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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    Personally I get enough "babysitting" keeping the members of the Department in the right track......." get your SCBA on".... and the billion other little things that EVERY FIRE DEPT. deals with and goes through daily......
    The absolute worst thing in the world is a closed mind. You have zero experience, by your own admission, with the junior program yet you happily dismiss it with a wave of your hand.

    Please tell me why, for example, having juniors learn the ins and outs of the fire service before becoming full-fledged members is a bad thing? When I was brand spanking new I had *no* idea what anything on any of the trucks were aside from the damned hoselines. And even those, I wasn't aware of the difference between hard suction and soft suction hose, or why you'd deploy a 1 3/4" hose over a 2 1/2" hose. Even now, there are still things I'm learning. So, why is it bad to take a 16 year old into the department, show him what everything is, how everything works, and how everything is properly deployed for several years before he becomes a full-fledged member and can deal with issues in the hot zone? And I'll be honest - sometimes I feel our juniors are better trained than some of the senior members. Some of the members have been volunteering for 20 years and have no desire to do any more training because "I know it all already". Like I said, nothing worse than a closed-minded attitude. The juniors, however, practice every second week, and have bi-annual large training exercises set up by the province. They will be *much* better trained if and when they go into the regular service than some joe sixpack off the street who decides he wants to volunteer at the fire department.

    Handled correctly, there are no detriments to the junior program - only a lot of significant pluses. In addition to well-trained individuals becoming regular firefighters when they reach 18, it is wonderful for the kids as well. They get to learn new things, have an activity that helps keep them out of trouble (they can be boot off the program if they pull the usual stunts bored teens do such as drinking and drugs), and something great to put on their resume. The only reason I see posted for not wanting juniors is a cranky old arse waving his cane and muttering about those damned kids...

    Cheers and have fun with the Juniors.......
    I will. Thank you. Have fun with your pre-developed attitudes. In the interim, you may want to look into thorazine...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    Nope, don;t have Juniors or Explorers......in fact NO ONE anywhere remotely close has anything like that....

    As I don;t have any "first hand" experience with them...all I have had to go by was what is posted here and heard in conversation....and to be honest..I still CAN'T SEE allowing these kids to do even 1/4 pf the "stuff" that they are apparently being allowed to do...

    As I said before, I;m glad that there are Explorer / Junior programs that seem to "work" for the members and Departments......I just can;t see it...and I would NEVER put myself, my Department or members in a situation where issues could arise and have really crappy outcomes...

    hey each and everyone to their own...apparently I am in the minority here in thinking that FIRE DEPT'S and Firefighters have BETTER things to do than babysit....

    and as for Police Explorers...cool I guess....Do they give the kids guns and handcuffs?...do they let them drive around in the cars? do they take the kids to domestic assaults and high speed chases? how about stabbings and riots?...

    Why not right?......its the same thing....those are what the cops do...we go to "our" emergencies, fires, MVC's, med calls, Haz mat etc....and no one seems to think that having kids along for "the ride" in Fire Explorers / juniors is a bad idea or simply dangerous.....

    anyway.....I just glad that in my area kids are kids...not playing wannabe Firefighter.....that leaves us problem free, and with time to do OUR jobs....

    I just see it as a stupid idea....full of potential issues....not for me I guess..Oh well.....

    Guess I;ll just concentrate on raising my own kids right and not try to solve all the other kids problems through a Juniors program......
    So, basically you are basing this just on what you have read here and not on personal experience right? That's pretty much stereotyping people based on what you have read on a forum. How about you guys try out a Junior program you might actually learn to like them instead of THINKING that you hate them without any experience with them.

    Just a thought....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    Nope, don;t have Juniors or Explorers......in fact NO ONE anywhere remotely close has anything like that....

