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  1. #81
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtg55 View Post
    I think in PA we call this Co-op. It is a program between school districts and registered businesses where students spend half of their school day going to work (most of the time a paid apprenticeship) to learn a trade. Examples being carpentry shop, body shop, auto service, sometimes career fire departments are involved. I think this is geared directly towards a school based program.
    And even then, they are bound by the child labor regulations.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."


  2. #82
    Forum Member mtg55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    And even then, they are bound by the child labor regulations.
    This is correct. There maybe someone out there more googliterate than I, but I cannont locate Jr regulations for the state of TN. I know the state puts one out here, can anyone locate?
    Matt G.
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    I think Jr programs are important but as I think it was BSFD that said jrs are difficult to keep control off. Mostly it is because of the excitement and eagerness. SOmetimes jrs. corget they are kids.

    I could not find Knox County but here is Hardin County's guidelines which I agree with completely and I believe you will find most of it is based on State Law.

    Could you at least tell us which County you are in so we could possibly help a little more. Each County can vary slightly, but not from state or federal law.

    DEPARTMENT OPERATIONAL GUIDELINE

    TITLE: Hardin County Fire Department's Junior Firefighter Program

    TO: All Personnel

    DATE: JULY 9,2005

    9. PURPOSE:

    To start a Junior Firefighters program for members of Hardin County ages 15 to 18 years old. This program will allow school age students an ability to learn the skills required to be a firefighter in the fire service.

    II. PROGRAM ADMINISTRATION:

    A. HOURS OF OPERATIONS FOR JUNIOR FIREFIGHTERS

    The hOUTS specified by parents or a work permit always supersede the hOUTS listed below:

    * During School Term: No activity while school is in session (during daytime).
    * May attend training and meetings after 7 pm but must be out of the station by 10 pm.
    * During Vacations or school nights: No activity &om 10 pm and 7 am.

    B. ADMINISTRATIVE:

    Each member of Hardin County Fire Department's Junior Firefighter program will have to obtain written permission &om his or her legal guardian. A copy of the permission letter is located in the pack of this department guideline. Each member of this program will have to follow all department rules as outlined within this guideline. The following are general requirements for being a member of this program.

    1. Each new member will be placed on a 90 day probation period.

    2. Training ~ will normally be on Saturday at 11:00 a.m. located 8tWalnut Street Fire Station. This training will normally be once a month and not injunction with regular membership meetings. The training will be outlined on the Junior Firefighters training schedule, which will be published monthly and furnished to all members.

    3. All Junior Firefighters must have a signed permission, &om both parents if possible, on file with the Fire Chief prior to being excepted into the program.
    4. The Junior Firefighter's training will be directly supervised by an authorized member of this department.
    5. All Junior Firefighters shall abide by all federal, state, and departmental rules, regulations, and not been in any trouble with any local police or sheriff's office.
    6. The Hardin County Fire Department has established a limit of 15 junior members.
    7. All Junior Firefighters must complete the department's Junior Orientation Program and Probation. This program includes department procedures, tool usage, apparatus orientation, and command structure.
    8. This operational guideline will be in effect for all department members as to recognize the rules and regulations that govern minors and their safety.
    9. All Junior Firefighters must sign in and sign out on the station's log sheet at the station every time they enter the building. NO EXCEPTIONS! (Walnut Street & District Station)
    10. Only the Fire Chief or his designee may talk to the media. You will refer all questions regarding the fire department or an emergency to the most senior officer on the scene or the Fire Chief. You are expected to represent the fire department in a positive manner. It is not appropriate to discuss internal matters of the department or talk negatively about this department to anyone.

    11. There is a $10:00 insurance fee to be a member of this program.





    ID. ACTMTIES OF JUNIOR FIREFIGHTERS

    A. PROIDBITED ACTIVITIES OF JUNIOR FIREFIGHTERS

    The following list is activities which are prohibited by Junior Firefighters under the age of 18.

    * Operating an aerial ladder/platform or hydraulic jack.
    * Operating various types of power driven saws and shears.
    * Using rubber electric gloves, insulated wire cutters, life nets, or acetylene cutting torches.
    * Operating the pumps of any fire vehicle at the scene of an emergency.
    * Driving a fire truck or any other emergency vehicle.
    * Entering a burning structure.
    * Operating high-pressure hose lines (water, air, or hydraulic), except training.
    * Ascending ladders, except training.
    * Operate any aerial device (cranes or hoists), non-automatic elevators, air bags for lifting or winches.
    * Perform operations in tunnels, shafts or trenches (greater than four (4) feet deep).
    * Participate in emergencies at explosives or fireworks plants, retailers, or in support of public safety for

    A public display.

