1. #51
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    i will check into that. to see if we can get that done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    we are not coverd under the department insurance, we pay dues to use our own insurence. and do not ask what department im with b/c i will not tell you.
    THAT has GOT to be one of the CRAZIEST things I have ever heard. First of all, I question whether this is even legal. In most (if not all) states, Federal Law requires that volunteer fire departments maintain both liability and workman's compensation insurance in the event of negligence or injury.

    Secondly, I assume your parents had to sign some kind of form. Do they know exactly what kind of insurance this is that is supposedly "covering" you? What does it cover? When does it cover it? Will it cover you in the event of injury you are performing which is not authorized by child labor regulations or OSHA?

    And third. Though I would never, ever reccommend anyone venture outside the recognized chain of command, in this case I will make and exception. Son-for your own safety, don't go to your Captain. He sounds like a blubbering idiot idiot who couldn't lead a girl scout troop out of a paper bag with a map in his hands. Go to the Chief of the Department, and tell him that information has come to your attention that the Department may be violating Child Labor Laws which could get the Department in some pretty serious trouble, especially if anyone got hurt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by N2DFire View Post
    Any person aged 16 and older AND who is certified as a FF-1 (or higher) may perform any and all functions as deemed necessary and allowable by their department. Anyone under the age of 18 must also have a signed letter from Parent / Guardian allowing them to participate in said activities.
    Can you please cite the code section? I am interested in seeing this.
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    I would like to see this also.. I was always told you have to be 18 to be certified. Maybe tn law is different.. What i can say is if i ever am on a hoseline at a fire and turn around a see a explorer as my backup itll be the day i turn in my gear and tell my chief im not gonna be responsible if crap hits the fan and i gotta duck for some reason...

    You might wanna also check with boy scouts of america. When i was chief of our explorer post we were told by BSA toy cannot be in the hotzone. That was around 7 years ago.

    Check with these guys. http://www.learning-for-life.org/exp...ire/index.html
    Last edited by d_holder86; 03-22-2010 at 06:28 PM. Reason: addition

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    Quote Originally Posted by d_holder86 View Post
    You might wanna also check with boy scouts of america. When i was chief of our explorer post we were told by BSA toy cannot be in the hotzone. That was around 7 years ago.

    Check with these guys. http://www.learning-for-life.org/exp...ire/index.html
    Just remember, many programs (ours included) is completely internal, and have no association with the BSA, and are not required to follow their rules/regulations. They are, however, required to follow all Federal, State and local regulations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    and do not ask what department im with b/c i will not tell you.
    Your profile gives it away as well as previous posts. I already looked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    The department that I'm in allows explorers to be on a support line, (fight fire from outside the house). what our your opinions about this. Also do your departments let you do more, less, or same?
    Makes sense to put a junior on an exposure line, and free up a regular firefighter to do something else. Not much danger involved while sitting on an exposure line.

    In regards to the whole hot zone thing, I am not quite sure the exact definition, I have a doubt that outside (yard, backyard, etc) a house fire would be deemed the hot zone. Maybe I am wrong, but I like the idea of a junior on an exposure.

    We don't do juniors unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flashpo1nt View Post
    Makes sense to put a junior on an exposure line, and free up a regular firefighter to do something else. Not much danger involved while sitting on an exposure line.

    In regards to the whole hot zone thing, I am not quite sure the exact definition, I have a doubt that outside (yard, backyard, etc) a house fire would be deemed the hot zone. Maybe I am wrong, but I like the idea of a junior on an exposure.

    We don't do juniors unfortunately.
    A "Hot Zone" as defined by OSHA is any area that is IDLH (immediately dangerous to life/health.) This includes inside of collapse zones where exposure lines may be operating. I do not condone the use of Juniors on any hoseline at an emergency in replacement of a trained firefighter. If manpower is that bad, strike out another alarm or special call an additional engine or truck on the box card.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashpo1nt View Post
    Makes sense to put a junior on an exposure line, and free up a regular firefighter to do something else. Not much danger involved while sitting on an exposure line.

