1. #1
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    Default Rural Quint Question

    What are the odds of a rural department getting a quint? Our nearest aerial device is 30 to 45 minutes away. The average age of our fleet is 17 years and we currently do not have one. We have a valid risk due to the large residential residences that are built around a large reservoir. We have encountered many risky and impossible situations during ventilation or upper level search and rescue. Any advice would be great.

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    Default Good Luck

    If I learned one thing at Kurt Bradley's seminar it was to always write for what the program is intended for and the priorities are. In the 2009 AFG guidance under vehicles they listed a quint as priority one, but also listed these above them:

    Pumper
    Brush/Attack
    Tanker/Tender
    Quint (<76')

    Now correct me if I am wrong (grant gurus) but this means you can go ahead and apply but good luck to you because there are thousands of other departments requesting higher priority one items. Again, make sure this is verified by a grant guru but it is my interpretation.

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    My interpretation of the program guidance is that all four of these vehicles are priority 1 for rural departments! With no higher priority given to what is on top. I may be wrong and look forward to hearing from the experts on this

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    A Quint <76' is eligible and has been awarded to rural departments in the past. When reading the guidance, the Priority 1 vehicles are listed in a specific order. While it doesn't specifically state the priority order, it's not random that a Pumper is listed highest in each category. Clearly for most rural departments, a Pumper, Quick Attack, and Tanker are the most needed vehicles which is why they are listed above Quint.

    The biggest hurdle you may face is the amount of 4 story or taller buildings in your district which will be a determining factor in your computer scoring.

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    If that's your biggest need in the apparatus category, it's not going to hurt you to go for it. Of course, your fleet age is going to go against you as there are many rural departments you'll be competing against with a lot older fleet.. You're also going to have to really show the need, particularly how many buildings you have 4-stories or greater.

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    My understanding is the updating to properly perform a mission which you are already doing is going to be a higher priority. Adding equipment for a new a mission (which FD obvious/apparently decided was not a priority or they would be doing it) is a lower priority. Adding an aerial a new mission or are you looking to replace the aerial you are already operating?

    Perhaps buy a used quint and run it for a couple years (Grant app now requires you tell them how long you've had each vehicle). Then you'll know if you really need it, what the benefits are, what cost to operate, etc. Many 20yr old ladders available with low miles available cheap (at least to buy). Many go for little more than scrap $/lb. That's your downside.

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    yeah, pretty sure the 4 story building thing is going to kill me. Does walkout basement county as a story. If that is included then we have quite a bit of 4 story buildings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasnic0510 View Post
    yeah, pretty sure the 4 story building thing is going to kill me. Does walkout basement county as a story. If that is included then we have quite a bit of 4 story buildings.
    Nope it will be above ground and they must be "occupied" stories; not attics, storage areas, or church steeples etc. My experience says you have to have at least 10 of them to get any preference and they should be high occupancy, like hotels or apt. buildings. Having industrial facilities in excess of 100K sq ft is also a factor that can help or hinder also. Onebugle was right, though, notice how they list the apparatus on the vehicle funding matrix... they never do anything in a PG document with out a reason. Its like when the PG says " you "should" include something... that should always be interpreted as meaning "must" include.
    Kurt Bradley
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    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Walk out basements are above grade which is why they are counted as a story per building code, aka law in places where it's been adopted as such. That's why the DHS statement in the guidelines about a story being defined as the space between a floor and ceiling is bogus; laws surrounding building codes can't contradict each other so they can't enforce that statement at all. Otherwise it would open a major can of worms across all parts of the building code. All structures 50ft in height from ground to roof on any side of the building are 5 story buildings. As Kurt mentioned, steeples, antennae and the like are not considered in that height definition or in the "normally occupied" parameter.

    And like someone else said, if that's your greatest vehicle need then bulletproof it and go after it. But if you need a tanker, pumper, or brush truck more then you should go after one of those first since you'd have a better chance of getting one of those funded and do the used apparatus route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Walk out basements are above grade which is why they are counted as a story per building code, aka law in places where it's been adopted as such. That's why the DHS statement in the guidelines about a story being defined as the space between a floor and ceiling is bogus; laws surrounding building codes can't contradict each other so they can't enforce that statement at all. Otherwise it would open a major can of worms across all parts of the building code. All structures 50ft in height from ground to roof on any side of the building are 5 story buildings. As Kurt mentioned, steeples, antennae and the like are not considered in that height definition or in the "normally occupied" parameter.

    And like someone else said, if that's your greatest vehicle need then bulletproof it and go after it. But if you need a tanker, pumper, or brush truck more then you should go after one of those first since you'd have a better chance of getting one of those funded and do the used apparatus route.
    Pretty much right out of NFPA 1.......they must have forgotten that NFPA is not law.

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    NFPA is law when it applies to building code, plus BCS goes hand in hand 99% of the time like they do with the "story" thing. That's why there are requirements on egress when it's considered occupied spaces, such as basement working areas, bedrooms, etc. Some friends had that issue when they wanted to put a bedroom in their basement, township wouldn't let them because they couldn't put in proper exits other than the interior stairs to the first floor.

    And technically since DHS has been adopting NFPA code as emergency preparedness directives they are laws now... After all, can't buy anything that's non-NFPA compliant with federal grant money anymore... And that's why dealing with the feds is so much fun.

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    I am a rural Department. Enough said. Donít squander your opportunity to get what you really need.

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    Our department ran a ladder that we got from our State Department of Lands for $1 for years.