    As I don;t have any "first hand" experience with them...all I have had to go by was what is posted here and heard in conversation....and to be honest..I still CAN'T SEE allowing these kids to do even 1/4 pf the "stuff" that they are apparently being allowed to do...
    So it's okay if I was to judge your department's members, apparatus, strategy and tactics simply based off what I've read on the internet and heard in conversation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    What I have read coming out from some of these "Explorers and Juniors" here just reinforced my opinion....

    Other "explorers" have shown great foresight and fire related people skills in their posts.....

    But hey what ever.......and my "view of the world" is pretty dambed expansive...and if in YOUR world...babysitting teenagers pretending to be Firefighters is all you got going on...so be it....all the power to ya......
    So, you damn the entire concept based on some annonymous internet postings.

    I can tell you, once again, as someone with almost 30 years of experience with a junior firefighter program, its not babysitting and its been a great way to develop future firefighters.

    In fact, our Juniors take all the classroom portion of the state's firefighter one program. When they turn 18, they finish with the fireground evolutions and hands on.

    But hey, why throw in facts... its better to just hate a concept because a couple of folks gave you the wrong impression on an internet forum.

    You know what I have seen? Most guys who have such a visceral reaction to Juniors are the same ones who wear, "I fight what you fear" t-shirts and are in general just ****ed off because it somehow threatens their macho attitude towards firefighting.

    To them, I say get over it and just get another t-shirt.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 105 View Post
    Handled correctly, there are no detriments to the junior program - only a lot of significant pluses. In addition to well-trained individuals becoming regular firefighters when they reach 18, it is wonderful for the kids as well. They get to learn new things, have an activity that helps keep them out of trouble (they can be boot off the program if they pull the usual stunts bored teens do such as drinking and drugs), and something great to put on their resume. The only reason I see posted for not wanting juniors is a cranky old arse waving his cane and muttering about those damned kids...
    That's a great point.

    I've been there, done that.

    We've had kids who wanted to become/stay a junior so bad, they pulled up their grades (we require them to present the chief their school report cards each marking period). We've had parents who came to us for help with a problem kid, and we've helped them turn him around... in fact, one went on to do well in school and join the military.

    I'm sure it will be written off as "babysitting", but in reality its about community and having a strong fire department.

    But who cares about that... right? Its all about the t-shirt.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Ok,

    SO , in re reading my posts they do come off totally harsh...

    Listen, I wasn;t being sarcastic when I said...hey if it works for you all...then cool.....

    I guess my "experience" with the Explorers/juniors IS limited...no denying that..as I did state though...my opinions are based on my OWN assessment and in TALKING personally with Firefighters and Officers that ARE involved in Junior type programs...the internet forum posts have only reinforced what I have heard and my own opinions for the most part...

    Again, my concerns with the whole concept is LIABILITY..were will the "buck" stop?...by MANY posts here AND hearing from Officers / FF's involved elsewhere the issues of "Juniors" getting in the way, over stepping their "boundries" at scenes and generally "give me more" attitude is NOT limited to just one or two locations BUt seems to be far more wide spread....

    NOW, GIVEN that NOT ALL the kids involved will be like this...in fact I;m sure that SOME will be OUTSTANDING and take it seriously and learn alot....

    HOWEVER, can / does the benifits from a few GOOD Juniors outweigh the RISKS posed by the mediochre to poor Juniors?....

    And to this point NO ONE has been able to answer my base question.....IF the Juniors are "allowed" to ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE at fire scenes....where does the LIABILITY REST?.....is it worth the risks involved?

    IT has been stated on here and elsewhere and in CONVERSATION that it seems like a natural reaction for the Juniors to "want" to do MORE, be more....SO, where is the limits drawn?......

    I can;t see how any Department in todays environment can "afford" to have manpower assigned to simply monitor/control/supervise Juniors while at an emergency.....

    SO where is the IAFF stance on "juniors" participating actively on Fire Scenes?...

    I know in Ontario Canada the entire Province BANNED even the practical / experience part of allowing COLLEGE Students in the Fire Services courses ( see FULLY TRAINED and CERTIFIED) to ride on apparatus or participate in fire scene activities....the Departments weighed the benifits and the risks and stopped the practice of it ...

