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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Why is that sad? The indirect method of fire attack is an acceptable and apropriate tactic in the right conditions. Firefighters should be taught any and all available tactics, as there is no one tactic that will work for every fire.
    Excellent answer. But I would like to add a corrolary if I may.

    The indirect attack is an appropriate tactic when you can control the opening and ventilation of the fire area has not yet been accomplished. Firefighters should NOT be in the area where the steam conversion will occur as it may lead to serious steam burns.
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    Ditto both Catch and Fyred's immediately preceding posts.

    What IS sad is that those teaching it's use don't always indicate the dangers inherent or the appropriate time to use it. Too many come out of the class thinking they can just hit it and it'll work. We still teach the use of the cellar nozzle as an option but if you really need one, well, good luck finding it! That doesn't make it wrong to teach, though.

    Someday at 0 dark 30, the only tactic that may get you out might be opening up a heavy fog and taking a steam beating. Hopefully that will be a last resort, but beats the alternative. Keep teaching it.

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    I totally agree with teaching multiple tactics. I have no problem with teaching the direct attack with a smoothbore or straight stream with a combo nozzle, or the indirect attack with a combo nozzle, or pulsing into the overhead to cool the gases. All of these techniques have their place and part of the teaching process is helping student firefighters know when to choose which one.

    I am a huge advocate of the direct attack and it is my tactic of choice. That however does not mean if one of the other techniques is a better choice that I won't use them to my advantage.

    Keeping an open mind can help save you from severe injury or death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegeek8096 View Post
    I remember being taught this simple saying back in recruit school regarding fog nozzle patterns. Turn the tip to the right for a straight stream to fight the fire, and turn the fog tip to the left when faced with a rapid fire event, giving you a "fog curtain," then back out of the building.

    Why is this taught in the first place? It seems like a completely unrealistic tactic. If a crew is faced with a rapid fire event like flashover, we know that there is very little time to escape and most likely the hoseline will be abandoned immediately. Opening up a wide fog in this situation seems counter-productive and would only end in steaming the crew.

    Not having been caught in a flashover myself, has anybody here experienced a flashover? If so, did you abandon the line or did you back out systematically with the magical fog curtain keeping you safe?
    We keep it simple. Right for straight stream, left for fog. Use the appropriate nozzle pattern at the appropriate time.

    We don't bother them with cute sayings.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Serious question here:

    -Has anyone who uses 1.75" handlines equipped with 15/16" solid bore nozzles, ever experienced, or come close to experiencing flashover conditions???

    *NOTE* This is a loaded question, I know the answer.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Why is that sad? The indirect method of fire attack is an acceptable and apropriate tactic in the right conditions. Firefighters should be taught any and all available tactics, as there is no one tactic that will work for every fire.
    When it's taught as the primary (or even only) tactic, without awareness that it has its limitations. In particular, as FyredUp has already pointed out, that firefighters should NOT be in the same compartment as the fire when the indirect method is used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    When it's taught as the primary (or even only) tactic, without awareness that it has its limitations. In particular, as FyredUp has already pointed out, that firefighters should NOT be in the same compartment as the fire when the indirect method is used.
    When I started 33 years ago the only tactic we were taught was to crawl into the center of the fire room, have the nozzle set on wide fog, hold the hose 18 inches (exactly) from the nozzle and whip it over your head so the fog was dispersed into the super heated overhead.

    So picture this firefighter on his back waving this hose around and causing all the super heated, black, nasty to drop right down to floor level and steam burning the nozzle crew.

    A few of us radicals were reading the national publications and found that we could use straight streams,or smooth bores,and use the reach of the stream to extinguish the fire without having to get steam burned every single time we fought fire.

    As late as 11 years ago when I started on my current FD I had a company officer, during my recruit training, direct me to use an indirect attack while I was in the fire room. I, um, didn't hear him and used a direct attack. I got chewed a bit for it, but at least I didn't get steam burned.

    "Proper application of the proper tactic done properly" should be the mantra of the attack crew.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Excellent answer. But I would like to add a corrolary if I may.

    The indirect attack is an appropriate tactic when you can control the opening and ventilation of the fire area has not yet been accomplished. Firefighters should NOT be in the area where the steam conversion will occur as it may lead to serious steam burns.
    I won't argue that one bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    When it's taught as the primary (or even only) tactic, without awareness that it has its limitations. In particular, as FyredUp has already pointed out, that firefighters should NOT be in the same compartment as the fire when the indirect method is used.
    I'll agree with you 100%, it should not be taught as the "only" tactic.

