03-01-2010, 12:20 AM #1
Does this have potential to be helpful? (training)
Ok. so i am on a local volunteer department. i suppose you could call us semi rural. well my grandmother, who has lived on a farm her whole life, has just built a new house and moved out of her singlewide trailer. well they moved the trailer off of its foundation and instead of getting rid of it, they took it down to a clearing in the woods and i saw the potential from the start. what i've done is i've nailed plywood to some windows and doorways to simulate forcible entry and i have 2 fog machines that i plan to use to smoke up the house. i was planning to use it for something like mayday training and just whatever else is applicable. i'm of course not going to torch it, but i think my idea is pretty good. i've gained the support of some of my department members to help me with it, and even some neighboring dept's members. but then again some think its a stupid idea and that the only things that work for that type of training are the million dollar smoke trailers. what do you guys think?
03-01-2010, 12:48 AM #2
Cheap and doable... so the problem is with those who won't show up for the drill."The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
03-01-2010, 12:51 AM #3
Cheap, good training. Why not? Its better than nothing. Sounds like a great idea.Stay Safe
“Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
- Capt. Marc Cox CFD
Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
03-01-2010, 01:07 AM #4
Great training and very cheap.Jason Knecht
Altoona Fire Dept.
IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!
03-01-2010, 01:11 AM #5
We used to do this on my department. As was cheap, great, cheap training. Just have to make sure you get people to show up.
03-01-2010, 01:18 AM #6
Smoke it up, cut it up, ladder it, hose it, use it for RIT and Rescue Training. Just don't burn it.
Depending how old it is, and how hard your guys are on it, it should last a while. You cannot buy or build props for what you guys can get out of it.
Originally Posted by MHVFD33
If you have a good training officer or access to one, I'll bet that he can make some of those guys believe they are in the real deal.
The mind is a wonderful thing. When you begin to neutralize some of the human senses, the mind has to compensate. If you cannot see, smell, taste, and can only touch through heavy gloves, while your crawling through a narrow hallway, or into a tight bathroom, your mind takes over providing a picture of what it perceives. Oh you must have the charged line and tools for this one.
Use one of your guys as a victim and have them find and remove him... without killing him.
You don't have to add much heat since it won't take anyone long to begin to sweat in their PPE.
And there are ways to simulate flames that they can detect despite black-out masks, (using bright spot-lights, tin foil, clear plastic wrap around a wood frame, a fan (to slightly blow the wrap) and a lexan shield to protect lights and wrap from cold water). They cannot see it clearly but they can get the sense of a bright flickering light. Caution: be sure to fully protect this prop from water. Not totally realistic but when you can't see it, it doesn't matter. The idea is to just give them some inside exposure how to use the hose and RIT at the same time.
Make it a timed exercise, say about 10 minutes from the time they go in. Be sure to station some guys (in PPE) around for spotters in case someone freaks out or gets into trouble. It also gets them used to their PASS device. They must remember to be in motion or they will get the "uurrp", "uuurrrrrp", "uuurrrrrrrrp", etc.
I have had guys puke in their mask, rip their mask off, get up and try to run, etc. This is a great way to reinforce the bad stuff that can happen if you don't stay calm. If you don't have access to a burn building or trailer, then this can be the next best thing.
Just brush up on the safety requirements. If you use a trainer, and you should, he will know the safety guidelines.
One more thing: To protect your grandma... create a Hold Harmless Agreement that everyone must sign. basically it states as part of the Department Training Requirements, no one can sue grandma if they should stub their toe or break something. It might be a good idea for grandma to donate the trailer (with the title) to the dept to remove injury in structure risk. But the property owner may have exposure if you don't protect them with an Agreement.
I'll bet odds that most will come out wide-eyed the first time if you do it right.HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL
03-01-2010, 01:27 AM #7
thanks everyone. now that my idea has good reinforcement, i'm definatly going to go through with it.
and PalidinKnight, your ideas were great and i thank you for your long, thought out post. i'm going to take a bunch of your ideas and put them to use. especially along with her signing it over to the dept. i never considered that. more answers are welcome! i'm going to compile what i get and make this the best training trailer i possibly can!