    SO, IF fully qualified but still pre grads were found to be a RISK, then my question is simply this....how can even younger, less experienced NOT qualified teenagers be allowed to participate?.....would not the risk be even higher?

    and in all honesty, IF the system works for you ...then I 'm happy it DOES work for you......

    and perhaps my viewpoint is a bit "anti" Juniors.....however, as you have clearly stated..and RESPECTFULLY...YOU were a Junior yourself...so COULD perhaps YOUR viewpoint be slanted to a PRO JUNIOR one?.....

    I guess from what some of you have said, it seems like the program DOES attract problem kids..ones who's parents get them into it for "help"...so tell me HONESTLY, how do teens that are essentially FORCED into a program by their parents make out in it?...what about the resentment and general displeasure and animosity that the teens would feel about the "situation"?...couldn't that reaction cause even greater risks?...I mean lets face it...most teens DON'T think about cause and effect of their actions to well...

    anyway...I will take some advice ...I WILL look into the Juniors programs more...maybe try to gain some first hand "experience in it.....will it change my opinion...maybe...who knows....but to me, alot of the risks are simply to realistic and possible to ignore...I guess time will tell...

    Here is a legitimate question.....are these Junior Programs generally found more in the Volunteer Departments or in Career Departments?.....how do Career Departments manage the overtime pay for FF's / Officers that are involved?....How do they get the Union on board with the program?...cause those would be some of the initial stumbling blocks I could see....

    Oh and for the record...I don;t own ANY WHACKER FD T-shirtsd at all....only Department ISSUED ones.....lol..nor do I have lights all over my POV...not even a sticker....

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    So it's okay if I was to judge your department's members, apparatus, strategy and tactics simply based off what I've read on the internet and heard in conversation?
    WHY NOT......it's done here all the time........

    just as an example..:LAfireeducator......NONE of you KNOW him..his Department etc........yet there is a constant barrage of critisim dumped on him and other too.......

    AND NO, I don;t agree with alot of what LA says.......nor do I support him or anyone else......

    I just wanted to point it out as a prime example....it's no different the crappy comments made about "ability" etc from the "right coast to the Left Coast" that happens all the time.....

    Or hey, even better how about the comments made regarding the "Ability" of the European Fire Departments?......have many of those that dump on them all the time have BEEN to Europe and spent any time with their Fire Departments?.......NOT MANY I'm sure...yet it is exceptable "practice" to make judgements based on incomplete info or "internet" in those cases right?..

    and this isn;t a personal attack.........just pointing out facts


    SO, by all these Supporting the Juniors comments and posts, am I to assume that none of YOU all have issues or concerns with having kids on hoselines at fires?.....doing accountability?..or hey even "popping doors" at MVC's?....or how about INVOLVED at Med calls?...cause that is where my concerns are.....

    SO , am I wrong for having those concerns?......
    Last edited by Northern Lights FF; 05-19-2011 at 11:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    ...my opinions are based on my OWN assessment and in TALKING personally with Firefighters and Officers that ARE involved in Junior type programs...
    Keeping in mind that if these guys didn't want the juniors around in the first place, then of course they're going to talk bad about the program.

    Again, my concerns with the whole concept is LIABILITY..were will the "buck" stop?...by MANY posts here AND hearing from Officers / FF's involved elsewhere the issues of "Juniors" getting in the way, over stepping their "boundries" at scenes and generally "give me more" attitude is NOT limited to just one or two locations BUt seems to be far more wide spread....
    We have a meeting with prospective junior members and their parents before they're even voted into the department, and let them know exactly what their roles are, what they're limited to do, what they're prohibited from doing, and make expectations clear. Then we stick to these rules. The officers of the department are willing to accept the responsibility for having the juniors on the scene.