    In regards to the whole hot zone thing, I am not quite sure the exact definition, I have a doubt that outside (yard, backyard, etc) a house fire would be deemed the hot zone. Maybe I am wrong, but I like the idea of a junior on an exposure.

    We don't do juniors unfortunately.
    Buff addressed the hot zone definition. My issue with having junior or non-trained FF on a "support" line is that line may be needed inside if interior operations go bad. There is also an issue of having an exterior line at the same time as interior ops. Too easy to see an exposure line operating and decide to send it interior for some reason not realizing that the people manning the line are not interior firefighters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Secondly, I assume your parents had to sign some kind of form. Do they know exactly what kind of insurance this is that is supposedly "covering" you? What does it cover? When does it cover it? Will it cover you in the event of injury you are performing which is not authorized by child labor regulations or OSHA?
    my parents are fully aware
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    is an exposure line the same as a support line?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFxplr326 View Post
    Your profile gives it away as well as previous posts. I already looked.
    im in more than the three on there. its not any of those post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    is an exposure line the same as a support line?
    What part of "Hot Zone" don't you understand? Do you need me to draw a diagram?
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    no, im asking if they are the same thing. that guys post confused me. will you please answer my question.
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    An exposure line is protecting an exposure from imminent danger from radiant heat and/or direct mechanical exposure to fire; therefore it is in the hot zone.
    Therefore, you should not be on it.

    If this is what you consider a "support line" then re-read the above statement.

    I dont care what you call it, call it a Double-Whopper-with-Cheese handline, if it is in the HOT ZONE you should not be on it.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    RS, you asked a question about the child labor laws a while back and I believe you accepted the answer given. So I want to advice you on one point only. The law is the law and ignorance of the law is no excuse. Even if your Chief or IC did not know you where in the hot zone they are still breaking the law. See as a minor your options or choices are no matter. On these points you have no choice or opinion. It is the Chief's or IC's responsibility to guarantee that you are not in danger or in violation of the law. As officers this is one of the most difficult parts of having juniors. Sometimes it is difficult to keep them from doing things they are not suppose to be doing even after we tell them to stop or not to do something.

    Also, salvage and overhaul is still the hot zone for one simple fact, collapse is still a possibility and so is fire.

    On a side note, I think you are doing a good job asking questions. Just be careful and do not get snippy. Everyone on here will be more than happy to help you but if you turn snippy then that help will end.

    Keep up the good work and be safe. There is plenty of time for you to do all the work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302 View Post
    RS, you asked a question about the child labor laws a while back and I believe you accepted the answer given. So I want to advice you on one point only. The law is the law and ignorance of the law is no excuse. Even if your Chief or IC did not know you where in the hot zone they are still breaking the law. See as a minor your options or choices are no matter. On these points you have no choice or opinion. It is the Chief's or IC's responsibility to guarantee that you are not in danger or in violation of the law. As officers this is one of the most difficult parts of having juniors. Sometimes it is difficult to keep them from doing things they are not suppose to be doing even after we tell them to stop or not to do something.

    Also, salvage and overhaul is still the hot zone for one simple fact, collapse is still a possibility and so is fire.

    On a side note, I think you are doing a good job asking questions. Just be careful and do not get snippy. Everyone on here will be more than happy to help you but if you turn snippy then that help will end.

    Keep up the good work and be safe. There is plenty of time for you to do all the work.
    I would like to continue on this by saying that not only is it your organization's responsibility (Your Chief and all of his officers and senior firefighters) it is also YOUR responsibility to know the laws of your state and what you may and may not do as a Junior Firefighter. Just because THEY are ignorant, does not mean you have to be also. Here's a few questions for you- Do you respond to fires after 11pm on school nights? Do you spend more than 8 hours a day in the firehouse or at training or fire scenes on weekends during the school year?
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    I'm a junior myself, and I'm NOT allowed to be near a hot zone or be on a hose line. There's plenty of other ways to help on a fireground without being on a hoseline. I noticed you've angered a few people on here and my only advice to you is the same advice I recieved from one of my best friends, who works full time for the department I'm with. Keep your mouth shut and your ears open. That doesn't necessarily mean don't ask questions, just don't argue with the responses you get. I ask TONS of questions when we're going over something new that I don't understand. Just don't fight the people that are willing to give you advice. Enjoy your time as a junior, and take in all of the skills and information you can!!! Good luck!
    Last edited by JuniorFF34; 03-23-2010 at 09:55 PM. Reason: i misspelled that!
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    I know in maryland it's legal for those that are 16 and up depending on department policy. Here's the Maryland code reference.

