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Thread: Pagers

  1. #41
    Forum Member mtg55's Avatar
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    Our department bases jr ff rules off of state laws. If the state child labor services says they can do it (they have a manual on junior firefighters), we examin it to see if we think they should be doing it and go from there. That being said, leaving school for fire calls is not permitted by the state. If they are carrying them in school, they are supposed to be off and in there locker/book bag.
    Matt G.
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  2. #42
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    It is and the fact we don't have Juniors, we have an explorer post, but they do not respond to calls for service, unless they are with and under control of their advisor.

    We had Juniors when I was associated with a volunteer dept 40 odd years back, but they didn't have pagers then and relied on the pole siren to be notified. IF the teacher wanted them to leave the class they did, if not they remained in school. All they could do would help take up and or assist a operator getting kinks out of the hose, plus standby with the air bottles if needed.

    The law in Virginia is pretty straight about children operating on a fire scene and that is the one we have to abide by.

    It doesn't matter what the title is (explorers vs juniors). It is irrelevant. It is also quite irrelevant what they did 150 years ago when Betsy kicked a lantern over. Its 2010 now.

    Your department chooses not to let them respond to calls. May others do and very successfully and within the laws of their state. So once again, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm quite glad it is not one that is shared widely.
    Last edited by nmfire; 03-05-2010 at 02:28 PM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  3. #43
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    It doesn't matter what the title is (explorers vs juniors). It is irrelevant. It is also quite irrelevant what they did 150 years ago when Betsy kicked a lantern over. Its 2010 now.

    Your department chooses not to let them respond to calls. May others do and very successfully and within the laws of their state. So once again, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm quite glad it is not one that is shared widely.



    As a real matter of FACT, My opinion is shared within the Commonwealth. I have to work by those laws of this Commonwealth and no other.

    150 years ago we ran horse drawn apparatus. 70 or so years before that, the department operated with hand drawn equipment, hose reels and tub pumps and the like.

    Today we run a very progressive career department, without the need of juniors and or explorers being a hindrance on the scene. Your department may have the justification and need for having them, we don't and we operate just fine.

    Just a different way that each department does business.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  4. #44
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    We run a very progressive department as well. And we do not NEED juniors/explorers for anything. We CHOOSE to have them. Its a great service to the youth of our community. It provides a gateway to the fire service for more kids than I can count who are now career firefighters, and chief officers. It provides an opportunity for those firefighters that wish to participate in a meaningful program and get added training in the process.

    People ask why I do what I do for ours and its pretty simple. Its one of the very few things we can do that provides a constantly positive, visible, and productive outcome constantly. It takes a lot of my time but every bit is worth it.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  5. #45
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    What the hell does this post have to do with jrs having pagers at school.? We are not talking about farming, running a family business, education cuts or prison. You sir have derailed and should not be allowed to speak for the next five minutes.
    Hey hey hey, yo yo yo, donctha know it's da Crow's MO?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  6. #46
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Why not treat like any other extra curricular activity?
    Trolls, 2...the rest of you, 0.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    What the hell does this post have to do with jrs having pagers at school.? We are not talking about farming, running a family business, education cuts or prison. You sir have derailed and should not be allowed to speak for the next five minutes.
    It means that a lot of 14 year olds are far more mature than some of the 40 year olds on these boards.

    FYI, The definition of a child is someone between birth and puberty. Since children reach puberty at 10 and 11 those older than that are not children.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Today we run a very progressive career department, without the need of juniors and or explorers being a hindrance on the scene. Your department may have the justification and need for having them, we don't and we operate just fine.

    Just a different way that each department does business.
    Obviously career departments operate totally different from volunteer departments. In the career world you pay people to come help, in the volunteer world you beg them to come help.

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Here is the State of NC guidelines for Junior Firefighters

    In an effort to encourage Junior Firefighter and Rescue Responder programs, the NC Fire and Rescue Commission established this voluntary Junior Member Standard to offer guidance to fire and rescue departments in developing and administering programs. While designed to take into account recognized programs nationwide, the Commission recommends that departments research additional requirements that may be implemented between editions of this standard. Overview Junior members shall be separated into two groups: (1) minors 16 and 17 years of age; and (2) minors 14 and 15 years of age. Fire Departments and Rescue Squads should make sure their By-Laws, Constitution, and Charter reflect the proper authority to have junior members. General Restrictions This standard does not address minors under the age of 14 (fourteen). In general, the following guidelines should be used to restrict the activities of Junior Members. When not specifically listed or discussed, all activities should be limited to those considered non-emergency.
    • Junior Members shall not be substituted for trained personnel.
    • Junior Members shall be equipped with appropriate personal protective equipment to accomplish the assigned tasks
    • Junior Members who ride on apparatus or other department vehicles shall be seated and must wear a seat belt.
    • Junior Members shall not drive department vehicles.
    • Junior Members shall not enter or perform ventilation procedures on a burning structure.
    • Junior Members shall not use any tools or gloves on energized electrical equipment.
    • During events, the Junior members shall be clearly marked in order to easily identify them from a distance. This may be accomplished by different methods including different colored helmets or helmet striping, different colored coats, or special vests.
    In addition, specific guidelines are provided based on age groups.