    HOWEVER, can / does the benifits from a few GOOD Juniors outweigh the RISKS posed by the mediochre to poor Juniors?
    Don't keep the mediocre juniors in the program, and then you don't have this issue.

    And to this point NO ONE has been able to answer my base question.....IF the Juniors are "allowed" to ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE at fire scenes....where does the LIABILITY REST?.....is it worth the risks involved?
    Once again, liability rests on the officers and/or IC. That being said, I think you have a completely fuzzy idea of what it's like to have juniors on a scene.

    I can;t see how any Department in todays environment can "afford" to have manpower assigned to simply monitor/control/supervise Juniors while at an emergency.
    Now, my answers will switch from the junior program we have at my VFD to the Explorer program we have at work. Our Explorer's can take a very limited role at the scene of a fire when they ride with us. Before they can even ride, their Explorer Advisors have put them through specific training, and then we continue that when they're riding with us. All of that being said, they're assigned to assist the driver with his duties in the event we respond to a working fire. Should the driver be assigned a role in the IDLH, the Explorer will go to the command post area and standby until his crew is operating in a safe area again.

    I know in Ontario Canada the entire Province BANNED even the practical / experience part of allowing COLLEGE Students in the Fire Services courses ( see FULLY TRAINED and CERTIFIED) to ride on apparatus or participate in fire scene activities....the Departments weighed the benifits and the risks and stopped the practice of it ...
    That's a loss for those folks, indeed.

    and perhaps my viewpoint is a bit "anti" Juniors.....however, as you have clearly stated..and RESPECTFULLY...YOU were a Junior yourself...so COULD perhaps YOUR viewpoint be slanted to a PRO JUNIOR one?.....
    I joined my VFD right after I turned 18, so I wasn't a junior. I was, however, a police Explorer from 14-18, an experience that helped prepare me for the real world like nothing else, and was a time I wouldn't trade for anything. Does that make me pro-junior/pro-Explorer? Nah. I just recognize that it takes good leadership in both of these programs in order for the young people to be successful in the roles we place upon them.

    I guess from what some of you have said, it seems like the program DOES attract problem kids..ones who's parents get them into it for "help"...so tell me HONESTLY, how do teens that are essentially FORCED into a program by their parents make out in it?
    I don't doubt that this probably happens in some instances, but it's certainly the exception, not the rule! I've never encountered this.

    Here is a legitimate question.....are these Junior Programs generally found more in the Volunteer Departments or in Career Departments?.....how do Career Departments manage the overtime pay for FF's / Officers that are involved?....How do they get the Union on board with the program?...cause those would be some of the initial stumbling blocks I could see.
    We have the junior program at the VFD, so no money involved. At work, we have the Explorer program, and three FF's that are assigned as Advisors to the program. They meet/train twice a month, and the Advisors are paid straight-time or time-and-a-half for their time at the meetings/training events (depends on if they've taken time off during the same pay period). Our department operates on a $50,000,000 annual budget, so a few dollars of overtime once or twice a month for the program isn't a huge impact.

    The union could care less, and certainly doesn't see the program as a liability to any of our career positions. I've never heard the Explorer program mentioned at a union meeting.

    It comes down to this: our chief is a strong believer in giving today's youth every opportunity to better themselves, and if providing them with an Explorer program helps do that, he'll find a way to fund it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    SO, by all these Supporting the Juniors comments and posts, am I to assume that none of YOU all have issues or concerns with having kids on hoselines at fires?.....doing accountability?..or hey even "popping doors" at MVC's?....or how about INVOLVED at Med calls?...cause that is where my concerns are.....
    None of these things are allowed to be done by either our juniors (VFD) or Explorers (work).
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    Thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view better Box.....

    I guess IF I had have explained my concerns better in the first place.....

    I am glad to see that your programs have limits and that as you said NONE of your juniors / explorers are allowed to do any of those things.......

