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  1. #41
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    can the child labor do anything about that? we chose to do it by choice. there are many agencies around the U.S that let explorers do salvage/ overhaul. honest question with this one, for once not being a jerk with it.
    and if so, then Explorer post would not be able to train, we practise forced entry, hose line opperation, ladder raise, ect.
    Last edited by RS1606; 03-19-2010 at 01:56 PM. Reason: added more to it.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.


  2. #42
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    can the child labor do anything about that? we chose to do it by choice. there are many agencies around the U.S that let explorers do salvage/ overhaul. honest question with this one, for once not being a jerk with it.
    and if so, then Explorer post would not be able to train, we practise forced entry, hose line opperation, ladder raise, ect.
    There is an enormous difference between TRAINING and operating at an EMERGENCY.

    Training is in a controlled environment, carefully overseen by your adult supervisors. If someone does something wrong, or does something dangerous, the entire evolution can be stopped and the mistake pointed out and discussed among everyone. The correct procedures/methods can be reviewed and practiced. You may train on almost any subject you want, as long as it does not involve incipient fire within a structure (even if in controlled situations.)

    An emergency is an emergency. There is no place for Juniors/Explorers/Untrained/Unqualified personnel inside the hot zone at an emergency. Even if the fire is declared "under control" the hot zone still remains hot- potential collapse of floors or walls, not to mention there are still poisonous/dangerous chemicals being released into the atmosphere through smoke and other by-products of combustion. This is why SCBA is mandatory during overhaul in many, many Departments throughout the United States. Additionally, studies have shown that more firefighters are injured during overhaul than any other phase of firefighting.

    Can Child Labor Enforcement do anything about that? YOU BET THEY CAN. If your organization is found in violation of the laws, whether by allowing you to do things forbidden by the laws, or by working over your allotted hours, they can serve your Department with severe fines.

    If your Department is allowing you to perform functions that you should not be allowed to do, woes them. If your Department is allowing you to perform functions and you get severly injured or killed, well, I will reserve comment.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  3. #43
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    I can't believe that a bigger department such as Knoxville has this going on emergency scenes.

    And... What FWD said..............
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  4. #44
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFxplr326 View Post
    I can't believe that a bigger department such as Knoxville has this going on emergency scenes.
    The City of Knoxville is a fully paid, career Department. I seriously doubt this is his department. Perhaps he is in an outlying community.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  5. #45
    Forum Member mtg55's Avatar
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    Ask anyone, they'll tell you I have no problem voicing my opinions. lol. But really, when it comes to stuff like this you HAVE to site what the labor laws for your state say. I have no problem taking people and teaching them, and most of the time hands on is the best way. But my opinion will not save a fire department from the citations that FDW speaks of. I'm not being negative by any means, just trying to give the best advice I possibly can.
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  6. #46
    Forum Member mtg55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    can the child labor do anything about that? we chose to do it by choice. there are many agencies around the U.S that let explorers do salvage/ overhaul. honest question with this one, for once not being a jerk with it.
    and if so, then Explorer post would not be able to train, we practise forced entry, hose line opperation, ladder raise, ect.
    Yes you can train in these practices (at least by law in my state you can). Concider the labor dept of your state the perverbial "man". God forbid something happened to one of you, and you weren't following state protocal, your department would be in a world of hurt. Again, not being negative, once you learn what the rules are, you can still do a lot and learn a lot.
    Matt G.
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  7. #47
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    I'll go ahead and give you my advice I am on a volly department down near Nashville, TN so you say your from knoxville eh? Well friendly piece of advice what your department is allowing you to do is illegal in the state of TN. You have to be a full member 18 y/o and on the roster as a member so that you are covered by insurance before you ever step foot in a hot zone. Our Juniors run calls with us occasionaly, they can come ride the truck get out of the truck and the first thing they do is go to the scene commander and they DO NOT leave his side. Like it has been stated many times in this thread Juniors do not belong in the hot zone and in the case of TN it is illegal as all hell. If I knew what department you were on I would inquire more info myself, I have a hard time believeing that what you said about your Captain is entirely true. And for your own saftey next time he tells you to get on a hose line ore enter the hot zone for any reason tell him you are not comfortable with it and it is not safe nor legal. Your time will come focus on school for now and enjoy your time as an explorer.

    Stay safe
    Last edited by NotThatGuy; 03-21-2010 at 10:50 AM.

  8. #48
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    ok. thanks for all of that, i will talk to my capt about it. i didnt know all of that could happen. he goes on what they were allowed to do as explorers back 30 years ago when he was one. he still goes on that, he is the old folks that dont like wearing hoods or a SCBA. but yes, thank you very much.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  9. #49
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    we are rarely on hose lines tho, it just depends on the company your with, our main priority is geting ladders up and changeing air bottles ECT. ive been on the booster for overhaul once, other than that, i was pulling the celing and stuff like that. we are not coverd under the department insurance, we pay dues to use our own insurence. and do not ask what department im with b/c i will not tell you.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  10. #50
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
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    There have been numerous threads on this subject and I have posted pretty much the same thing in those as well.

    I am not here to debate the merits nor dangers of Jr's in the hot zone nor will I state my opinion on what side of the fence I'm on in that debate. I will however echo those that have said that you should know the applicable laws in YOUR state and abide by them.


    Now, for the Commonwealth of VA:

    Any person who is 16 years of age on or before the first day of class is allowed to take the State FF-1 course (including all High Risk & Live Fire Training) and become certified. Anyone under the age of 18 must also have a signed letter from Parent / Guardian allowing them to participate in said class / training.

