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    Default Communications Help

    We were awarded a 2009 AFG grant for communications equiptment. We did not put in for P25 nor include P25 into our grant. So the problem is the grant that was awarded is small and will not cover the cost of Buying all P25 radios.

    Its to my understanding all radios must be Apco 25 compliant ?

    Does anyone have any recommendations on how to go about this. We do not want to loose the grant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firenems13669 View Post
    We were awarded a 2009 AFG grant for communications equiptment. We did not put in for P25 nor include P25 into our grant. So the problem is the grant that was awarded is small and will not cover the cost of Buying all P25 radios.

    Its to my understanding all radios must be Apco 25 compliant ?

    Does anyone have any recommendations on how to go about this. We do not want to loose the grant.
    If you did not specify P25, then why buy it? There is no blanket requirement for federal grants to buy P25.

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    Well that is my thought. But I was informed all grants through AFG that were for radios had to be APC0 25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firenems13669 View Post
    Well that is my thought. But I was informed all grants through AFG that were for radios had to be APC0 25
    uh, no. The APCO 25 is only required if you are having to buys radios to work with an existing 25 system. If your is not there is no reason too.

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    Actually, that is what NYS is insisting. I had a very long discussion with the program person regarding that and he insists that DHS requires it. When I told him I just got off the phone with DHS and they said no, he then said NYS is just following the requirements in DHS / SAFECOM. Bottom line, NYS is not letting anything through that is not P25 (regardless if your system is using it or never plans on migrating to it)

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    But since the award couldn't have been approved without the state saying yes, and theirs wasn't billed as APCO25 and still approved then sounds like NY will allow non-APCO to go through.

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    Looking for a winning narrative for Mobiles, portables, and minitors. In becoming compliant with the 2013 Narrowband FCC mandate.

    shinds@oilcity.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic190 View Post
    Actually, that is what NYS is insisting. I had a very long discussion with the program person regarding that and he insists that DHS requires it. When I told him I just got off the phone with DHS and they said no, he then said NYS is just following the requirements in DHS / SAFECOM. Bottom line, NYS is not letting anything through that is not P25 (regardless if your system is using it or never plans on migrating to it)
    What person?

    He is incorrect.

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    I haven't dealt with New York state, but in two states that I've done comm grants they originally took the stance that all radio equipment needed to be P-25 digital purchases. After many discussions pointing out that the infrastructure didn't exist to make them work and probably wouldn't until long after these radios were ready to be retired, the states agreed to approve non P-25. Thats what happens when a bureaucrat reads a letter from the feds and doesn't have a clue about what they read. It took several meetings with radio technicians and the chief master sgt from the state air guard communications unit to explain the terminology and technology involved. They then realized that the state didn't have any of the required backbone to make a digital P-25 system work.

    Some states have decided that all departments large & small MUST buy into extremely expensive hardware systems and pay monthly service charges to use their proprietary systems that don't improve our FF safety or get the job done any better than a simple VHF simplex or duplex system at a much lower cost.
    As an example take two departments that were funded in 2007 for comms grants with the same number of portable and mobile radios.
    Dept #1 went VHF fully N/B compliant and top of the line equipment for 35k
    Dept#2 went with 800 digital P-25 major name brand to match their counties system,128k

    You decide which makes more sense.

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    All this comm. stuff is greek to me. How about keeping it simple....2 cans and a piece of string should surfice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    All this comm. stuff is greek to me. How about keeping it simple....2 cans and a piece of string should surfice.
    Not a problem. Just use these, and they ARE genuine Motorola.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Not a problem. Just use these, and they ARE genuine Motorola.
    But are they p25 compliant????

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    But are they p25 compliant????
    For only 1200 each, we will write that on there

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Not a problem. Just use these, and they ARE genuine Motorola.
    Perfect. Are they equipped with a disabling feature when the Chief talks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    What person?

    He is incorrect.
    He (I won't say his name because I'm hoping for a Comms grant either in 2010 or 2011) is the Homeland Security person who was tasked to sign off on the applications on weather the met the NYS SCIP (although he has limited communications background) Possibly this one got through while he was out of the office...