    BUT, I am sure that You as well as I have read COUNTLESS posts here from "Juniors"/Explorers that are stating as fact that they ARE doing these things in their Posts and Departments...some even complain that they want to do MORE and "arn;t allowed"...so that the Departments and Firefighters are "BAD" for not giving into their wants........

    I guess it;s those situations were there isn;t enough control maintained and were these kids are allowed to be involved that is my concern.........cause what YOU described sure doesn't sound like what the actual explorers/juniors here are posting about........and for that matter what I have heard FF's/Officersd saying about SOME kids in their programs.

    I guess you have a point about keeping "mediochre" Juniors in a program.....HOWEVER, in todays world...could the Department NOT be opening itself up for legal issues IF you simply boot kids that aren;t as "good" as others out?.......

    I mean, they sue FD's for being discriminated against for be too short, race, intelligence.... I could see some kid sueing saying he was descriminated against for behavioural problems or something.....How can any standard that is put into place..like school grades etc. be enforced?..can you kick a kid out for being learning impared?....

    The boy scouts have been sued every which way but Sunday for years....same as various sports leagues etc.

    just some thoughts......
    Last edited by Northern Lights FF; 05-19-2011 at 11:42 AM.

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    Hey Box,

    When you were a Police Explorer, what were you "allowed" to do?....just curious...

    surely they didn't allow ride alongs or responses?

    my question I guess, is why would there be such a difference in what Explorers would / could do....both professions are dangerous...each have their own unique risks.....would one outweigh the other?

    also, how do kids get "voted" into the program?...do other kids have a vote?...Could this not be construed as discrimmination IF a kid isn't voted in ?

    I mean, kids are fickle and "popularity" is what its all about for many of them...so do unpopular kids Not get voted in?...really curious, cause even Volly dept's that Vote in chiefs and officers operate in a archiac and liableous way in my opinion......and it seems like it's alot of "popularity"there too......
    Last edited by Northern Lights FF; 05-19-2011 at 11:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    Again, my concerns with the whole concept is LIABILITY..were will the "buck" stop?...by MANY posts here AND hearing from Officers / FF's involved elsewhere the issues of "Juniors" getting in the way, over stepping their "boundries" at scenes and generally "give me more" attitude is NOT limited to just one or two locations BUt seems to be far more wide spread....
    Of course there is liability. There is a liability in most of what we do. The important thing is the controls and risk prevention you have in place to limit it.

    HOWEVER, can / does the benifits from a few GOOD Juniors outweigh the RISKS posed by the mediochre to poor Juniors?....
    Our junior program is under the exclusive domain of the Chief. It is his program. The Chief can drop a junior for any infractions. As for mediocre... well, not sure what that exactly means. They are students, they are learning and that is how they must be handled.
    And to this point NO ONE has been able to answer my base question.....IF the Juniors are "allowed" to ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE at fire scenes....where does the LIABILITY REST?.....is it worth the risks involved?
    We are guided by our child labor laws. Basically, they cannot operate in a hazard area, operate machinery, etc... even a fire extinguisher is off limits.

    IT has been stated on here and elsewhere and in CONVERSATION that it seems like a natural reaction for the Juniors to "want" to do MORE, be more....SO, where is the limits drawn?.....
    .

    The limits are made very clear and as the Chief I always made it clear. One misstep and you are gone. There is no appeal, there is no committee.. It is 100% the Chief's call.

    I can;t see how any Department in todays environment can "afford" to have manpower assigned to simply monitor/control/supervise Juniors while at an emergency.....
    On scene, they mostly gopher for the apparatus operator or do minor things outside the fire area (rehab, dragging, rolling hose)... they do a lot of the grunt work.

    SO where is the IAFF stance on "juniors" participating actively on Fire Scenes?...
    I couldn't care.

    I know in Ontario Canada the entire Province BANNED even the practical / experience part of allowing COLLEGE Students in the Fire Services courses ( see FULLY TRAINED and CERTIFIED) to ride on apparatus or participate in fire scene activities....the Departments weighed the benifits and the risks and stopped the practice of it ...
    Okay... not the case here.