    Guidelines for Minors 16 and 17 Years of Age Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY:
    • Ride as a passenger in the cab of a fire truck or in a rescue vehicle. The Junior shall be seated with his/her seat belt securely fastened;
    • Attend and take part in supervised training.
    • Participate in department functions within the rehabilitation area of an emergency scene. This could include setting up the engine or light truck, assisting in water supply efforts, handling of wood and other technical rescue materials, and other support functions, which do not expose the Junior member to hazardous areas or atmospheres.
    • Pick up hoses or other materials and clean up at the emergency scene after it has been declared safe by the Incident Commander.
    • Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult responder once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander and not considered immediately dangerous to life or health (IDLH).
    • Perform search and rescue activities, other than structural firefighting, high level, other areas considered dangerous or IDLH.
    • Operate a fire pump or equipment located outside the danger zone at the direction of the Incident Commander.
    • Use pressurized hose lines, if properly trained, under the direction of an Incident Commander and out of the danger area.

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY NOT:
    • Perform fire suppression involving structures or vehicles.
    • Perform high level, confined space, collapse rescue, or any rescue operation that places them in danger or areas of IDLH.
    • Drive fire department or rescue vehicles.
    • Perform firefighting “overhaul” activities (except when the structure has been declared safe by the Incident Commander and then only with an adult firefighter).
    • Respond to a Hazardous Materials events (except for support functions within the cold zone).
    • Participate or assist in any extrication activities at the scene of an accident or emergency (except in the capacity of a support function).
    • Participate in any activities at the scene of an accident or emergency where fire or hazardous materials are involved, unless they are performing support functions from outside the danger area.
    • Participate in actual “ice rescue” activities, but may provide assistance within any designated rehabilitation area or as a support member on dry land only.
    • Direct traffic at the scene of a fire or other emergency.
    • Train on departmental equipment or remove equipment from an apparatus unless under the supervision of an instructor.
    • Youth under 18 years of age who are enrolled in school in Grade 12 or below may not be employed between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. when there is school for the youth the next day. Sixteen and Seventeen (16/17) year old youths may get the hour restriction waived upon written permission from the parent/guardian and from the youth's principal/designee.
    Youth under 18 years of age who are enrolled in school in Grade 12 or below may respond, in a non-emergency mode, to calls during school hours.


    These are the guidelines which we use at our dept. I recognize and respect that each State is different but this is the rule of thumb in our area. And while we value our Jr members, They are not allowed to leave school during school hours to assist with call. While the State does allow Youth to respond to calls during school hours, we feel that there is/will be plenty for them to do after school hrs and after they graduate. We also feel that while our SOPs are more restrictive than the State's guidelines, it is just another way for them to "pay their dues" before become full members. If they are not willing to follow our SOPs that are in place then they are not ready to join the ranks. In closing since our Jrs. are not allowed responded from school there is no reason for them have have their personal radio's or pagers on while in class.
    Stay Safe
    Bull


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  10. #50
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Those are very similar to CT's laws, almost identical.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  11. #51
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Those are very similar to CT's laws, almost identical.
    Great Minds think alike. Scary ain't?
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL
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  12. #52
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Well, I wouldn't go that far. The state laws were just instituted about 2 years ago. Prior to that, it was a free-for-all. Luckily, our own in-house rules were more than adequate and the state's new laws didn't change much for us.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  13. #53
    Forum Member pasobuff's Avatar
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    I just conferred with my other half, who deals a lot with fire service requirements, standards etc......it is his understanding in NYS that a minor MAY join a fire department as a firefighter (as opposed to a Jr or Explorer) - HOWEVER that is up to the AHJ as to whether they will consider that person an employee - and what their requirements for 'hiring' such a person is (age limit etc)....so it is possible to have a minor as a full member of a department.

    That being said, it is my personal opinion that someone still in school should not be carrying a pager, or even a cell phone for that matter (I know my daughter will NOT!).....school is for schooling........

  14. #54
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    Keep in mind that some of these children in school are 17 or 18 years old and very possibly could be serving in the military instead of sitting in class.

    That being said, I can't see encouraging them to carry pagers at school and to allow them to respond from school except in those areas where call rates are so low that it isn't likely they would get a page more than once every other month or so.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by auxman View Post
    Keep in mind that some of these children in school are 17 or 18 years old and very possibly could be serving in the military instead of sitting in class.

    That being said, I can't see encouraging them to carry pagers at school and to allow them to respond from school except in those areas where call rates are so low that it isn't likely they would get a page more than once every other month or so.
    Currently, Air Force and Navy requires a High School Diploma or GED.

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  16. #56
    Forum Member Rice09's Avatar
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    Carry a pager in school? sure. As long as it's not real.

    Seriously, either way doesn't really matter to me.

  17. #57
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    While Chenzo and I are on the same department we have differing views on this subject.

    I see absolutlely no reason for juniors, cadets, or whatever you call them to carry pagers while in school. The job of that student is to learn and graduate. There will be plenty of time after school hours and after they graduate to respond to calls.

    But then again the reality is how the FD utilizes their juniors. IF your FD uses them as regular firefighters I could understand why you would want them to respond. I disagree with what you are doing but that is not my business. If they are used as gophers working in the warm or cold zone there is no urgent need for them to respond during school hours.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

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  18. #58
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    I say give'em all pagers.....


    just take away the cell phones.

    Least you can't text on a pager.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  19. #59
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    While Chenzo and I are on the same department we have differing views on this subject.
    Yes, but you can ground him until he changes his view.
    IAFF

  20. #60
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Yes, but you can ground him until he changes his view.
    Oh, only if I could...Unfortunately, or fortunately, he is 20 and out on his own.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

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