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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    If your department is counting on explorers to make up staffing, there are problems. In addition, if they are putting water on the fire from the outside, the home is lost anyway and having or not having explorers on the hoseline didn't make a difference.
    thats why they get put on the support line, b/c the building is lost so they give us something to do.

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    Listen. Nothing for nothing, many moons ago, I was a Jr. I also at one point ran an explorer post. I have been there, done stupid things, and came up through the ranks. I have known some very, very competent Jr's who became probies and got their IFSAC certs, so I would hope those that this does not apply don't feel this is a carpet bombing attack on all Jr's. It's Not. I don't know if all states have different variations of Child Labor Laws, or if certain fire departments have ever even heard of them, but some of the things I read in this section just make me shake my head. I try not to post unless I am honestly answering a question that someone asks in a positive way, or joking around, passing experience, etc etc, So forgive me for my rant. If by law in your state you are aloud to operate a hose line at the scene of an incident, fine. I may not agree but its legal. I don't always blame the posting Jr's, there are some officer's to point fingers at. I just want to point out an article I read on FH home page about the Charleston 9. It appears two of the families are attempting to file criminal charges against the Command staff for the actions leading up to their deaths. This seems to be coming more prevalent. Makes you think. Do some research, find out what you can/can't do by law in your state. If your department doesn't care and lets you do it anyway, you should still find out. That way when one of your officers goes to jail for getting you injured/killed, you (and they) at least understand why. Again, some departments don't have Jr's, nor do they want them, but we do and they have a place on our fire grounds. Do I like them? Most of them. But I will NOT be incarcerated for any of their actions on a fire ground I am running. You guys/girls are young. There will always be fire, and you will get a chance to play if you pay your dues, learn the job right, and train your butts off. You can learn more *WATCHING* proper hand line operations than you can actually attempting it. Try it. I dare you! Stay safe, learn eagerly, eat hearty, and for god sakes, stay out of the shadows!!! lmao
    Last edited by mtg55; 03-16-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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    Who are you wanting to know about RFxplr326???

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmers_Jr View Post
    Who are you wanting to know about RFxplr326???
    Palmer, I'm gonna say the person he quoted. You've escaped, this time....lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmers_Jr View Post
    Who are you wanting to know about RFxplr326???
    Quote Originally Posted by mtg55 View Post
    Palmer, I'm gonna say the person he quoted. You've escaped, this time....lol
    What he said...
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  6. #31
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    mtg55 i sent you an inbox message, i do not know if it sent or not.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

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    we have enough to worry about at a fire scene especially if there is a chief there.. Explorers need to stay back near the trucks and watch and OBSERVE not doing a job that we had to get certified for. Your advisors need to be drop kicked for letting you guys even think about touching a hoseline at a scene.

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    I guess it makes it all okay if Chuck Norris said you can do the job that we went/go to school for for the training.
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    well what do you think about us backing a firefighter up on the suport lines? or a salvage line?
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

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    It doesn't matter what my opinion is really. It is simply against the law here. What departments allow jr's/explorers to do is completely up to them, my issue lies where the law is being broken. Sometimes, in fact, when the people involved have absolutely no idea laws exist. We work in an inherently dangerous field, and it takes years of training AND EXPERIENCE to be good at it. Being young and anxious to jump in is ok, but as I said before "there will always be fire".
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    well sir. do you think it whould be ok for jr's? explores to be on the salvage line during over haul, since we are the ones tearing the stuff apart once fire is out?
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    well sir. do you think it whould be ok for jr's? explores to be on the salvage line during over haul, since we are the ones tearing the stuff apart once fire is out?
    You do not belong inside a hot zone, period.

    You do not belong on a hoseline insde a hot zone, period. Any hoseline operating onto or into a structure fire is inside a hot zone.

    You REALLY do not belong inside a hot zone doing overhaul, period.

    Hot Zone + Juniors = NO
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    ok. i was asking mtg55 opinion. but yours will be well noted, but prob not followed
    Last edited by RS1606; 03-19-2010 at 02:46 PM.
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    not trying to be mean with the above post. just telling the truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    ok. i was asking mtg55 opinion. but yours will be well noted, but prob not followed
    Noted. And when your organization receives a little love letter from this state agency called "Occupational Safety and Health" and maybe even another one called "Bureau of Child Labor Enforcement" or something similar, with a small enclosure inside each letter called a "Citation" with a number on it and LOTS of zeros, and your organization has to write a check to the sender, I guarantee it will be followed.

    But then again, with Officers as bright as your Captain, I am not surprised.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    can the child labor do anything about that? we chose to do it by choice. there are many agencies around the U.S that let explorers do salvage/ overhaul. honest question with this one, for once not being a jerk with it.
    and if so, then Explorer post would not be able to train, we practise forced entry, hose line opperation, ladder raise, ect.
    Last edited by RS1606; 03-19-2010 at 02:56 PM. Reason: added more to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    can the child labor do anything about that? we chose to do it by choice. there are many agencies around the U.S that let explorers do salvage/ overhaul. honest question with this one, for once not being a jerk with it.
    and if so, then Explorer post would not be able to train, we practise forced entry, hose line opperation, ladder raise, ect.
    There is an enormous difference between TRAINING and operating at an EMERGENCY.

