1. #1
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    Default Straight stick ladder truck; fog or straight tip?

    Group,

    I'm trying to keep this post as neutral as possible, as it will be used for justification. For those that have operated in a ladder company, especially a straight stick, do you have a straight tip in place or a fog nozzle on the pipe?

    There are some that feel a fog nozzle is beneficial, in the event the stick needs to be used for a rescue, the fog nozzle can be used to protect the victim and or rescuers above. Others find this to be a ridiculous concept, and that the focus should be made on making the grab versus flowing water; get up, grab the vic, get down.

    Please weigh in on this topic, and know that your feedback is very valuable. Also keep in mind, these ladder trucks have a pump and tank water. Oh yeah, also, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!

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    I am more for a stait on the stick. It is much better for defensive operations, gives you more reach and penetration to really "pound the fire" (sorry that sounded a little dirty) You can reach the seat of the fire eaiser with a strait tip. My truck company has a fog tip in the engineers compartment that can be screwed onto the stick to replace the strait tip incase the need ever arose.
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    Even if the argument of "protecting rescuers or victims" had any merit (because the Truck Company is going to center their activities on getting them OUT, not flowing water) the smooth bore is going to flow more water and k/d any fire threatening victims or rescuers in a more rapid, efficient military manner than the sissy fog nozzles.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    straight truck = no pump no tank and no pre piped waterway. Less maintainence and allows the ladder to be used for rescue or getting to the roof easier without worrying about the waterway. Plus in the winter no worry about it freezing. As far as nozzles depends on the situation.

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    For fire attack smooth bore. Just watch the videos of so many fog streams from ladders not coming close to hitting the fire because either the wind or convection currents break the stream all apart.

    For exposure cooling, or vapor cloud control a fog nozzle is a better choice.
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    id rather a smooth bore since if we are going to use most of the time it would be for putting water on the fire, but I'm with Fyredup that Id rather a fog if protecting exposures.

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    About three (3) years ago, my department took the fog nozzles off of the ladder pipe and put the smooth bores on. We did this for the reasons already mentioned in the forum.

    Each Truck Co. now carries the fog nozzle in the compartment where the straight tips used to sit. We merely flip-flopped them.
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    if your doing a rescue, what difference does the nozzle make?

    The ladder should be in rescue mode with the nozzle at least 1 section below the tip and not flowing water
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    Seeing as a fog nozzle is used for life in the case of decon and property conservation in the case of exposure protection, it should be on there.

    The use of a bore tip is generally defensive. It means there's time to change the nozzles.

    They do have threads, you know.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    We mount only smoothbore on all master streams engines and our tower. We carry fog nozzle for the vapor cloud dispersement only. Pretty expensive tool for such a limited focus, but...

    We use the smoothbores on exposures and would note that the heavier application of water allows more water to reach the exposure for cooling purposes. Putting the stream on the roof or along the eave line allows the water to run down effectively cooling the surface. Fog pattern may cover more surface area at once but with far less actual water on a given surface area. In defensive/exposure ops the heat will eat through fog pattern carrying much for the water aways as steam before it arrives on the exposed surfaces. The downside is not peeling siding or punching windows which can cause problems. Much easier to do from a bucket than on the ground using control cables or even the electric controls from the turntable.

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    I would agree with it should be no where near the tip of the ladder. If you can pin it a section down. If I were specking a new truck it would have to be able to be pinned in a rescue mode or I would strongly consider not having it at all. Many cities that do ladder rescue on a regular basis don't have waterways on the ladder at all Boston, Chicago, FDNY

    IF you got to have one use a smooth bore

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    My vote is for smooth bore stacked tips on the ladder pipe. Not only because of the superior penetration of the smooth bore over the fog tip but because of the monetary savings you will see. Smooth bores do not require electrical motors to vary the pattern, that is one less electrical motor, controls and wiring that has to be installed and maintained. Fog nozzles are generally more expensive than stacked tips and require regular maintenance. Put stack tips on the pipe and keep a fog in the compartment. Overall its a cheaper and better option.

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    Platform has an electrically operated Fog on it to start with a set of stack tips in the Bucket. Unplug one plug and change it out. Best of both worlds,T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 03-08-2010 at 07:01 PM.

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    Nozzles can be changed out. There's these things called threads. Lefty loosey, righty tighty.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    We have a pre piped dry truck, we run smooth bore for many of the reason already mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    Nozzles can be changed out. There's these things called threads. Lefty loosey, righty tighty.
    Exactly right, well excpet for the fact that the smoothbore should be mounted with the fog tip available for change out.

    I attempted to use a fog nozzle on straight stream on a structure fire one night for a blitz attack. Granted, it was on an engine on the top mount deluge gun. From 75 feet away the stream simply would not make it to the fire. The wind blew it away. We switched to a smoothbore and kicked some serious ***. Fog nozzle? Sure in the compartment. Smoothbore? Damn right, on the gun where it belongs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I attempted to use a fog nozzle on straight stream on a structure fire one night for a blitz attack. Granted, it was on an engine on the top mount deluge gun. From 75 feet away the stream simply would not make it to the fire. The wind blew it away. We switched to a smoothbore and kicked some serious ***. Fog nozzle? Sure in the compartment. Smoothbore? Damn right, on the gun where it belongs.
    That's why, as you're setting up for the blitz, one guy puts the bore tip on.

