mall to make a few bucks aspiring firefighters. If Paul did not pull his stats out of his rear, where did he get them? Maybe from his DC’s rear???

    People, we need to not take these freelance chefs at their word and simply believe everything they say as fact. I understand the art of but kissing and if this guy was my wonder chief, I would just nod to his bs and laugh about him behind his back at the union meeting with everyone else (you all know what I’m talking about).

    - “the failure rate for a fire department academy (different than a junior college fire academy) in up to 40%”. WHERE DOES THIS % COME FROM?

    - “Fire Chiefs do not want to hire people who will not make it through their training program” This is my first clue that you are setting the reader up for a load of BS. First rule of BS, give the reader a common sense sentence so you seem creditable and give them your BS.

    - “most often the person hired is someone with prior training.” If the majority of applicants have experience, then what percentage of applicants with experience fail out compared to those with no experience.

    - “Why should we take a chance (remember the failure rate is up to 40%) when there are hundreds of candidates from which to choose.” Let me ask you why we should take a chance. Maybe because communities only require a drivers lic and a HS degree so they can get a “well rounded” group of applicants.

    -“Your military experience will absolutely help ONCE YOU ARE HIRED. It does not help you learn how to pull hose, learn the parts of a ladder or memorize the bones in the body.”
    What the heck are you talking about? So, magically after you are hired, your military experience will help you pull hose? What kind of a statement is this? Why would you even write this?

    - " Your best template is to enroll in fire science courses, stay physically fit, get yourself through a basic fire academy and LEARN HOW TO TAKE A FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW.”

    I think you could have saved us all a lot of reading if you would have just included this final sentence. At lease the sentence does not read: If you enroll in a fire science course, stay fit, you will have a 60% chance of making it through the fictional 40% fail out academy.

    Paul, I will e-mail you my credit card number, my birth cert, and a letter that my dad was a firefighter and maybe you can get me promoted to chief status and we can make up stats together to sell some snake oil at the summer fair in 2010.


    You make me sick! You are not a firefighter! You probably failed the first step in trying to be one by not filling out the application in its entirety!

    Why did you get a membership to these forums only to come in here and blast a nationally known respected member of the fire service who happens to be a Chief Officer in a major California Fire Department!

    Turn in your membership before the webteam cans you!

    HOW DARE YOU SIR?

    You could even begin to understand anything the Chief and others have said about being a member of the fire service.

    I sure wish I could have you for 22 weeks of some of the hardest basic training that can be given out. You would in all probably be a drop out. We are like the Maries, we are looking for a few GOOD members!

  12. #12
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    I read and reread Paul's post, don't see anywhere a pitch to sell something. But having gone through a city fire academy, he is right on with his advice.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    STCAF,

    Welcome to the boards.

    I don't quite see where you see a sales pitch. Pretty much anything that Chief Lepore has put on here over the years is nothing more then something to get you thinking or maybe inspire you. I have never read one post from him that said, "go buy my book." Chief, or not he is a great guy. I have met him several times and I will tell you he is in it for the love of the job.

    ...and if you are wondering I was long hired before I met him.
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    Cool Some advice......

    stcaf,

    My advice to you is not blast a well-respected, passionate, aggressive, intelligant Chief Officer from a Department that is very well-respected. If you don't know already, check out Long Beach Fire Department's training and then form your opinion about one of their C.Os.

    The link is: www.lbfdtraining.com/

    This link is great and showcases many topics. I'll even wager that you will learn a thing or two from this site.

    As far as Chief Lepore's advice goes, he's correct and right on..... What is taught to us? Repetition, repetition, repetition.....
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Me thinks we have a troll.
    RIP Hela

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    Wow, I never thought I would see such A** kissing. This guy is a joke and you all know it.