    SO, IF fully qualified but still pre grads were found to be a RISK, then my question is simply this....how can even younger, less experienced NOT qualified teenagers be allowed to participate?.....would not the risk be even higher?
    I guess Canada has different rules and accept different levels of risk. I'm confidant in our program and that our juniors are never placed in any exceedingly risky position.

    and perhaps my viewpoint is a bit "anti" Juniors.....however, as you have clearly stated..and RESPECTFULLY...YOU were a Junior yourself...so COULD perhaps YOUR viewpoint be slanted to a PRO JUNIOR one?.....
    Yes, based on my first hand, practical experience there is a tremendous value in a good junior program. You bet your *** I'm biased. Just like I'm biased towards using CAFS.

    I guess from what some of you have said, it seems like the program DOES attract problem kids..ones who's parents get them into it for "help"...so tell me HONESTLY, how do teens that are essentially FORCED into a program by their parents make out in it?...what about the resentment and general displeasure and animosity that the teens would feel about the "situation"?...couldn't that reaction cause even greater risks?...I mean lets face it...most teens DON'T think about cause and effect of their actions to well...
    It doesn't attract "problem kids". It attracts teens between 16 and 18. I would venture to say that most teenagers have challenges...

    NOone is forced that I've ever seen and they wouldn't last if they didn't want to be there.

    We require a "C" average to remain active.

    anyway...I will take some advice ...I WILL look into the Juniors programs more...maybe try to gain some first hand "experience in it.....will it change my opinion...maybe...who knows....but to me, alot of the risks are simply to realistic and possible to ignore...I guess time will tell...
    You can have your opinion and I don't really care what you think. However, I will offer my counter opinion backed by my experience in the matter.



    Here is a legitimate question.....are these Junior Programs generally found more in the Volunteer Departments or in Career Departments?.....how do Career Departments manage the overtime pay for FF's / Officers that are involved?....How do they get the Union on board with the program?...cause those would be some of the initial stumbling blocks I could see....
    My department is volunteer... can't speak to career, but probably not as likely.

    Oh and for the record...I don;t own ANY WHACKER FD T-shirtsd at all....only Department ISSUED ones.....lol..nor do I have lights all over my POV...not even a sticker....
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    Here is a great little flyer from.... VFIS, an insurance company. It's very supportive of the concept of a Junior/Explorer program.

    http://www.fasny.com/pdfs/YouthInfo_...hterManual.pdf
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view better Box.....
    Happy to.

    BUT, I am sure that You as well as I have read COUNTLESS posts here from "Juniors"/Explorers that are stating as fact that they ARE doing these things in their Posts and Departments...some even complain that they want to do MORE and "arn;t allowed"...so that the Departments and Firefighters are "BAD" for not giving into their wants.
    I read these posts with a grain of salt. There's a lot of attempt on the internet to "show up" the previous poster, so I have no doubt that there are some posters on here posting that "our regional tech rescue team called me to help them set up a Z-drag for them..." and none of it's true. I'm not going to bother calling them out on it, I've got more constructive things to do. The old "I read it on the internet, it must be true!" comes to mind.

    However, I bet that there ARE some departments with less-than-desirable leadership that might be allowing their juniors to do door pops and exposure protection. I don't support this, and would never defend it either.

    And if the junior wants to call the department "bad" for not letting them do something they want, so be it. Hopefully, as they grow older, they'll gain a better understanding of why they weren't allowed to do some of the more dangerous activities.

    I mean, they sue FD's for being discriminated against for be too short, race, intelligence.... I could see some kid sueing saying he was descriminated against for behavioural problems or something.....How can any standard that is put into place..like school grades etc. be enforced?..can you kick a kid out for being learning impared?....
    I was referring to the members who are either doing dangerous things on the fireground or during training, not being active, or other issues like that...not just kicking them out for the sake of it. Simply being mediocre itself isn't a reason to get rid of them - god knows we have plenty of mediocre career guys on the line!

