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    Default A Politician gets it!!

    WELL DONE Mr Rogers and hope for the future.


    EDMONTON The hazards of Ian Langridge's job have never been a big mystery.

    "We realized that there were dangers to the job," the fire captain said Tuesday. "But the dangers of the job were dying in a fire, or being crushed. Cancer was the farthest thing from my mind."

    In 2007, Langridge was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. Since 2003, colorectal cancer has been among a handful of cancers the province recognizes as a workplace hazard for firefighters.

    "Firefighters all across North America die of job-related cancers," said Langridge, 54. "I guess I was lucky."

    This week, Leduc-Beaumont-Devon Conservative MLA George Rogers introduced a private member's bill that would expand workers' compensation coverage for Alberta firefighters, from a list of eight coverable cancers to 10.

    If passed -- and so far there appears to be support from all parties -- firefighters suffering from testicular and esophageal cancers will receive workers' compensation.

    "This is about individual families," Rogers said. "In most cases, sadly by the time these people get these cancers, you're really trying to make life a little easier for their loved ones."

    Last June, one of Langridge's colleagues, Al Harris, died of esophageal cancer at age 53. His claim to the Workers Compensation Board, that his cancer was a result of his career fighting fires in Edmonton, had been denied.

    Greg Holubowich, the president of the Edmonton Firefighters Union, said he and others across the province have been pushing to change the law for more than a year. (Rogers' private member's bill was first drafted by Edmonton Castle Downs MLA Thomas Lukaszuk, who is now the minister of employment and immigration.)

    But Holubowich said as science develops, there will be more cancers that need to be included under the law. For example, more research needs to be done on whether breast cancer can be a risk for female and male firefighters.

    "The industry is really aware of the carcinogens being absorbed into the skin," Holubowich said.

    "There's always going to be work to be done."

    Rogers' private member's bill is expected to be discussed by provincial politicians next month.

    He said the changes to the Workers' Compensation Act, as proposed now, would bring Alberta's laws in line with others across the country.

    taudette@thejournal.canwest.com

    Copyright (c) The Edmonton Journal

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    Massachusetts has a presumptive cancer law or firefighters, covering cancers affecting the skin or the central nervous, lymphatic, digestive, hematalogical, urinary, skeletal, oral or prostate systems, lung or respiratory tract.

    Massachusetts also has the heart/lung law which covers any condition of impairment of health caused by hypertension or heart disease resulting in total or partial disability or death to a uniformed member and any condition of impairment of health caused by respiratory diseases resulting in total or partial disability or death to a uniformed member.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    How does one know if the job caused the cancer or if it was years of bad diet or years of smoking, or just something that would have happened no matter what the person did?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    How does one know if the job caused the cancer or if it was years of bad diet or years of smoking, or just something that would have happened no matter what the person did?
    As far as I know, its not medically possible to determine the exact trigger for cancer, other than possibly radiation induced. Others on here are far more qualified than I to comment.
    In Canada, I believe the impetus behind this was a single fire chief about 30 years ago who fought extremely hard for this after stating, "I'm bloody well sick and tired of burying my friends and colleagues who are dying far younger than me" He started getting help from depts and Unions across Canada and it is still growing. Hopefully it will keep growing. There is a bit of a protest here, not against the FF, but against the oil and petro chemical industries and the amounts of carcinogens workers are exposed to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    How does one know if the job caused the cancer or if it was years of bad diet or years of smoking, or just something that would have happened no matter what the person did?
    I believe its based in statistics, the rate of these cancers being higher on the job than for those in the general population.

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    They are adding "firefighters suffering from testicular" as a particular hazard for FF? That will help recruiting and retention. Perhaps just make that "and any other cancer".

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammerhome View Post
    I believe its based in statistics, the rate of these cancers being higher on the job than for those in the general population.
    Thanks Hammerhome... you beat me to it. Scarecrow woudn't believe me anyways... maybe hearing it from someone else may convince him... but I'm not holding my breath.