    It was a 1953 Seagrave 75'. In 2006, it failed ladder inspection. We replaced it with a 1987 110' Pirsch with a 1500GPM pump. Our cost $47,000

    I would strongly encourage you to follow some advice above and seriously look into getting a used ariel device. We got our Pirsch from a rural department who bought it, refurb'd it, and then after sinking a bunch of money into realized, they didn't need it as much as they thought they did.

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    Our aerial is a money pit. They are very nice when you need them but just the routine up keep will break the bank. The cost of it along is more than the other pumpers put together. We spent $10,000 on hose replacement this year alone. That is why I wrote one of my AFGís this year to replace it. I may be squandering my chance to get something else we really need especially since they have us classified as rural but if AFG changes us to urban like it should than my chance goes up. We cover a large land mast between the city limits and the lake area that no one lives on. Plus all the homes on the lake are second homes that donít count as full time residences. I guess it is the population of the square mile that puts us in the rural class. Can anyone clarify that for me? I do know that if they keep us rural than we would have no chance at a successful grant. I am just throwing the grant away? Kurt, what are your thoughts on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfd701 View Post
    Our aerial is a money pit. They are very nice when you need them but just the routine up keep will break the bank. The cost of it along is more than the other pumpers put together. We spent $10,000 on hose replacement this year alone. That is why I wrote one of my AFGís this year to replace it. I may be squandering my chance to get something else we really need especially since they have us classified as rural but if AFG changes us to urban like it should than my chance goes up. We cover a large land mast between the city limits and the lake area that no one lives on. Plus all the homes on the lake are second homes that donít count as full time residences. I guess it is the population of the square mile that puts us in the rural class. Can anyone clarify that for me? I do know that if they keep us rural than we would have no chance at a successful grant. I am just throwing the grant away? Kurt, what are your thoughts on it?
    For the most part population density will determine your classification. Other demographics that you supply such as hydrant coverage, open space, commercial density etc. will have an influence as well.

    Rural: 500 or less per square mile

    Suburban: greater than 500 less than 2500 per square mile

    Urban: 2500 or greater per square mile

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    If that is the case it shouldnít be a problem being placed in the urban if we didnít cover all that area outside the city limits that we get no funding for. We cover it because we are the closest fire station. When I say no funding, I mean $0 funding. It is costing the tax payers of our city to cover them. They are getting an ISO class 5 rating from us and are not contributing anything. See what nice people we are here. Yea right!! Wonder what a ISO class 10 will cost the home owners. If AFG doesnít change it than dfd will by the time I send in our next grant app.

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    Is the rural area part of your fire district by law or contract? If not then it isn't your's for grant purposes either.

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    Unfortunately it is since prior performance makes it their first due. In this day and age FDs are obligated to respond since lawyers could have a field day with arguing that when we do mutual aid we're not collecting anything from those we're serving. No one tallies up the time, resources, or number of calls a department goes in another area versus how many times the other department comes in and then settles up the tab.

    Now what could be done would be a nice bill to the homeowner's insurance company since the residents contribute nothing. But doing nothing isn't really an option. Quality may suffer in many areas because of funding but refusal to respond will only create more problems than solutions.

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    After recently attending a grant writing seminar it is my understanding that if you look to get a quint funded you have a better chance of obtaining one if you are looking to expand your firefighting capabilities rather than using it to replace an aging piece of apparatus. Also, my understanding is that a building from grade on ANY exposure over 50' is a five story building and should be rated as such. (I'm agreeing with BC79er and others.) Schools are also an important factor when writing your grant app.
    Last edited by AFDCaptainRet; 02-25-2010 at 10:36 PM.

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    Depends on the apparatus, older open cab and non-certifiable aerials will rank higher on a replacement app than a 75' quint for someone without such an animal. Plus the magic PG quote: "Conversely, a lower priority will be given to departments that are seeking apparatus with the goal of expanding into new mission areas."

    Even though it says right before that about pumpers and 75' quints being part of the same mission area the Quint is dealt with differently than a request for another pumper for the same department.

    Like schools there are plenty of buildings that can be found in most communities where an aerial need is dictated.

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    "Conversely, a lower priority will be given to departments that are seeking apparatus with the goal of expanding into new mission areas."
    Interesting comment, BC79er, because we were told just the opposite. Expanding into new mission areas and not just looking to replace an aging piece of apparatus with something new with a lot of bells and whistles, i.e. a quint is a high priority grant item. I understand that your comment is true when it comes to a piece of apparatus such as a heavy rescue vehicle but a quint was not one of those considered a low priority in a new mission area. Not tyring to argue just passing on what I was told. Thanks.

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    Not a comment, that's out of the PG. Would have to know the source of the person telling you otherwise since evidence and comments from others helping design the PG are saying otherwise. Quints are a higher priority, but when it comes to semi-identical departments the one with the old truck to replace is the one that will outscore. Choosing replacing a pumper with a quint is generally more competitive in terms of truck type but cost undo any gains in that realm unless it's replacing an older truck.

    Also not saying it's impossible, but many, many apps worth of review point me to the statements I make too. Plus I've threaded the needle once or twice, but more times it's the replacements that beat the computer in the first place so that's the other feedback showing they want older trucks off the road first. The age of the truck and the time owned show a long-standing need versus a first-time purchase showing a recent need. Recent needs don't rank compared to long-standing ones. Doesn't mean they aren't needs but again in a direct comparison the older need wins.

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    The person who told me is one who does peer review for the AFG grant apps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFDCaptainRet View Post
    The person who told me is one who does peer review for the AFG grant apps.
    Oh God I hope not. What BC79er told you is what is in the 2009 guidance.

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