    "Labor and Employment § 3-203. Scope of subtitle."

    This is the part that says that Child Labor Laws in the State of Maryland do not apply to volunteer or charitable organizations. It then goes on to say, "This subtitle does not apply to an activity that a minor performs if the activity:

    (4) is limited to:
    (ix) work that is performed as an unpaid volunteer in a charitable or not for profit organization, if:




    1. a parent of the minor or a person standing in the place of the parent consents in writing; and




    2. for hazardous work in a volunteer fire department or company or volunteer rescue squad, the minor:




    A. is at least 16 years old; and




    B. has completed or is taking a course of study about fire fighting or rescue. "

    The Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute allows for those that are 16 and up to complete their Firefighter I course (with inside, live fire evolutions and NFPA 1001 compliant) and also allows the completion of just about any course they offer. I know when I was 16 in Maryland I had FFI and Rescue Technician and before my 18th birthday I had EMT-B and HazMat Ops.
    Last edited by maumon086; 03-24-2010 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Forgot a part

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    An exposure line is protecting an exposure from imminent danger from radiant heat and/or direct mechanical exposure to fire; therefore it is in the hot zone.
    Therefore, you should not be on it.

    If this is what you consider a "support line" then re-read the above statement.

    I dont care what you call it, call it a Double-Whopper-with-Cheese handline, if it is in the HOT ZONE you should not be on it.
    thank you for answering my question. thats all i asked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I would like to continue on this by saying that not only is it your organization's responsibility (Your Chief and all of his officers and senior firefighters) it is also YOUR responsibility to know the laws of your state and what you may and may not do as a Junior Firefighter. Just because THEY are ignorant, does not mean you have to be also. Here's a few questions for you- Do you respond to fires after 11pm on school nights? Do you spend more than 8 hours a day in the firehouse or at training or fire scenes on weekends during the school year?
    i do spend many weekends at the fire stations. so can the chief get introuble if we get hurt if he knows nothing about it? should this be something i bring to his attention?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    i do spend many weekends at the fire stations. so can the chief get introuble if we get hurt if he knows nothing about it? should this be something i bring to his attention?
    You answered this yourself... YES. He's the boss. He should be fully aware of what's going on in his department.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    i do spend many weekends at the fire stations. so can the chief get introuble if we get hurt if he knows nothing about it? should this be something i bring to his attention?
    I don't know, is ignorance against the law in Tennessee? Why don't you use your common sense, stop, and think about that for a second..... Ask yourself..."Will my Chief get in trouble if I get hurt at a fire doing something that I am forbidden by law from doing?"

    Maybe, personally he will not get in trouble. But I guarantee, if one of you Juniors were to get hurt, your Fire Company in general will feel like it just got butt-f*cked by a gorilla with a d*ck the size of a watermelon once the State of Tennessee gets done handing out citations.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 03-24-2010 at 09:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    But I guarantee, if one of you Juniors were to get hurt, your Fire Company in general will feel like it just got butt-f*cked by a gorilla with a d*ck the size of a watermelon once the State of Tennessee gets done handing out citations.
    You just made my day.
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    Whatever be its age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I don't know, is ignorance against the law in Tennessee? Why don't you use your common sense, stop, and think about that for a second..... Ask yourself..."Will my Chief get in trouble if I get hurt at a fire doing something that I am forbidden by law from doing?"

    Maybe, personally he will not get in trouble. But I guarantee, if one of you Juniors were to get hurt, your Fire Company in general will feel like it just got butt-f*cked by a gorilla with a d*ck the size of a watermelon once the State of Tennessee gets done handing out citations.
    I admire the way you articulated that, so eloquent. Ever thought of being a poet?

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