    Any person aged 16 and older AND who is certified as a FF-1 (or higher) may perform any and all functions as deemed necessary and allowable by their department. Anyone under the age of 18 must also have a signed letter from Parent / Guardian allowing them to participate in said activities.


    So in essence unless your department(or whomever their over-site may happen to be) prohibits it, then it won't matter if you're 16 or 116 - you are permitted to perform any and all fire-ground activities. End of story. No OSHA, no Labor Board, no child labor law violations, no citations, no fines.

    And as Walter Cronkite said "And that's the way it is".
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
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  11. #51
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    i will check into that. to see if we can get that done.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  12. #52
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    we are not coverd under the department insurance, we pay dues to use our own insurence. and do not ask what department im with b/c i will not tell you.
    THAT has GOT to be one of the CRAZIEST things I have ever heard. First of all, I question whether this is even legal. In most (if not all) states, Federal Law requires that volunteer fire departments maintain both liability and workman's compensation insurance in the event of negligence or injury.

    Secondly, I assume your parents had to sign some kind of form. Do they know exactly what kind of insurance this is that is supposedly "covering" you? What does it cover? When does it cover it? Will it cover you in the event of injury you are performing which is not authorized by child labor regulations or OSHA?

    And third. Though I would never, ever reccommend anyone venture outside the recognized chain of command, in this case I will make and exception. Son-for your own safety, don't go to your Captain. He sounds like a blubbering idiot idiot who couldn't lead a girl scout troop out of a paper bag with a map in his hands. Go to the Chief of the Department, and tell him that information has come to your attention that the Department may be violating Child Labor Laws which could get the Department in some pretty serious trouble, especially if anyone got hurt.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  13. #53
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N2DFire View Post
    Any person aged 16 and older AND who is certified as a FF-1 (or higher) may perform any and all functions as deemed necessary and allowable by their department. Anyone under the age of 18 must also have a signed letter from Parent / Guardian allowing them to participate in said activities.
    Can you please cite the code section? I am interested in seeing this.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  14. #54
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    I would like to see this also.. I was always told you have to be 18 to be certified. Maybe tn law is different.. What i can say is if i ever am on a hoseline at a fire and turn around a see a explorer as my backup itll be the day i turn in my gear and tell my chief im not gonna be responsible if crap hits the fan and i gotta duck for some reason...

    You might wanna also check with boy scouts of america. When i was chief of our explorer post we were told by BSA toy cannot be in the hotzone. That was around 7 years ago.

    Check with these guys. http://www.learning-for-life.org/exp...ire/index.html
    Last edited by d_holder86; 03-22-2010 at 06:28 PM. Reason: addition

  15. #55
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d_holder86 View Post
    You might wanna also check with boy scouts of america. When i was chief of our explorer post we were told by BSA toy cannot be in the hotzone. That was around 7 years ago.

    Check with these guys. http://www.learning-for-life.org/exp...ire/index.html
    Just remember, many programs (ours included) is completely internal, and have no association with the BSA, and are not required to follow their rules/regulations. They are, however, required to follow all Federal, State and local regulations.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    and do not ask what department im with b/c i will not tell you.
    Your profile gives it away as well as previous posts. I already looked.
    Firefighter/EMT
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    The department that I'm in allows explorers to be on a support line, (fight fire from outside the house). what our your opinions about this. Also do your departments let you do more, less, or same?
    Makes sense to put a junior on an exposure line, and free up a regular firefighter to do something else. Not much danger involved while sitting on an exposure line.

    In regards to the whole hot zone thing, I am not quite sure the exact definition, I have a doubt that outside (yard, backyard, etc) a house fire would be deemed the hot zone. Maybe I am wrong, but I like the idea of a junior on an exposure.

    We don't do juniors unfortunately.

  18. #58
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashpo1nt View Post
    Makes sense to put a junior on an exposure line, and free up a regular firefighter to do something else. Not much danger involved while sitting on an exposure line.

    In regards to the whole hot zone thing, I am not quite sure the exact definition, I have a doubt that outside (yard, backyard, etc) a house fire would be deemed the hot zone. Maybe I am wrong, but I like the idea of a junior on an exposure.

    We don't do juniors unfortunately.
    A "Hot Zone" as defined by OSHA is any area that is IDLH (immediately dangerous to life/health.) This includes inside of collapse zones where exposure lines may be operating. I do not condone the use of Juniors on any hoseline at an emergency in replacement of a trained firefighter. If manpower is that bad, strike out another alarm or special call an additional engine or truck on the box card.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashpo1nt View Post
    Makes sense to put a junior on an exposure line, and free up a regular firefighter to do something else. Not much danger involved while sitting on an exposure line.

    In regards to the whole hot zone thing, I am not quite sure the exact definition, I have a doubt that outside (yard, backyard, etc) a house fire would be deemed the hot zone. Maybe I am wrong, but I like the idea of a junior on an exposure.

    We don't do juniors unfortunately.
    Buff addressed the hot zone definition. My issue with having junior or non-trained FF on a "support" line is that line may be needed inside if interior operations go bad. There is also an issue of having an exterior line at the same time as interior ops. Too easy to see an exposure line operating and decide to send it interior for some reason not realizing that the people manning the line are not interior firefighters.

  20. #60
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Secondly, I assume your parents had to sign some kind of form. Do they know exactly what kind of insurance this is that is supposedly "covering" you? What does it cover? When does it cover it? Will it cover you in the event of injury you are performing which is not authorized by child labor regulations or OSHA?
    my parents are fully aware
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

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