    When you were a Police Explorer, what were you "allowed" to do?....just curious...

    surely they didn't allow ride alongs or responses?
    Yes, I did monthly ride-alongs, some GREAT times! Got involved in pursuits, DUI's, fatal accident investigations, all kinds of cool stuff. Once the officer I was riding with arrested the guy who sat next me in English class. That was a little awkward the next day in school. ;-)

    Aside from the ride-alongs, I used to play bad guy and/or victim for SWAT team training, competed at the national law enforcement explorer competition, we did a lot of fund raisers, would do "sit-alongs" in the communications center (which led to my 5-year-stint as a state police dispatcher), and would help out the PD with other various things in communications, property section, etc.

    We could not approach the vehicle on traffic stops, and the officers could have us remain in the car on dangerous calls. The officers also had the right to drop us off at the nearest fire station in the case that the situation warranted (although I never saw or heard of that actually happening).

    Our Advisors were VERY tight on the rules and regulations of the post. They had too much to risk if any of the members started to get the idea that they were were "almost" police officers.

    also, how do kids get "voted" into the program?...do other kids have a vote?...Could this not be construed as discrimmination IF a kid isn't voted in ?
    In the Explorer program, the Advisors made the decision who was allowed into, or dismissed from, the program. At the VFD, the senior membership makes the decision, based on a recommendation from the Board of Directors, who meets with the Junior in private.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 05-19-2011 at 12:20 PM.
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  15. #215
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    I don't think it is safe or a good idea for Jr's to be on the line at a structure fire.

    Stay safe

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    its my VFDs policy that Jrs (red helmets, which are members with <1yr time in dept((without interior cert)), any member under 18 ) have first crack on EXTERIOR lines in a DEFENSIVE attack. They are not packed up, they are not relied on for back up or egress protection for first in crew. they are just kind of there

    Allow me to explain

    for a long time we would get new members eager to start fighting fires, but with our call volume, and mandatory credentials and classes, we were losing new kids faster then they would join, they simply got tired of doing ALL the introductory grunt work just to sit on the side lines and roll hose after a big job. This is my policy i created and put into effect. its come with great reward. past few years our Jrs retention has stayed really solid. a complete turn around from past years and practice


    this policy is only carried out on strict pre-reqs . most importantly - the Jr crew is assigned to a Chief or Line officer at ALL times, attached at the hip, and monkey see monkey do on the fire ground. That officer is assigned to only those Jrs, and nothing else. The officer gets the Jrs assignment (which is ext hose advancement and nozzle work) generally this officer, depending on man power is a Lt or Capt, or even training officer, with a lot of time in, a lot of classroom and skills training. This Jrs Officer is appointed at the time of arrival by the IC and is his only job throughout the fire. Basically an overall safety officer only for the Jrs.

    last big job, I was the Jrs officer, and i have 4 kids with me. KIDS.


    it worked out very well. 1 on 1 instruction in a real live working fire (exterior only) a lot of hands on, a lot of instructional time, the whys whats wheres whos and whens being explained.

    this practice isnt carried out for every job, but most. a few jobs ago, we didnt have a lot of help until 2nd and 3rd due arrival and all hands working. the jrs were then assigned with the IC and didnt move unless he told them to, and it was only for small work non dangerous work

    im glad that this practice has worked out awesomely. keeping these kids interested in a period of low fire call volume is critical into keeping these kids hard up for this line of work. and i am seeing the results first hand. wide eyes, huge smiles, and kids staying all night resetting the trucks and back first thing in the morning for the play by play or cleaning the hall, voluntarily.


    again. your mileage may vary.
    Last edited by shotty355; 07-24-2011 at 01:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotty355 View Post
    its my VFDs policy that Jrs (red helmets, which are members with <1yr time in dept((without interior cert)), any member under 18 ) have first crack on EXTERIOR lines in a DEFENSIVE attack. They are not packed up, they are not relied on for back up or egress protection for first in crew. they are just kind of there