    Training is in a controlled environment, carefully overseen by your adult supervisors. If someone does something wrong, or does something dangerous, the entire evolution can be stopped and the mistake pointed out and discussed among everyone. The correct procedures/methods can be reviewed and practiced. You may train on almost any subject you want, as long as it does not involve incipient fire within a structure (even if in controlled situations.)

    An emergency is an emergency. There is no place for Juniors/Explorers/Untrained/Unqualified personnel inside the hot zone at an emergency. Even if the fire is declared "under control" the hot zone still remains hot- potential collapse of floors or walls, not to mention there are still poisonous/dangerous chemicals being released into the atmosphere through smoke and other by-products of combustion. This is why SCBA is mandatory during overhaul in many, many Departments throughout the United States. Additionally, studies have shown that more firefighters are injured during overhaul than any other phase of firefighting.

    Can Child Labor Enforcement do anything about that? YOU BET THEY CAN. If your organization is found in violation of the laws, whether by allowing you to do things forbidden by the laws, or by working over your allotted hours, they can serve your Department with severe fines.

    If your Department is allowing you to perform functions that you should not be allowed to do, woes them. If your Department is allowing you to perform functions and you get severly injured or killed, well, I will reserve comment.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    I can't believe that a bigger department such as Knoxville has this going on emergency scenes.

    And... What FWD said..............
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFxplr326 View Post
    I can't believe that a bigger department such as Knoxville has this going on emergency scenes.
    The City of Knoxville is a fully paid, career Department. I seriously doubt this is his department. Perhaps he is in an outlying community.
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    Ask anyone, they'll tell you I have no problem voicing my opinions. lol. But really, when it comes to stuff like this you HAVE to site what the labor laws for your state say. I have no problem taking people and teaching them, and most of the time hands on is the best way. But my opinion will not save a fire department from the citations that FDW speaks of. I'm not being negative by any means, just trying to give the best advice I possibly can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    can the child labor do anything about that? we chose to do it by choice. there are many agencies around the U.S that let explorers do salvage/ overhaul. honest question with this one, for once not being a jerk with it.
    and if so, then Explorer post would not be able to train, we practise forced entry, hose line opperation, ladder raise, ect.
    Yes you can train in these practices (at least by law in my state you can). Concider the labor dept of your state the perverbial "man". God forbid something happened to one of you, and you weren't following state protocal, your department would be in a world of hurt. Again, not being negative, once you learn what the rules are, you can still do a lot and learn a lot.
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    I'll go ahead and give you my advice I am on a volly department down near Nashville, TN so you say your from knoxville eh? Well friendly piece of advice what your department is allowing you to do is illegal in the state of TN. You have to be a full member 18 y/o and on the roster as a member so that you are covered by insurance before you ever step foot in a hot zone. Our Juniors run calls with us occasionaly, they can come ride the truck get out of the truck and the first thing they do is go to the scene commander and they DO NOT leave his side. Like it has been stated many times in this thread Juniors do not belong in the hot zone and in the case of TN it is illegal as all hell. If I knew what department you were on I would inquire more info myself, I have a hard time believeing that what you said about your Captain is entirely true. And for your own saftey next time he tells you to get on a hose line ore enter the hot zone for any reason tell him you are not comfortable with it and it is not safe nor legal. Your time will come focus on school for now and enjoy your time as an explorer.

    Stay safe
    Last edited by NotThatGuy; 03-21-2010 at 11:50 AM.

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    ok. thanks for all of that, i will talk to my capt about it. i didnt know all of that could happen. he goes on what they were allowed to do as explorers back 30 years ago when he was one. he still goes on that, he is the old folks that dont like wearing hoods or a SCBA. but yes, thank you very much.
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    we are rarely on hose lines tho, it just depends on the company your with, our main priority is geting ladders up and changeing air bottles ECT. ive been on the booster for overhaul once, other than that, i was pulling the celing and stuff like that. we are not coverd under the department insurance, we pay dues to use our own insurence. and do not ask what department im with b/c i will not tell you.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

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    There have been numerous threads on this subject and I have posted pretty much the same thing in those as well.

    I am not here to debate the merits nor dangers of Jr's in the hot zone nor will I state my opinion on what side of the fence I'm on in that debate. I will however echo those that have said that you should know the applicable laws in YOUR state and abide by them.


    Now, for the Commonwealth of VA:

    Any person who is 16 years of age on or before the first day of class is allowed to take the State FF-1 course (including all High Risk & Live Fire Training) and become certified. Anyone under the age of 18 must also have a signed letter from Parent / Guardian allowing them to participate in said class / training.

    Any person aged 16 and older AND who is certified as a FF-1 (or higher) may perform any and all functions as deemed necessary and allowable by their department. Anyone under the age of 18 must also have a signed letter from Parent / Guardian allowing them to participate in said activities.


    So in essence unless your department(or whomever their over-site may happen to be) prohibits it, then it won't matter if you're 16 or 116 - you are permitted to perform any and all fire-ground activities. End of story. No OSHA, no Labor Board, no child labor law violations, no citations, no fines.

    And as Walter Cronkite said "And that's the way it is".
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