    In my career, we have had at least 12 of our fire personnel (active and retirees) have some form of cancer... the latest being a active duty Captain with skin cancer; he just came back to work after being out for over 6 months and having surgeries and skin grafts.

    I've also been to way to many funerals and memorial services for retired Brothers who came down with that insidious disease...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    They are adding "firefighters suffering from testicular" as a particular hazard for FF? That will help recruiting and retention. Perhaps just make that "and any other cancer".
    Well you know, being us FF all have big brass ones, obviously its an occupational hazard

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammerhome View Post
    I believe its based in statistics, the rate of these cancers being higher on the job than for those in the general population.
    Yes, I get the statistics. But being a fire fighter is only 20% of ones life, what about the other 80%? What about life style choices? I know in our FD about 50% (maybe more) smoke or have smoked. That also is above the national average. This isn't just for fire fighters either, I have had a general problem with making a claim that the cancer was caused by the work environment. Be it working in a factory, road work, or whatever. Cancers occur naturally in people of types and all ages. Some life style choices increase the risk, smoking, diet, alcohol consumption, and even heredity.

    Could the higher cancer rate be because FFs don't wear their SCBA even during overhaul (like they should)? Diesel exhaust is a known carcinogen, because my employer is located in a city where there is more diesel exhaust shouldn't I also be entitled to the same thing? Sorry, I don't buy that things like cancer, heart attack, depression, liver disease, kidney failure, can be blamed on the workplace. It's just poor luck and perhaps poor lifestyle choices that cause these diseases

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yes, I get the statistics. But being a fire fighter is only 20% of ones life, what about the other 80%? What about life style choices? I know in our FD about 50% (maybe more) smoke or have smoked. That also is above the national average. This isn't just for fire fighters either, I have had a general problem with making a claim that the cancer was caused by the work environment. Be it working in a factory, road work, or whatever. Cancers occur naturally in people of types and all ages. Some life style choices increase the risk, smoking, diet, alcohol consumption, and even heredity.

    Could the higher cancer rate be because FFs don't wear their SCBA even during overhaul (like they should)? Diesel exhaust is a known carcinogen, because my employer is located in a city where there is more diesel exhaust shouldn't I also be entitled to the same thing? Sorry, I don't buy that things like cancer, heart attack, depression, liver disease, kidney failure, can be blamed on the workplace. It's just poor luck and perhaps poor lifestyle choices that cause these diseases
    Of course you don't buy it... the statistics aren't to "your" liking.

    You have no concept of the job or the hazards of the job... but I'd be willing to bet that if you came down with cancer, you would blame being a "firefighter" for it and try and take advantage of the presumptive laws of the State of New York.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yes, I get the statistics.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It's just poor luck and perhaps poor lifestyle choices that cause these diseases
    Your two statements above contradict each other.

    The reason they are presumptive laws is because they cannot definitively prove that the cancer was caused by the work environment but that statistically the rate of occurrence is high enough above a baseline (not always as simple as "national average") to support a correlation.

    If cancer was "just luck" then the rate of occurrence would be within the margin of error.

    Since the occurrence is so high they PRESUME a correlation and do the right thing by covering it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Diesel exhaust is a known carcinogen, because my employer is located in a city where there is more diesel exhaust shouldn't I also be entitled to the same thing? Sorry, I don't buy that things like cancer, heart attack, depression, liver disease, kidney failure, can be blamed on the workplace. It's just poor luck and perhaps poor lifestyle choices that cause these diseases
    C'mon, "neighbor", I've always tried to maintain civility with you, because you ARE in a neighboring county where I often teach, but GET REAL WITH THIS ONE!!! How can you attribute POOR LUCK and POOR LIFESTYLE as the cause of these dreadful diseases in firefighters. There is MORE than sufficient information out there tying cancer to firefighters occupations.

    When you attribute "luck" to firefighters acquiring disease, you minimize the importance of cleaning your PPE AT LEAST every 6-months, installing exhaust units, hand washing, and virtually every other occupational health and safety precaution that exists. Yes, smokers and "chewers" have a much higher risk, but the stats are showing PLENTY of FF cancer cases for non-smokers. Yes, some poorly trained / disciplined FF's take their masks off too soon, but it's not only them that are suffering from cancer, either.