    Allow me to explain

    for a long time we would get new members eager to start fighting fires, but with our call volume, and mandatory credentials and classes, we were losing new kids faster then they would join, they simply got tired of doing ALL the introductory grunt work just to sit on the side lines and roll hose after a big job. This is my policy i created and put into effect. its come with great reward. past few years our Jrs retention has stayed really solid. a complete turn around from past years and practice


    this policy is only carried out on strict pre-reqs . most importantly - the Jr crew is assigned to a Chief or Line officer at ALL times, attached at the hip, and monkey see monkey do on the fire ground. That officer is assigned to only those Jrs, and nothing else. The officer gets the Jrs assignment (which is ext hose advancement and nozzle work) generally this officer, depending on man power is a Lt or Capt, or even training officer, with a lot of time in, a lot of classroom and skills training. This Jrs Officer is appointed at the time of arrival by the IC and is his only job throughout the fire. Basically an overall safety officer only for the Jrs.

    last big job, I was the Jrs officer, and i have 4 kids with me. KIDS.


    it worked out very well. 1 on 1 instruction in a real live working fire (exterior only) a lot of hands on, a lot of instructional time, the whys whats wheres whos and whens being explained.

    this practice isnt carried out for every job, but most. a few jobs ago, we didnt have a lot of help until 2nd and 3rd due arrival and all hands working. the jrs were then assigned with the IC and didnt move unless he told them to, and it was only for small work non dangerous work

    im glad that this practice has worked out awesomely. keeping these kids interested in a period of low fire call volume is critical into keeping these kids hard up for this line of work. and i am seeing the results first hand. wide eyes, huge smiles, and kids staying all night resetting the trucks and back first thing in the morning for the play by play or cleaning the hall, voluntarily.


    again. your mileage may vary.
    I certainly hope that the child labor laws of your state support your actions, or you better prepare to reap the whirlwind if you ever get someone hurt in an IDLH Environment/Collapse zone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    The department that I'm in allows explorers to be on a support line, (fight fire from outside the house). what our your opinions about this. Also do your departments let you do more, less, or same?
    no for the shere fact that even from the out side if things where to go worng they thend to vary fast also you never know what can be inside the stucture propaine....... just becuse you are out side dose not always mean in some itstences it is any safer than in side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenyon View Post
    no for the shere fact that even from the out side if things where to go worng they thend to vary fast also you never know what can be inside the stucture propaine....... just becuse you are out side dose not always mean in some itstences it is any safer than in side.
    Mr. Kenyon may I suggest that you employ spell check and then re-read your posts to ensure that it makes sense.

    What you are trying to say is that the situation outside of a structure has as much potential for danger as inside. This is incorrect. Every fireground has dangers that is true. The simple fact that your feet are firmly planted on solid ground, have escape routes, can see most dangers and dont have a ****ed off monster (fire) trying to kick your *** and take your doughnuts is a major plus.

    Anytime a junior is directly involved in a fireground operation there are brass watching, communications with them and they are placed in a position which will minimize any risks to them. Not all firegrounds are acceptable places for juniors. More than once the closest a junior has come to a fireground has been from the window of an engine or assisting the engineer.

    I've barely scratched the surface of many of the factors of a fireground. I have a feeling that you have very limited knowledge right now but dont give up you already have one valuable skill, that being the knowledge that you are never truly safe on a fireground. With that one skill you can live and learn and you will.

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    Oh boy... Where do I start... Well first of all I am a junior in the state on NY, and some of you other guys out there are lucky to even TOUCH ANY hoseline on the fireground. In my state if you do that, you, your family and your department will be BRUTALY SCREWED IN THE @$$ by the insurance dept, OSHA, and the state. And yes, they do train the hell out of us, but they are just preping us for when we are full members.

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