03-01-2010, 01:35 AM #8
MHVFD33: I think I have a diagram somewhere on how to make the flame prop. It isn't anything fancy and it doesn't look like much when you're looking at it without obstruction. The idea is to fool the mind. If I can find it, I'll let you know.
I was looking for a video of one in use and couldn't find it. It is out there somewhere on U-tube. I can't remember who put it up.HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL
03-01-2010, 05:09 PM #9
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Gee, you've got a free building to use for non burn training and some are AGAINST that? Tell them (politely) to get bent!!
Paladin has good ideas. I would also humbly suggest a couple things:
Make sure your roof is beefed up, and then create replaceable sections out of scrap 2x for roof vent practice.
Make moveable partitions inside so that every time guys go in they can have a different layout to navigate. This will help reduce cheating.
Become friends with a local warehouse or commercial/industrial owner who doesn't mind you snagging pallets. Break them down for cheap building material.
Start paying attention on trash night. Secure couches, chairs, tables, mattresses etc for a more realistic training site. It's easy to do a right hand search when the room is completely empty.
Gather tossed out shoes and clothing or blankets and sheets. Bury your "victim" in a pile of them. Makes it a bit harder to determine by feel alone if there's a body underneath or not.
You're in a rural area. So that means you've got ready access to straw bales. They can be quickly positioned to create pathways or walls, partitions etc if you're low on wood.
Someone you know probably has odds and ends of black corrugated culvert pipe. Run it in a hallway and it's a confined space to navigate. Pull it out for the next weeks training.
The sky is the limit. Secure free material and go for it. Tell the guys who say it's dumb to either get on board or get left behind.
03-01-2010, 05:14 PM #10
You sir, are lucky you have an opportunity like this. There is a realm of oppurtunities in something like this that not many departments have. Basically you are limited to what your mind can think of. Use it however you want. This hands on training is much better than just talking about it in the fire station.
03-01-2010, 07:05 PM #11
It's definately a great idea. You have a priceless prop there. If some guys who know it all don't want to attend maybe see if the Chief will make it a chiefs drill with a fine for not showing. They're not only hurting themselves but possibly others by not knowing how to react in some situations.. Search rope, RIT with firefighter removal, engine co ops, truck ops, one man ladder raise.
03-01-2010, 07:44 PM #12
I'm so encouraged when I see guys figuring out how to give their firefighters interesting and new ways to practice their skills.
In a zoo they call that animal enrichment... uh. i guess the same term could apply!
I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.
"The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."
"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."
03-02-2010, 12:46 AM #13
Lets see. Train on a real house. Ladder on a real house. Climb and cut on a real house. Crawl around in a real house. Spray water on a real house.
Is it just me or does any of this seem like a waste of time to you? I certainly don't.
This is a huge gift that many departments would give away their Chief to have. It sounds like a bunch of lazy guys that believe they have all of the training they need.
I wouldn't let that interfere with this oppotunity. Find a instructor, put your team together (anyone who wants to participate), and improve your skills. Maybe you will have to pull one of the nay-sayers out and save their butt someday.
But they would probably still not believe it was worth the effort. Man go for it...HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL
03-02-2010, 10:01 AM #14
Pay close attention to the construction of the trailer. If you've got one trailer, you've got a zillion, and it can be very enlightening to chop one up when you have the time to examine it, as opposed to doing it at warp speed during a real fire.
You can do smoke maze, search & rescue, self-rescue, wall-breaching, building construction, ventilation, forcible entry, ladders, overhaul, and on and on and on and on. Shoot, if nobody else wants to do anything, grab some tools and go hack on it by yourself.
Enjoy."Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
--General James Mattis, USMC
03-02-2010, 10:09 AM #15
03-02-2010, 01:34 PM #16
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