    Our military tried that with fighter aircraft in the '60's, taking the guns off and going only missiles. It didn't work and we now have guns back on fighter aircraft.

    The same lesson applies to our job; you have to have a variety of tactics when you're dealing with a variety of situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENG103 View Post
    If I twist the tip of my nozzle to the right, the 15/16" tip falls off !!
    I about choked on my Pepsi on this one!!

    For everyone else, very good comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    When I started 33 years ago the only tactic we were taught was to crawl into the center of the fire room, have the nozzle set on wide fog, hold the hose 18 inches (exactly) from the nozzle and whip it over your head so the fog was dispersed into the super heated overhead.
    I had the same instructor.

    So picture this firefighter on his back waving this hose around and causing all the super heated, black, nasty to drop right down to floor level and steam burning the nozzle crew.
    I have a few burn scars that proves this.

    A few of us radicals were reading the national publications and found that we could use straight streams,or smooth bores,and use the reach of the stream to extinguish the fire without having to get steam burned every single time we fought fire.
    Were we.... radical?

    Maybe we were just ahead of our time.

    How could we have ever known that water doesn't just reduce heat, it actually puts of fire. What a great thing we discovered there.

    As late as 11 years ago when I started on my current FD I had a company officer, during my recruit training, direct me to use an indirect attack while I was in the fire room. I, um, didn't hear him and used a direct attack. I got chewed a bit for it, but at least I didn't get steam burned.
    I see you are hard of hearing too. I have been known to 'conveniently' not hear instructions.

    Did I mention that some Company Officers are over-rated?

    (Please hold the discussion and differing opinions down on this, please.)

    "Proper application of the proper tactic done properly" should be the mantra of the attack crew.
    Hmmm. I wonder if we did that if it would put Company Officers out of work. Might be an improvement.

    Fyred... you need to add something to that statement though. Don't let some Company Officers control the nozzle.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Disclaimer:
    I have nothing against Company Officers. Everyone should try it but very few can actually be an effective one.

    I have to deal with them every day and sometimes you just want to break your foot.

    It is a lot easier to ORDER someone to do something wrong than it is to INSTRUCT them on HOW to do it right.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry for the rant but I just returned from a M/A call where the First Due attack crew tried to extinguish a chimney-flue fire with 200gpm from the roof. It gives a whole new meaning to "Man Down".

    We had the next closest crew and their Company Officer waited until all of his guys had already hit the ground to call backup. What a mess.

    Why do some people just have to make things so damn hard?

    (Please go back to the Academy, you seem to have missed a couple of things.)


    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302
    I about choked on my Pepsi
    That can lead to serious issues... better see a doctor about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    When I started 33 years ago the only tactic we were taught was to crawl into the center of the fire room, have the nozzle set on wide fog, hold the hose 18 inches (exactly) from the nozzle and whip it over your head so the fog was dispersed into the super heated overhead.

    So picture this firefighter on his back waving this hose around and causing all the super heated, black, nasty to drop right down to floor level and steam burning the nozzle crew.

    "Proper application of the proper tactic done properly" should be the mantra of the attack crew.



    Been there, Still puking up chunks from that. No SCBA ya know. Hell, When I went through rookie school, We still had OBA's on the rig. And yes I can still put one in service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Serious question here:

    -Has anyone who uses 1.75" handlines equipped with 15/16" solid bore nozzles, ever experienced, or come close to experiencing flashover conditions???

    *NOTE* This is a loaded question, I know the answer.
    Question still stands. Any takers?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Question still stands. Any takers?
    Well anybody using a solid bore nozzle is probably dead since it had no hole for water to come out of, if you meant smooth bore, then we can talk...

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    We have nozzle bores that are rifled. Helps maintain water spin and reduces water tumble. We do lose a little velocity but the accuracy is fantastic.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    We have nozzle bores that are rifled. Helps maintain water spin and reduces water tumble. We do lose a little velocity but the accuracy is fantastic.
    LMAO You sir are crazy, When a you going to add a scope?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post

    Were we.... radical?

    Maybe we were just ahead of our time.

    I like the thought that we were ahead of our time. Unfortunately, the entrenched saw me and my ideas as radical.

    How could we have ever known that water doesn't just reduce heat, it actually puts of fire. What a great thing we discovered there.

    Yep, all without the added joy of unnecessary and painful steam burns.

    I see you are hard of hearing too. I have been known to 'conveniently' not hear instructions.

    I decided a long time ago when a Command officer almost got me killed at a barn fire that I don't have to follow an order that is more dangerous than it has to be (understanding entirely that this job is dangerous and every action has inherent risk) or that is just plain stupid. I will take punishment before dying needlessly from a stupid order.