    * Participate in operations with incidents involving paint, acid, or poisons.
    * Participate in operations involving radioactive substances.
    * Rooftop ventilation or any work on top of a roof.
    * Wrecking or demolition including use of acetylene torches, cutting or crushing equipment, or respond to structural collapse incidents.
    * Entry into a hazardous atmosphere. (including training)

    B. PERMITTED ACTIVITIES OF JUNIOR FIREFIGHTERS

    NOTE: Each member must be under the direct supervision and control of the Fire Chief or a trained experienced officer over 21 years of age. Direct supervision means that the officer must be within speaking and touching distance of the junior member. They may:

    * Train in all aspects of fire suppression training except interior live fire extinguishment
    * Water supply training
    * Safety training
    * Wild land firefighting
    * Clean up with the following conditions:

    Must be outside the fire building collapse zone

    Only after the incident is declared under control by Command Must be "on air" if working in a fire area

    Provide canteen service

    * Attacking the fire with hose lines as part of exterior operations
    * Setting ladders
    * Setting up Positive Pressure Ventilation as part of exterior operations
    * Salvage operations
    * Establishing water supply

    Members can participate in above activities only if:

    * They have passed apparatus knowledge, tool knowledge, ladder knowledge, water supply knowledge, and attended fifty percent (50%) of the training session requirements after three- (3) month probation.





    C. PROBATION

    During the probation period, the new member may not respond to calls except during training. Requirements:

    1. Completes 3 months of service

    2. Attend 50 % of all scheduled meetings
    3. Have an understanding of the Hardin County Fire Department Operations and apparatus,

    Accountability, command structure, safety and hydrant operations.

    Failure to complete the probationary requirements will result in a one-time extension of the probationary period. Continued failure to complete the probationary requirements will result in loss of membership. If this happens, a new application must be resubmitted.

    4. DRIVING PERSONAL VEHICLES

    1. All Junior Firefighters must report to the station for all calls. If all apparatus have responded when you arrive at the station, junior members are to stand by at the station until either a senior member of the Hardin County Fire Department drives them to the scene or wait until the department returns from the call to assist in clean-up.

    2. Only members 16 years of age and older that have a valid Tennessee driver's license may drive personal vehicles to the fire station.
    3. At NO time is a Junior Firefighter permitted to use a red light, hazard lights, any type of flashing or blinking light, honk horn, or use any other warning system on any type of motorized vehicle. THEY MUST OBEY ALL TRAFFIC LAWS!! (In route to the station or any other time.) UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ARE JUNIUR FIREFIGHTERS TO GO DIRECTLY TO THE SCENE OF AN EMERGENCY!!!
    4. All speed limits and traffic laws are to be strictly followed while responding to a call;
    5. The Hardin County Fire Department is in no way responsible or liable for any moving violations or accidents while enroute to or from the station for a call or training.

    6. Failure to abide by the rules will result in a suspension of at least thirty (30) days and possible expulsion from the Fire Department.

    5. RESPONDING TO CALLS ON APPARATUS
    6. Junior Firefighter will obtain verbal permission from the officer or senior member in charge of an apparatus before boarding an apparatus. The officer or senior member must be willing and able to supervise the junior firefighter at all times.

    2. Junior Firefighter, in reverse seniority, shall give up their seat to any senior firefighter upon request. No questions or arguing just get up your seat and wait for the next unit going to the scene.

    3. When riding a piece of apparatus, Junior Firefighters shall sit in the apparatus and under no circumstance stand up.

    4. Junior Firefighters shall remain in the apparatus until given instructions by the officer.

    5. Junior Firefighters shall at no time start, attempt to start or move any piece of fire apparatus (including special unit).

    6. MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENTS AND MEDICALS

    Junior Firefighters are prohibited from responding or assisting in motor vehicle accidents and medical calls.