    Get a reality check on this one, Scarecrow. Firefighters, because of the job they do, even when done 100% correctly, experience a higher cancer rate than most other occupations. When was the last time that YOUR FD checked YOU for cancer during one of those non-NFPA compliant annual physicals that the NYS Department of Labor allows for firefighters????
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

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    Originally Posted by ScareCrow57
    Diesel exhaust is a known carcinogen, because my employer is located in a city where there is more diesel exhaust shouldn't I also be entitled to the same thing? Sorry, I don't buy that things like cancer, heart attack, depression, liver disease, kidney failure, can be blamed on the workplace. It's just poor luck and perhaps poor lifestyle choices that cause these diseases.
    Drunk and stupid is also a poor lifestyle choice....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yes, I get the statistics. But being a fire fighter is only 20% of ones life, what about the other 80%? What about life style choices? I know in our FD about 50% (maybe more) smoke or have smoked. That also is above the national average. This isn't just for fire fighters either, I have had a general problem with making a claim that the cancer was caused by the work environment. Be it working in a factory, road work, or whatever. Cancers occur naturally in people of types and all ages. Some life style choices increase the risk, smoking, diet, alcohol consumption, and even heredity.

    Could the higher cancer rate be because FFs don't wear their SCBA even during overhaul (like they should)? Diesel exhaust is a known carcinogen, because my employer is located in a city where there is more diesel exhaust shouldn't I also be entitled to the same thing? Sorry, I don't buy that things like cancer, heart attack, depression, liver disease, kidney failure, can be blamed on the workplace. It's just poor luck and perhaps poor lifestyle choices that cause these diseases
    Do you, with at best minimal cancer diagnosis training, think that your opinion trumps that of renowned cancer research doctors across North America? If you don't "buy" it, get off your arse and go do some intelligent research, and then come back to us with an informed opinion. Do you think legislatures across North America would have passed presumptive laws just on a whim? Instead of bothering us with your nonsense, as an individual with little to no cancer diagnosis training, why don't you go lobby your legislators to change the law. Don't be shocked when they refer you to the years and years of research on which these laws are based.
    Last edited by FireStick; 02-24-2010 at 04:16 PM.

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    Don't waste your time arguing with an estemed graduate from the University of Google with a minor in Wikipedia...
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Don't waste your time arguing with an estemed graduate from the University of Google with a minor in Wikipedia...
    I know, and I made the mistake of quoting him. Sorry for those that have him on ignore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Of course you don't buy it... the statistics aren't to "your" liking.

    You have no concept of the job or the hazards of the job... but I'd be willing to bet that if you came down with cancer, you would blame being a "firefighter" for it and try and take advantage of the presumptive laws of the State of New York.
    I didn't get the impression that he was a firefighter...but I'm relatively new to all this

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammerhome View Post
    I didn't get the impression that he was a firefighter...but I'm relatively new to all this
    He claims to be... he's the "tooter turtle" of the forums.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammerhome View Post
    I didn't get the impression that he was a firefighter...but I'm relatively new to all this
    A lot of people "claim" to be firefighters, and I was under the same impression. A positive thing is happening to take care of those brothers and sisters who have or will have cancer. Lets not allow someone's ramblings and incessant babble tromp on a good thing....
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Originally Posted by ScareCrow57


    Drunk and stupid is also a poor lifestyle choice....
    Chief, You are Correct. The Drunks have the option of Sobering up, while the Stupid simply keep on posting.........
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDCar1 View Post
    C'mon, "neighbor", I've always tried to maintain civility with you, because you ARE in a neighboring county where I often teach, but GET REAL WITH THIS ONE!!! How can you attribute POOR LUCK and POOR LIFESTYLE as the cause of these dreadful diseases in firefighters. There is MORE than sufficient information out there tying cancer to firefighters occupations.