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    Oh yeah, and your vast knowledge and education about the fire academy or the fire service in general has really shone through in your posts......
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    Quote Originally Posted by stcaf View Post
    Wow, I never thought I would see such A** kissing. This guy is a joke and you all know it.
    Good luck with your endeavors.
    This space for rent

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Oh yeah, and your vast knowledge and education about the fire academy or the fire service in general has really shone through in your posts......
    I have some advice for you. If you don't like him, don't take his advice. You don't have to be a ***** to the guy, especially since, as far as I can tell, you don't even know him. If you think his advice is useless, don't listen to him... and we'll see how far you get in your fire service career.

    p.s- Frankly, I'm thankful that there's someone on this site who is willing to offer some advice to aspiring firefighters like myself, and I can't believe you'd down him for trying to help you. Adjust your attitude bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by merchan5967 View Post
    I have some advice for you. If you don't like him, don't take his advice. You don't have to be a ***** to the guy, especially since, as far as I can tell, you don't even know him. If you think his advice is useless, don't listen to him... and we'll see how far you get in your fire service career.

    p.s- Frankly, I'm thankful that there's someone on this site who is willing to offer some advice to aspiring firefighters like myself, and I can't believe you'd down him for trying to help you. Adjust your attitude bro.
    St. Paul's a damn good department, I'd say just in getting appointed there he's done quite well for himself. You people do realize that most top departments couldn't care less about prior certs, degrees and other pieces of paper right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbfitz View Post
    St. Paul's a damn good department, I'd say just in getting appointed there he's done quite well for himself. You people do realize that most top departments couldn't care less about prior certs, degrees and other pieces of paper right?
    This is true. But I think you are missing the main point. Is to get a taste of it to make the Department Academy easier for yourself so you are less likely to fail out.
    RIP Hela

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    I have some advice for you. If you don't like him, don't take his advice. You don't have to be a ***** to the guy, especially since, as far as I can tell, you don't even know him. If you think his advice is useless, don't listen to him... and we'll see how far you get in your fire service career.
    I hope for your sake, if you make it to an academy, your reading comprehension improves. My post was directed towards what stcaf posted just above mine.
    If you read the entire thread, you will see I agree with the Chief's posting.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    This is the exact route I'm taking to become a FF. I know everyone takes different roads to land their dream job so this plan mapped out by Chief Lepore may not be ideal for you.

    I'm currently taking my EMT cert, then I'll be working as an EMT for 6 months. After that, I'll start my FF1 academy.

    At that point, I feel I will have a foundation to build upon. I do not like starting something unless I feel I'm prepared. I owe it to the public I will serve to be the best I can be.

    I live in SoCal, maybe that's why Chief Lepore and I share the same sentiments.

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    STCAF,
    Your anger and bitterness overcome you.

    Before you call BS, get your facts. You might start by looking at the failure rate for Southern California fire departments. It is not my place to list the departments by name, but I assure you my facts are correct. In fact, I am very familiar with a department who hired lateral medics and fired 70% of them. This department no longer hires outside medics. They send their own guys to school instead.

    I am familiar with another department who hires medics that has them ride 4 shifts on the box BEFORE putting them through their academy. If their medic skills are not up to speed, they are terminated at the end of the 4th shift.

    You seem to believe my information and background are not credible. I can tell you that I have been involved in literally of hundreds of entry-level (and promotional) interviews. Every statement I have made is based on my own experiences.

    Do I believe military men and women excel in the fire service? Absolutely I do. They understand how to work in diverse environments with people from different backgrounds. They understand honor and commitment and the fact that you know your place.

    Yes, I did say that most often the people who fail out of an academy are the people who have not been through one before. If someone is learning the balance point of a ladder for the first time, they are already behind those who already have learned this. The same thing applies to someone who has already taken an EMT class. He is way ahead of his peers who are learning EMT for the first time.

    Yes, I did say "LEARN HOW TO TAKE A FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW.”
    A fire department iinterview is much different that a regular job interview. Here's how; In a regular job interview you try to convince the panel that you are the most QUALIFIED person and that the business really cannot afford NOT to hire you.