  4. #84
    Forum Member mtg55's Avatar
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    RS, this should answer everything you asked. Thanks for the research Cappy. Please print this out and give it to the powers that be in your FD. Take the initiative to keep your dept out of trouble.
    Matt G.
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  5. #85
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cappy05 View Post
    I think Jr programs are important but as I think it was BSFD that said jrs are difficult to keep control off. Mostly it is because of the excitement and eagerness. SOmetimes jrs. corget they are kids.
    Not at our place. It is Standard Operating Procedure, ingrained into their heads from the moment that they are qualified to ride, that they must be under the direct supervision of an Officer at all times. When there is not an officer available to supervise their activity, they must remain with the piece of apparatus that they came in on, and act under the Driver/Operator.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  6. #86
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    thank you very much Cappy05 i am going to take this to my chief today since i get out of school early today for spring break. that answerd all my questions about the hose line.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  7. #87
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Can you please cite the code section? I am interested in seeing this.
    Hey Buff - sorry I let this slide for so long - I don't get on here much anymore - just a lunch break here -n- there - and I let this one get past me.

    What you are looking for is Code of Virginia
    § 40.1-79.1. Exemptions from chapter generally; local ordinance authorizing participation in volunteer fire company activities

    Here is the page on the State Fire Programs website listing the code section
    http://www.vafire.com/training/opera...rFFPolicy.html

    And here is the VA Legislative Information System (LIS) site where you can read the current code section(s) as they have changed slightly in verbage since the DFP page was created in 04.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC

    Other code sections referenced in § 40.1-79.1 are:
    § 40.1-100. Certain employment prohibited or limited.
    § 40.1-103. Cruelty and injuries to children; penalty; abandoned infant.

    If you use the LIS - the referenced sections are Hyperlinked for faster look-up.

    ** Edit ** Almost forgot - here's the code section that our County adopted.

    Sec. 8-19. Participation by certain minors in volunteer fire company activities.
    Pursuant to the authority of section 40.1-79.1 of the Code of Virginia, the county hereby authorizes any minor sixteen (16) years of age or older, with parental or guardian approval, to work with or participate fully in all activities of a volunteer fire company, provided such minor has attained certification under National Fire Protection Association 1001, Level One, fire-fighter standards, as administered by the state department of fire programs. Any trainer or instructor of such minor or any member of a paid or volunteer fire company who supervises such minor shall be exempt from the provisions of section 40.1-103 of the Code of Virginia, provided the volunteer fire company or the board of supervisors has purchased insurance which provides coverage for injuries to, or the death of, such minor in the performance of activities under this section.
    (Ord. of 7-20-04-(1))

    Online Reference: http://library1.municode.com/default-now/home.htm
    Last edited by N2DFire; 04-01-2010 at 01:33 PM.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  8. #88
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    alright thank you
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  9. #89
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    Just so yall know, i left one of the post i was in b/c they did not care about those laws that you all sent to me. Was that the right thing for me to do?
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  10. #90
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    i honestly feel good about it.
    Last edited by RS1606; 04-20-2010 at 01:46 PM.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  11. #91
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    Just so yall know, i left one of the post i was in b/c they did not care about those laws that you all sent to me. Was that the right thing for me to do?
    Without knowing the circumstances, I cannot answer the question.

    Did you approach the leadership in a respectable manner, requesting to have a closed-door meeting?? Or did you just blurt out "Hey there are laws that say what we can and cannot do" in front of a bunch of people, or in a disrespectful fashion? When you say "they did not care", did they not care because they truly do not care, or do they not care because some kid armed with some knowledge tried to change their world overnight?

    If they truly dont care, then you probably did the right thing.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  12. #92
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    it wasent closed door, but it was not infront of every one. at the meeting they asked if there were any concerns about the post, i said yes, i said that i have realized that we may be violating some of the child labor laws, his words were "and?" so i responded and asked if that did not matter to him. he said no, so i resigned from the post. i told them i was no longer going to be part of a violation to law.
    For once i think i made a honest and smart decision. im not sure what you all think about that. I hope it was the right thing to do.

    oh, but to answer your closed door question more, it was a closed door explorer officer meeting.
    Last edited by RS1606; 04-20-2010 at 12:48 PM. Reason: added more.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  13. #93
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    For once i think i made a honest and smart decision. im not sure what you all think about that. I hope it was the right thing to do.
    I still remain unsure about whether resigning was necessary; you might have hung around and tried to help better them, or perhaps have continued up the chain of command until your grievances reached the right ears. However, you made the decision that you thought was honest and smart. I would never bust on you for that. You stood up for what you thought was right. I put my hand out to you. Here's a little quote I have hanging on my office wall:

    "Uncomprimising Integrity is my standard. My character and honor are steadfast. My word is my bond."