    When you attribute "luck" to firefighters acquiring disease, you minimize the importance of cleaning your PPE AT LEAST every 6-months, installing exhaust units, hand washing, and virtually every other occupational health and safety precaution that exists. Yes, smokers and "chewers" have a much higher risk, but the stats are showing PLENTY of FF cancer cases for non-smokers. Yes, some poorly trained / disciplined FF's take their masks off too soon, but it's not only them that are suffering from cancer, either.

    Get a reality check on this one, Scarecrow. Firefighters, because of the job they do, even when done 100% correctly, experience a higher cancer rate than most other occupations. When was the last time that YOUR FD checked YOU for cancer during one of those non-NFPA compliant annual physicals that the NYS Department of Labor allows for firefighters????
    In general, I have a problem with a lot of these things. For instance, we have found that people on welfare have a higher number of cavities than those not on welfare. Conclusion is we need to spend more on dental care for these people.

    Ask yourself this one though. How many of those who got cancer would have gotten it even if they weren't fire fighters.

    Here is a study on the issue Study: Firefighters face higher cancer rates

    "They can get DNA damage," she said. However, Ruskin said not every firefighter on the job will get cancer, much the same as that not every smoker will develop lung cancer.

    "It's a combination of exposure and genetic predisposition," she said.

    Research shows that environment, including diet and lifestyle, causes up to 90 percent of all cancer.
    It is like that old saying, if you smoke you will get cancer. And heck, exposure to sun light causes skin cancer, sop don't go outside in short sleeve shirts, shorts and always wear a hat.

    Matter of fact, My mother worked for Social Services and got Cancer, probably form exposure to the welfare class... I just have a problem with these kinds of statements.

    X is more likely to experience Y; therefore all of X gets special considerations.

    Here is a good read on this from NIOSH Occupational Cancer

    Cancer is a group of different diseases that have the same feature, the uncontrolled growth and spread of abnormal cells. Each different type of cancer may have its own set of causes. Many factors play a role in the development of cancer. The importance of these factors is different for different types of cancer. A person's risk of developing a particular cancer is influenced by a combination of factors that interact in ways that are not fully understood. Some of the factors include:

    * Personal characteristics such as age, sex, and race
    * Family history of cancer
    * Diet and personal habits such as cigarette smoking and alcohol consumption
    * The presence of certain medical conditions
    * Exposure to cancer-causing agents in the environment
    * Exposure to cancer-causing agents in the workplace

    In many cases, these factors may act together or in sequence to cause cancer.
    In this case, they are talking about teachers in a school. People in any workplace tend to have similar lifestyles outside the workplace as well. Guys in a small factory get out of work each Friday and go have one at the same bar. So why didn't the bar cause the cancer?

    Now obviously, as fire fighters, we are exposed to a lot of bad stuff, as are most blue collar workers. Therefore, we need to protect ourselves. Used to be when working on the backhoes and dozer we just stuck our hands in and got the job done. All kinds of greases and oils absorbing through the skin, that couldn't be good. We used to wash our hands with gasoline to get the dirt off. Gasoline is a wonderful solvent and cleaning agent. The workplace represents a place where we spend about 20% of our adult working lives. That only occurs for 40 years of an 80 year lifespan. Hence, the workplace accounts for roughly 10% of your environmental exposure. There is another 90% that also figures into the equation of environmental exposure. No add in the fact that lifestyle and diet also affect cancer rates and the workplace ends up accounting for about 5% of the overall equation.

    The reason that the workplace gets targeted is so that lawyers can get rich. If the lawyers weren't making so much money off of these lawsuits the issue wouldn't even exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Chief, You are Correct. The Drunks have the option of Sobering up, while the Stupid simply keep on posting.........
    And then we have those Stupid Drunks.......

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    Psoted by Scarecrow
    Used to be when working on the backhoes and dozer we just stuck our hands in and got the job done. All kinds of greases and oils absorbing through the skin, that couldn't be good. We used to wash our hands with gasoline to get the dirt off. Gasoline is a wonderful solvent and cleaning agent.
    Well... that explains a lot.. but I think you may have drank some, too...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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