    I argued the fact with him that he was wrong for over 2 hours, citing the emails and discussions I had with DHS (the DHS contact cc'd him on the email discussion which did nothing to quell the hostilities...) He told me flat out that he was "just following the requirements from SAFECOM & DHS" and would not waiver "either it is P25 or you don't get the money. What's it matter anyway, it's free money: you're not paying for it"

    I argued the fact that the infrastructure does not support P25 and it would not be added per the County Communications head, and that I HAVE interoperability across all makes, models and technologies: it's called SIMPLEX!!! (as in the VTAC / VCALL channels are...) But, alas, I was told write it with P25 or it won't be approved... I told him that doubles my project cost for something we can't use and the partners won't be willing to ante up the additional, he said he couldn't do anything about, his hands were tied by DHS. I told him problem solved, I'll have to shelf it and continue using 30 year old Lowband radios that don't work...

    Welcome to the great state of NY: halting progress at twice the cost for over 300 years!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    But since the award couldn't have been approved without the state saying yes, and theirs wasn't billed as APCO25 and still approved then sounds like NY will allow non-APCO to go through.
    Two or three years ago, one of the FD's in my County got a Comms grant for VHF mobiles and portables. They were advised they HAD to buy P25 CAPABLE equipment or the grant would be pulled... They went around with DHS, NYS, and other alphabet soup until they were blue in the face. DHS told them NYS was the one requiring it, NYS blamed it on DHS. The FD applied for and won something to the tune of $25,000.00 but wound up paying just over $50,000.00 They have been soured to the whole process because NYS REQUIRED them to buy P25 equipment or they wouldn't get the grant. And the kicker of the whole story: they have to continue to use lowband because the rest of the County has not been able to afford the transition to VHF (where everybody but fire resides...) $50,000.00 and no return on their investment...

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    190: see my comment above about the bureaucrat reading something and not having a clue what it means. We had this discussion earlier when I read your proposed narrative.
    I still believe that the bureaucrat is completely wrong in his/her interpretation of what DHS requires.
    Remember every bureaucrat has a boss to appeal to. Sometimes you just have to go to the top of the food chain in order to get things accomplished.
    Unfortunately many of these bureaucrats won't make a decision that might cause them to take responsibility for their actions, 1st rule is always pass the blame to someone else. In this case blame DHS for the decision to spend ridiculous amounts of unneeded money to buy equipment thats not needed and probably won't work to improve our safety.

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    Oh my my and I thought I was in this boat alone. LVFD were did you get those cans? I need those to box up and send to my friend at the Motorala shop with a note "can you fix this"

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    For only 1200 each, we will write that on there
    BTW Blake,

    I sent an email to that Mr. Ailes or Tillies? Something like that requesting to be notified when he would be in Nebraska around Lincoln or Omaha. He emailed me almost immediately with a date. Impressive.

    I intend to hear what this man has to say.

    Thanks for advising about him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    But since the award couldn't have been approved without the state saying yes, and theirs wasn't billed as APCO25 and still approved then sounds like NY will allow non-APCO to go through.
    Isn't a key part of this is, if the radio choices are 'capable' of upgrading to P25?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfd701 View Post
    Oh my my and I thought I was in this boat alone. LVFD were did you get those cans? I need those to box up and send to my friend at the Motorala shop with a note "can you fix this"
    At a trade show long ago. One of the benefits of being a Motorola dealer was getting lots of junque like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    Isn't a key part of this is, if the radio choices are 'capable' of upgrading to P25?
    Depends on your grant and the state you are in.

    All of this about NY is kind of funny when NYS was going to opensky for their statewide radio system - before they kicked Ma/Com out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Depends on your grant and the state you are in.

    All of this about NY is kind of funny when NYS was going to opensky for their statewide radio system - before they kicked Ma/Com out.
    Now that is a pretty inside piece of info to recall. Man its good having a communications professional here on the forums.

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    Thanks - but it was pretty widely known, and the lawsuits are still possible. It was a mess!

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    Thanks for the replies. I guess we will buy what we put in for.

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