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  1. #21
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YFDLt08 View Post
    Original poster, I can answer one of your two questions. I have been in a flashover. I can't tell you about abandoning the line or staying with a fog because I didn't have a line.

    I know it was a flashover, not just a rollover which people often deal with. That is one problem I see. Guys want to puff their chest and say how they survived a flashover when really they just ducked underneath a rollover. My opinion anyway.

    I know it was a flashover because while I was searching the room ahead of the hoseline being placed I physically and mentally observed the fire work its way up the corner, fan across the ceiling, the smoke went from non existent to banked down to 2 feet, and the heat went from "mmmm it's nice in here" to "WTF!!!" in the space of approx 1-2 minutes. Further, I actually said out loud to myself "hmmm that's interesting the couch is beginning to smoke!" The other fabric objects began smoking as well as did the plastic items. That's how I know it was a flashover.

    The only thing that made me a survivor was the fact that somewhere in the midst of my observations I remembered the part about....leaving! I was within 3 feet of the door on my hands and knees when it flashed and I was tumbling down porch steps so the worst of the flash went over top of me. I spun around and indeed the room was engulfed.

    All this to say I can't tell you if I'd have opened the line or not, straight fog or combo, or simply abandoned the line. I can tell you that MemphisE34 is correct that opening up the line and putting it out is the best way to do it. However, learning the signs and symptoms and being proactive about them is even more important. If you're noticing things getting bad and you're not sure if you should fog or not, then it's probably going to be too late rather quickly.

    Stay safe all.
    I would say you escaped a flashover, not survived one.

    Glad to know you got out alright though. Recognizing what was going on probably saved your life.
    Career Firefighter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I would say you escaped a flashover, not survived one.

    Glad to know you got out alright though. Recognizing what was going on probably saved your life.
    Excellent correction in terminology. You're correct.

  3. #23
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENG103 View Post
    If I twist the tip of my nozzle to the right, the 15/16" tip falls off !!
    Yup. Use a straight bore nozzle and the only silly sayings you have to remember are "OPEN" and "CLOSED."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  4. #24
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    What's sad is that there are still places where the indirect method, highlighting the 1700:1 steam conversion, is still taught? :-0

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    What's sad is that there are still places where the indirect method, highlighting the 1700:1 steam conversion, is still taught? :-0
    Why is that sad? The indirect method of fire attack is an acceptable and apropriate tactic in the right conditions. Firefighters should be taught any and all available tactics, as there is no one tactic that will work for every fire.

  6. #26
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Why is that sad? The indirect method of fire attack is an acceptable and apropriate tactic in the right conditions. Firefighters should be taught any and all available tactics, as there is no one tactic that will work for every fire.
    Excellent answer. But I would like to add a corrolary if I may.

    The indirect attack is an appropriate tactic when you can control the opening and ventilation of the fire area has not yet been accomplished. Firefighters should NOT be in the area where the steam conversion will occur as it may lead to serious steam burns.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  7. #27
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    Ditto both Catch and Fyred's immediately preceding posts.

    What IS sad is that those teaching it's use don't always indicate the dangers inherent or the appropriate time to use it. Too many come out of the class thinking they can just hit it and it'll work. We still teach the use of the cellar nozzle as an option but if you really need one, well, good luck finding it! That doesn't make it wrong to teach, though.

    Someday at 0 dark 30, the only tactic that may get you out might be opening up a heavy fog and taking a steam beating. Hopefully that will be a last resort, but beats the alternative. Keep teaching it.

  8. #28
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    I totally agree with teaching multiple tactics. I have no problem with teaching the direct attack with a smoothbore or straight stream with a combo nozzle, or the indirect attack with a combo nozzle, or pulsing into the overhead to cool the gases. All of these techniques have their place and part of the teaching process is helping student firefighters know when to choose which one.

    I am a huge advocate of the direct attack and it is my tactic of choice. That however does not mean if one of the other techniques is a better choice that I won't use them to my advantage.

    Keeping an open mind can help save you from severe injury or death.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  9. #29
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegeek8096 View Post
    I remember being taught this simple saying back in recruit school regarding fog nozzle patterns. Turn the tip to the right for a straight stream to fight the fire, and turn the fog tip to the left when faced with a rapid fire event, giving you a "fog curtain," then back out of the building.

    Why is this taught in the first place? It seems like a completely unrealistic tactic. If a crew is faced with a rapid fire event like flashover, we know that there is very little time to escape and most likely the hoseline will be abandoned immediately. Opening up a wide fog in this situation seems counter-productive and would only end in steaming the crew.

    Not having been caught in a flashover myself, has anybody here experienced a flashover? If so, did you abandon the line or did you back out systematically with the magical fog curtain keeping you safe?
    We keep it simple. Right for straight stream, left for fog. Use the appropriate nozzle pattern at the appropriate time.

    We don't bother them with cute sayings.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #30
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Serious question here:

    -Has anyone who uses 1.75" handlines equipped with 15/16" solid bore nozzles, ever experienced, or come close to experiencing flashover conditions???

    *NOTE* This is a loaded question, I know the answer.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Why is that sad? The indirect method of fire attack is an acceptable and apropriate tactic in the right conditions. Firefighters should be taught any and all available tactics, as there is no one tactic that will work for every fire.
    When it's taught as the primary (or even only) tactic, without awareness that it has its limitations. In particular, as FyredUp has already pointed out, that firefighters should NOT be in the same compartment as the fire when the indirect method is used.