    Did I mention that some Company Officers are over-rated?

    The sad fact is that the only thing some officers know is how to become an officer. Once they get the position they haven't a single clue how to actually lead, instruct or in some cases do the job of firefighting in the first place.
    Smooth bore or straight stream from a combination nozzle, the first choice for interior attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itshotinhere
    LMAO You sir are crazy, When a you going to add a scope?
    Well we did add a scope but this guy named PAT PENDING showed up and made us take it off.


    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    The sad fact is that the only thing some officers know is how to become an officer. Once they get the position they haven't a single clue how to actually lead, instruct or in some cases do the job of firefighting in the first place.
    Did Copy! This seems to be caused by a huge amount of unstable hot air that is released from the upper chest region, through the neck and into the skull, which causes swelling in the frontal lobe and between the ears. Some experts have reported this as sounding like a loud sucking sound.

    If subject is not treated early, he is prone to fall on his tush... eventually.

    Other documented 'severe' cases report black & blue brusing on or about the head and face, broken noses (most likely caused by a rapid release of hot air through the nasal passages), and missing teeth (mostly attributed to subject tripping over their own feet as if losing all coordination.)

    Advice to Company Officers: Respect your people. Remember... you are there to serve them... not the other way around.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    We were told the same thing in FF1 but all my instructors had 10 or more years in the FDNY they all said thats stupid Smooth Bore's all the way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harris543 View Post
    We were told the same thing in FF1 but all my instructors had 10 or more years in the FDNY they all said thats stupid Smooth Bore's all the way
    So smooth bores are stupid now?

    Once again, I pose the question that no one has yet answered....

    Has anyone on here, been caught in, or been caught in near-flashover conditions, when advancing a line on an interior attack with a smooth bore nozzle?????
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    The sound of the crickets chirping is enormous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    So smooth bores are stupid now?

    Once again, I pose the question that no one has yet answered....

    Has anyone on here, been caught in, or been caught in near-flashover conditions, when advancing a line on an interior attack with a smooth bore nozzle?????
    I read his comment as the right to live left to die as being stupid. use smooth bores all the way.

    No. I have never been caught in, or been caught in near-flashover conditions, when advancing a line on an interior attack with a smooth bore nozzle.

    And to add also, No, I have never been caught in, or been caught in near-flashover conditions, when advancing a line on an interior attack with an adjustable nozzle.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I read his comment as the right to live left to die as being stupid. use smooth bores all the way.
    Ahhhh upon further reflection I concur. My apologies to the poster. I should not be posting at 0530 when I am not fully awake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Once again, I pose the question that no one has yet answered....

    Has anyone on here, been caught in, or been caught in near-flashover conditions, when advancing a line on an interior attack with a smooth bore nozzle?????
    I've never been caught with any type of nozzle.

    Not for nothing, but there's really no reason anyone with experience should be caught in a flashover situation. More fire departments should focus more on reading conditions than they should debating on which nozzle they think is the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firegeek8096 View Post
    I remember being taught this simple saying back in recruit school regarding fog nozzle patterns. Turn the tip to the right for a straight stream to fight the fire, and turn the fog tip to the left when faced with a rapid fire event, giving you a "fog curtain," then back out of the building.

    Why is this taught in the first place? It seems like a completely unrealistic tactic. If a crew is faced with a rapid fire event like flashover, we know that there is very little time to escape and most likely the hoseline will be abandoned immediately. Opening up a wide fog in this situation seems counter-productive and would only end in steaming the crew.

    Not having been caught in a flashover myself, has anybody here experienced a flashover? If so, did you abandon the line or did you back out systematically with the magical fog curtain keeping you safe?
    I have been caught in a flashover. Because I am an aggressive firefighter, I went to the right with the nozzle. Due to the fact that we were all defensive (outside of the structure) when the flashover occured, we just backed up about 2 feet and continued our defensive position on the fire and eventually went interior. I would NEVER suggest using a fog on a flashover or interior period unless you are dealing with a small fire or a hot spot. Fog will be relatively unaffective on heavy fire. We often use fog on brush fires or smaller fires. If a flashover occurs while you are interior, get the hell out. If it happens close to your current position, drop the hose and run, but make sure that all of your fellow firefighters escape safely as well. We never leave a firemen/firewoman behind. Even if it's a 5th alarm in a 5 story and chief advises us not to go in. If one goes down, we all go in (including chief since he never lets us leave one behind). Back to the hose, yea, not a good idea to fog in a flashover/backdraft. Take care.

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