    In a fire department interview you want to come across as being HUMBLE, yet competent and capable. Most importantly, you want to convince the panel that you will make it through our training (remember a HIGH percentage will not), that you will be able to complete probation, and most importantly that my crews will like and respect you.

    You wrote, "Maybe because communities only require a drivers lic and a HS degree so they can get a “well rounded” group of applicants."

    These are the MINIMUM qualifications that are set by the CITY. They are not set by the fire department. I would not suscribe to you theory of how to prepare for a firefighter position. I advocate going to a fire academy, becomming an EMT, reserve firefighter, working on your degree, and considering Paramedic school.

    You and I are not going to agree. What I will tell you is that I put my money where my mouth is, my own flesh and blood. My daughter is getting married in May to a guy who is in an academy NOW. He just completed his EMT course and his bachelors. Next he will get a job as an EMT and build up hours for Paramedic school. He will do this while finishing his fire science degree.

    He will EARN a job , regardless of what his father (or father in law does for a living). I see the sacrafices that he and my daughter make. He is learning a great deal that will help his chances of being successful when he finally gets hired. As he clearly understands, there are no guarantees once you get hired. I have made it abundantly clear to him that the real work begins the day he starts a fire department's academy.
    Paul Lepore
    Division Chief
    Aspiringfirefighters.com
    AspiringFireOfficers.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulLepore View Post
    STCAF,
    Your anger and bitterness overcome you.

    Before you call BS, get your facts. You might start by looking at the failure rate for Southern California fire departments. It is not my place to list the departments by name, but I assure you my facts are correct. In fact, I am very familiar with a department who hired lateral medics and fired 70% of them. This department no longer hires outside medics. They send their own guys to school instead.

    I am familiar with another department who hires medics that has them ride 4 shifts on the box BEFORE putting them through their academy. If their medic skills are not up to speed, they are terminated at the end of the 4th shift.

    You seem to believe my information and background are not credible. I can tell you that I have been involved in literally of hundreds of entry-level (and promotional) interviews. Every statement I have made is based on my own experiences.

    Do I believe military men and women excel in the fire service? Absolutely I do. They understand how to work in diverse environments with people from different backgrounds. They understand honor and commitment and the fact that you know your place.

    Yes, I did say that most often the people who fail out of an academy are the people who have not been through one before. If someone is learning the balance point of a ladder for the first time, they are already behind those who already have learned this. The same thing applies to someone who has already taken an EMT class. He is way ahead of his peers who are learning EMT for the first time.

    Yes, I did say "LEARN HOW TO TAKE A FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW.”
    A fire department iinterview is much different that a regular job interview. Here's how; In a regular job interview you try to convince the panel that you are the most QUALIFIED person and that the business really cannot afford NOT to hire you.

    In a fire department interview you want to come across as being HUMBLE, yet competent and capable. Most importantly, you want to convince the panel that you will make it through our training (remember a HIGH percentage will not), that you will be able to complete probation, and most importantly that my crews will like and respect you.

    You wrote, "Maybe because communities only require a drivers lic and a HS degree so they can get a “well rounded” group of applicants."

    These are the MINIMUM qualifications that are set by the CITY. They are not set by the fire department. I would not suscribe to you theory of how to prepare for a firefighter position. I advocate going to a fire academy, becomming an EMT, reserve firefighter, working on your degree, and considering Paramedic school.

    You and I are not going to agree. What I will tell you is that I put my money where my mouth is, my own flesh and blood. My daughter is getting married in May to a guy who is in an academy NOW. He just completed his EMT course and his bachelors. Next he will get a job as an EMT and build up hours for Paramedic school. He will do this while finishing his fire science degree.

    He will EARN a job , regardless of what his father (or father in law does for a living). I see the sacrafices that he and my daughter make. He is learning a great deal that will help his chances of being successful when he finally gets hired. As he clearly understands, there are no guarantees once you get hired. I have made it abundantly clear to him that the real work begins the day he starts a fire department's academy.
    Bravo chief!

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