  12. #32
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    When it's taught as the primary (or even only) tactic, without awareness that it has its limitations. In particular, as FyredUp has already pointed out, that firefighters should NOT be in the same compartment as the fire when the indirect method is used.
    When I started 33 years ago the only tactic we were taught was to crawl into the center of the fire room, have the nozzle set on wide fog, hold the hose 18 inches (exactly) from the nozzle and whip it over your head so the fog was dispersed into the super heated overhead.

    So picture this firefighter on his back waving this hose around and causing all the super heated, black, nasty to drop right down to floor level and steam burning the nozzle crew.

    A few of us radicals were reading the national publications and found that we could use straight streams,or smooth bores,and use the reach of the stream to extinguish the fire without having to get steam burned every single time we fought fire.

    As late as 11 years ago when I started on my current FD I had a company officer, during my recruit training, direct me to use an indirect attack while I was in the fire room. I, um, didn't hear him and used a direct attack. I got chewed a bit for it, but at least I didn't get steam burned.

    "Proper application of the proper tactic done properly" should be the mantra of the attack crew.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Excellent answer. But I would like to add a corrolary if I may.

    The indirect attack is an appropriate tactic when you can control the opening and ventilation of the fire area has not yet been accomplished. Firefighters should NOT be in the area where the steam conversion will occur as it may lead to serious steam burns.
    I won't argue that one bit.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    When it's taught as the primary (or even only) tactic, without awareness that it has its limitations. In particular, as FyredUp has already pointed out, that firefighters should NOT be in the same compartment as the fire when the indirect method is used.
    I'll agree with you 100%, it should not be taught as the "only" tactic.

    Our military tried that with fighter aircraft in the '60's, taking the guns off and going only missiles. It didn't work and we now have guns back on fighter aircraft.

    The same lesson applies to our job; you have to have a variety of tactics when you're dealing with a variety of situations.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENG103 View Post
    If I twist the tip of my nozzle to the right, the 15/16" tip falls off !!
    I about choked on my Pepsi on this one!!

    For everyone else, very good comments.

  16. #36
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    When I started 33 years ago the only tactic we were taught was to crawl into the center of the fire room, have the nozzle set on wide fog, hold the hose 18 inches (exactly) from the nozzle and whip it over your head so the fog was dispersed into the super heated overhead.
    I had the same instructor.

    So picture this firefighter on his back waving this hose around and causing all the super heated, black, nasty to drop right down to floor level and steam burning the nozzle crew.
    I have a few burn scars that proves this.

    A few of us radicals were reading the national publications and found that we could use straight streams,or smooth bores,and use the reach of the stream to extinguish the fire without having to get steam burned every single time we fought fire.
    Were we.... radical?

    Maybe we were just ahead of our time.

    How could we have ever known that water doesn't just reduce heat, it actually puts of fire. What a great thing we discovered there.

    As late as 11 years ago when I started on my current FD I had a company officer, during my recruit training, direct me to use an indirect attack while I was in the fire room. I, um, didn't hear him and used a direct attack. I got chewed a bit for it, but at least I didn't get steam burned.
    I see you are hard of hearing too. I have been known to 'conveniently' not hear instructions.

    Did I mention that some Company Officers are over-rated?

    (Please hold the discussion and differing opinions down on this, please.)

    "Proper application of the proper tactic done properly" should be the mantra of the attack crew.
    Hmmm. I wonder if we did that if it would put Company Officers out of work. Might be an improvement.

    Fyred... you need to add something to that statement though. Don't let some Company Officers control the nozzle.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Disclaimer:
    I have nothing against Company Officers. Everyone should try it but very few can actually be an effective one.

    I have to deal with them every day and sometimes you just want to break your foot.

    It is a lot easier to ORDER someone to do something wrong than it is to INSTRUCT them on HOW to do it right.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry for the rant but I just returned from a M/A call where the First Due attack crew tried to extinguish a chimney-flue fire with 200gpm from the roof. It gives a whole new meaning to "Man Down".

    We had the next closest crew and their Company Officer waited until all of his guys had already hit the ground to call backup. What a mess.

    Why do some people just have to make things so damn hard?

    (Please go back to the Academy, you seem to have missed a couple of things.)


    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302
    I about choked on my Pepsi
    That can lead to serious issues... better see a doctor about that.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    When I started 33 years ago the only tactic we were taught was to crawl into the center of the fire room, have the nozzle set on wide fog, hold the hose 18 inches (exactly) from the nozzle and whip it over your head so the fog was dispersed into the super heated overhead.

    So picture this firefighter on his back waving this hose around and causing all the super heated, black, nasty to drop right down to floor level and steam burning the nozzle crew.

    "Proper application of the proper tactic done properly" should be the mantra of the attack crew.



    Been there, Still puking up chunks from that. No SCBA ya know. Hell, When I went through rookie school, We still had OBA's on the rig. And yes I can still put one in service.

  18. #38
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Serious question here:

    -Has anyone who uses 1.75" handlines equipped with 15/16" solid bore nozzles, ever experienced, or come close to experiencing flashover conditions???

    *NOTE* This is a loaded question, I know the answer.
    Question still stands. Any takers?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  19. #39
    Forum Member CGITCH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Question still stands. Any takers?
    Well anybody using a solid bore nozzle is probably dead since it had no hole for water to come out of, if you meant smooth bore, then we can talk...

  20. #40
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    We have nozzle bores that are rifled. Helps maintain water spin and reduces water tumble. We do lose a little velocity but the accuracy is fantastic.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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