    Same could be said for the fog, in the case of needing it.

    The deck gun has the fog mounted with the stack tips just a foot away for changing out. The fog is shorter (our gun is pointed straight up for the little magnet that keeps the buzzer from going off). But also, if we're needing it for perviously stated purpose, it's ready right away. And it reinforces the philosophy of life then property.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Smoothbore. Fog strips the bubbles out of the CAFS.

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    Everyone has pretty much hit on all the points I would make - so I'll just sum up and try to bring them all together.

    1 - You really need both available as they each have their places. (FyredUp 'splained it best I think)

    2 - Look at what types of fire fighting / suppression you will most likely do most often & put that nozzle on the waterway & the other in a compartment. (I tend to agree with nameless on my choice here)

    3 - You can't do effective rescue work with the waterway pinned to the tip. Period. It's hard enough to talk John Q Public out onto the tip of a stick when it's right there in front of them - stick a big honkin nozzle & waterway in between them and it will take far to long to get them on the stick. Plus you're weight limits are severely restricted on MOST devices while flowing water so the whole "protecting during rescue" is out the window. You have to pick - are you going to squirt water or grab victims - hopefully a No-brainier.

    These are of course my opinions. While I hope they help; they are in fact worth exactly what you paid for 'em.

    Best of luck with your decision.
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    The tip doesn't affect where the waterway is pinned on any truck I've worked on or driven.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    Seeing as a fog nozzle is used for life in the case of decon and property conservation in the case of exposure protection, it should be on there.

    The use of a bore tip is generally defensive. It means there's time to change the nozzles.

    They do have threads, you know.
    Johnny, I am being dead dog serious here in asking this question. How many times have you had to use the fog nozzle for gross decon over the number of times you have had to use it for fire attack? Our gross decon set up calls for 2 engines side by side with fog nozzles placed on discharges with tarps for privacy as we strip people as they go through decon. If we need immediate decon while we are setting that up we pull a handline and start.

    I have to disagree with the thought that smoothbores on master streams are defensive. We train on using them for hard hits initially if it is called for. If we can nail it good with the deluge for a minute or less and get good knockdown we can revert to handlines and mop up. Of course if the structure is occupied this tactic may be limited.



    That's why, as you're setting up for the blitz, one guy puts the bore tip on.

    Same could be said for the fog, in the case of needing it.

    The deck gun has the fog mounted with the stack tips just a foot away for changing out. The fog is shorter (our gun is pointed straight up for the little magnet that keeps the buzzer from going off). But also, if we're needing it for perviously stated purpose, it's ready right away. And it reinforces the philosophy of life then property.
    What is there to set up for with a blitz? We pull up the firefighter goes up top and the driver puts the pump in gear. Voila!! Less than a minute after stopping we are hitting the fire.

    I just don't get your life then property obsession with the deck gun or ladder pipe. If immediate decon is needed pull a handline while you swap tips out on the pipe.

    The simple fact is a fog nozle even on straight stream does not have the reach or penetration of a smoothbore when wind conditions are high. But since you are where you are and I am where I am and what we do where we are is what the FD has decided it is all good in the end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Johnny, I am being dead dog serious here in asking this question. How many times have you had to use the fog nozzle for gross decon over the number of times you have had to use it for fire attack?
    I never have to use a fog nozzle on a deck gun or ladder pipe for fire attack. It comes off. But in the case of gross decon, I've never had to do it. Hopefully I never will. But part of our guidelines calls for the use of ladder pipes for this purpose (in addition to other means). This alone, considering the priorities of the fire service argues for the fog to be on the tip instead of the solid (which would be put on in the event it was appropriate). In addition, protecting an exposure is better done with a fog (usually), and this too would require the fastest deployment, which would indicate leaving the fog on at all times.



    I have to disagree with the thought that smoothbores on master streams are defensive. We train on using them for hard hits initially if it is called for. If we can nail it good with the deluge for a minute or less and get good knockdown we can revert to handlines and mop up. Of course if the structure is occupied this tactic may be limited.
    Agreed. I thought about it after that it might be offensive or "marginal".




    What is there to set up for with a blitz? We pull up the firefighter goes up top and the driver puts the pump in gear. Voila!! Less than a minute after stopping we are hitting the fire.
    The initial discussion was about ladder pipes. You've muddied the waters and I expect roses and chocolates, now.

    But also, even in the case of a blitz, someone should make a quick 360. Especially prior to blasting the burned side with crap tones of water. This will doubtless take longer than swapping a straight for the fog.

    I just don't get your life then property obsession with the deck gun or ladder pipe. If immediate decon is needed pull a handline while you swap tips out on the pipe.
    You realize the exact same can be said for the solid tip. but if it's possible to put one into play faster, that's desirable. To make the most of manpower in such a situation from the get go is a smart thing to do.

    The simple fact is a fog nozle even on straight stream does not have the reach or penetration of a smoothbore when wind conditions are high. But since you are where you are and I am where I am and what we do where we are is what the FD has decided it is all good in the end.
    I don't disagree, and haven't said otherwise. Either way, they can be swapped out fast.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    I believe in smooth bores on all master stream devices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I believe in smooth bores on all master stream devices.
    Testify Brother!!
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