    This is from the United States Navy BUD/S (seals!) Creed.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  14. #94
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    thank you sir, im trying to improve the person i am, and i still have a hard time with controleing my smarting off, and how much i argue. i will keep that quote in mind, and i also apologise for the times i have smarted off. keep safe sir
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

  15. #95
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    thank you sir, im trying to improve the person i am, and i still have a hard time with controleing my smarting off, and how much i argue. i will keep that quote in mind, and i also apologise for the times i have smarted off. keep safe sir
    You sound like you are a good kid with a lot of heart. You could go places in the career fire world. Do well in high school, get yourself into a branch of the Military and do 4 years active duty (and while you are in the Military, get a college degree on Uncle Sam's tab.....) When you get an honorable discharge out, start testing with the big cities.

    One other thing kid....Learn what "spell check" is.........
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  16. #96
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    You sound like you are a good kid with a lot of heart. You could go places in the career fire world. Do well in high school, get yourself into a branch of the Military and do 4 years active duty (and while you are in the Military, get a college degree on Uncle Sam's tab.....) When you get an honorable discharge out, start testing with the big cities.

    One other thing kid....Learn what "spell check" is.........
    i'm wanting to be a night stalker like my father, i know its a goal i may never get to, so my dad is also the reason that i wana be a firefighter, i want to be as good or better than my dad if that is possible. but unlike my dad i **** alot of people off due to my additude and being bipolar.

    Also i use spell check at home, but the internet at school has no spell check on it =( i get to be on here during school, because im in a blog/ web design class.
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    our captian said that if we do the math and we are still in the shadow of the building we are to close. so he usaly has us stay 25 FT out of the shadow. if the sun is fully up.
    I bet your captain is some " Joe Bob " Fire captain who works full time at the local auto zone, Has emergency lights on his POV so bright he can be seen responding from 3 districts away, and painted his helmet red with that new plastic spray paint I see advertised on the TV.

    I do however enjoy reading your posts. Every time some one calls you out your information gets a little bit more logic to it.

    Just my 2 cents

    But atleast now I know if im fighting a fire and im not in a shadow im safe.

    Good thing I just got these new bunker boots cause its getting awfully deep in here.

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    RS1606 I have a few questions for you.

    1. Are you really an explorer or do you just enjoy getting on here and running that little mouth of yours.

    2. What organization or department “are you” a explorer and in what state.

    3. How old are you and why do you continue to question the.. oh I don't know 1000's of years of fire house experience from people both paid and volunteer that keep telling you the same information over and over again.

    4. What does your department Chief, Not your 17 year old explorer Chief feel about you putting this stuff all over the internet? I know that if this stuff that you says is realy going on, and I was the fire chief, I would be utterly embarrassed that this information was being posted all over an internet forum viewed by firefighters all over the world.

    Being a firefighter is about being an adult. So if your true about being a firefighter you will be willing to put all the information I requested from you on here.

    And if you really have a set of balls you will post Chief Sharps phone number to the station he works out of so I can call him and ask him the same questions

    Just my 2 cents
    Last edited by VincentEng2; 05-15-2010 at 11:20 PM.

  19. #99
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VincentEng2 View Post
    Being a firefighter is about being an adult. So if your true about being a firefighter you will be willing to put all the information I requested from you on here.

    And if you really have a set of balls you will post Chief Sharps phone number to the station he works out of so I can call him and ask him the same questions
    These matters have already been taken up with the OP. He has been made brutally aware of the situation, informed of the error of his organization's ways, and advised of pertinent Federal and State laws regarding child labor regulations and entry into hot/IDLH zones. He has asked honest, intelligent questions, and advised that he has discussed the matter with his Department. There is no further need to discuss the situation, or belittle him any more than he has already been.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  20. #100
    Forum Member RS1606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    These matters have already been taken up with the OP. He has been made brutally aware of the situation, informed of the error of his organization's ways, and advised of pertinent Federal and State laws regarding child labor regulations and entry into hot/IDLH zones. He has asked honest, intelligent questions, and advised that he has discussed the matter with his Department. There is no further need to discuss the situation, or belittle him any more than he has already been.
    thanks FWD
    Firefighters need not fear fire, but give it all their respect.

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