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    Default Tender Engine and Front Mount Pumps

    I am putting together specs for getting a price for the upcoming AFG federal grants. I am wondering what HP of engines people are putting into their tanker/tenders. We are a foothills community where elevation changes from 1000ft to 2500 in less than 6 miles. BUT i am looking for input from everyone.

    Additionally, we were discussing front mount pumps. They are popular around here, and our current tender is one. Does anyone know if they make "hot-shift" front mounts so that we can engage the pump while driving for pulling up on car fires and attacking w/ a remote monitor? I dont think it is possible, but said i would look into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drakescrossing View Post
    I am putting together specs for getting a price for the upcoming AFG federal grants. I am wondering what HP of engines people are putting into their tanker/tenders. We are a foothills community where elevation changes from 1000ft to 2500 in less than 6 miles. BUT i am looking for input from everyone.

    Additionally, we were discussing front mount pumps. They are popular around here, and our current tender is one. Does anyone know if they make "hot-shift" front mounts so that we can engage the pump while driving for pulling up on car fires and attacking w/ a remote monitor? I dont think it is possible, but said i would look into it.
    Be careful about putting a front mount on something that's going to be working the kind of grades that change your elevation that radically. Especially with the weight of a tanker, you're going to need some serious engine. That will demand lots of cooling. Unless your pump is nothing more than a pony pump, it will block air flow to the radiator. Even with a big fan (big power robber) you'll have challenges keeping it cool in the summer. What's your experience with the front mount you have now, and those of your neighbors?

    Would this be a good application for a crossmount? Or a main pump and a PTO drive pony pump for your pump and roll?

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    Default Performance Scans

    Talk to a reputable Fire Apparatus dealer. They can have their company run performance scans with the grade you want to climb, the size of vehicle to carry the amount of water and equipment you want to carry and some different examples of engine horsepower and torque. Then you will have a good understanding of what engine size it will take and how long and at what speed the truck will climb a grade.
    And as previously mentioned, climbing steep grades take serious horsepower and large cooling capacities. Which is better available on a custom chassis.

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    Experiences with front mounts in our area have been awesome. The only problems i have seen is someone left a training engine in an unheated building during winter break at the community college, and the pump to tank was leaking back to the pump and someone didnt open the drain. We hurt the pump when the temp hit below freezing for over two weeks. Dont remember if it cracked or what.

    In a county of about 18 volly/combo fire districts they all have a front mount in their fleet from what i remember. I know that the pump occludes air flow, but this has never really been a problem in relation to cooling. most of our emergency responses are downhill to mutual aid.

    As for out f/m tender, we love that the wheel base is relatively short at about 240-250. I dont remember exactly, when our engine is 210". We looked at a 1000gpm pto or a s/s with a pto for pump and roll, but have found the front mounts easiest to teach newbies on and great for scene visibility.

    I am just looking at whether i need 350hp, 400, 450....

    Thanks for your help chief.



    And the tank will be 3000-3500 gallons

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    Quote Originally Posted by drakescrossing View Post

    And the tank will be 3000-3500 gallons
    I would submit that you want all of the horsepower and torque you can get. Much as I prefer customs, this may be a good application for a heavy duty commercial. Something along the lines of a concrete mixer chassis, maybe even.

    There's an old story in the trucking industry where a truck was climbing a hill very slowly. A cop pulled up alongside and asked, "Can't you go any faster?" The driver replied, "Sure I can, but company policy requires me to stay with the truck!"

    You don't want to wind up with that truck.

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    For 3-4000,Even with GOOD gears, I'd be looking at 400+ but that's just me. An Automatic will use more hp than a gear tranny,class for class.As Donethat states,there are several nice software programs to help make driveline selections. Opt UP instead of Down as a Tanker spends all it's life loaded or hauling. The FEW empty miles don't count. I DISAGREE on Customs being better here. You won't find MANY Customs with TRUE ISX or KT 600's or BIG cats. You CAN,however find these in commercial truck lines which with a good operator will work fine for hauling water. Why can't you find "big blocks" in Customs? Because they can't shed enough heat or get a big enough radiator in them to cool under extreme conditions. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 03-08-2010 at 06:02 PM.

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    This is a new front mount pumper/tanker.
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    GO HERE FOR THE SOLUTION: http://www.titanbymack.com/
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    Well, if you can convince Navistar to drop a Mack into their chassis...... We have an all intnl fleet

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    Quote Originally Posted by drakescrossing View Post
    Well, if you can convince Navistar to drop a Mack into their chassis...... We have an all intnl fleet
    No I was thinking Harvesters and one Mack.......
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    I'd look to the Kenworth T800W chassis. Biggest radiator (in terms of area) you can find if I recall correctly.

    Also, if you're going with a front mount pump, this removes the need for a midship transmission. The absence of a midship tranny allows the use of 6th gear in the Allison 4000 series transmission. Using 6th gear allows you to choose a ring and pinion ratio that is 15% lower (numerically higher), than a truck using only 5th gear. This adds to your acceleration and climbing ability.

    It seems you'll be carrying at least 1,250 gallons, so NFPA limits top speed to 62 MPH, which again, allows you to choose a R&P ratio lower than a truck geared to run 68 MPH.

    Taking these factors into account, I don't think acceleration will be a big issue, as long as you don't go cheap on the engine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Why can't you find "big blocks" in Customs? Because they can't shed enough heat or get a big enough radiator in them to cool under extreme conditions. T.C.
    Spartan is offering the ISX15 in their Gladiator chassis. The 2-door model with an ISX15 and a 4500 series automatic programmed for all 6 gears would be a wicked tanker/tender chassis.
    Last edited by txgp17; 03-09-2010 at 02:33 AM.
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    Check out this front mount ownerd by the company just north of us.
    http://www.gowansknight.com/Washingt...ker%200807.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    I'd look to the Kenworth T800W chassis. Biggest radiator (in terms of area) you can find if I recall correctly.

    Also, if you're going with a front mount pump, this removes the need for a midship transmission. The absence of a midship tranny allows the use of 6th gear in the Allison 4000 series transmission. Using 6th gear allows you to choose a ring and pinion ratio that is 15% lower (numerically higher), than a truck using only 5th gear. This adds to your acceleration and climbing ability.

    It seems you'll be carrying at least 1,250 gallons, so NFPA limits top speed to 62 MPH, which again, allows you to choose a R&P ratio lower than a truck geared to run 68 MPH.

    Taking these factors into account, I don't think acceleration will be a big issue, as long as you don't go cheap on the engine.Spartan is offering the ISX15 in their Gladiator chassis. The 2-door model with an ISX15 and a 4500 series automatic programmed for all 6 gears would be a wicked tanker/tender chassis.
    WHILE this is TRUE,IT is NOT the ISX as you think it is. The FIRE TRUCK version of ISX is a mini-me,11.9 liter as I recall. It is NOT the 15 liter version. I'd be inclined to try the 13 or 15 liter International and see how it goes. The lil 330 hp one(E-one demo) we tried out did a respectable job in our hills. International WANTS our business and is changing certain parts of it's product line to reflect this. AND,if I wanted a TRUE ISX in an International,I could get it. NOT so with Spartan nor the other CUSTOM builders. For what it's worth,T.C.

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    A front mount built last year isn't helpful. The cooling requirements driven by the new emissions BS have greatly changes what can be done. Check with truck mfg.

    And be careful what appratus mfg you get the answers you want to hear from. Some of the cut rate guys will build anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    WHILE this is TRUE,IT is NOT the ISX as you think it is. The FIRE TRUCK version of ISX is a mini-me,11.9 liter as I recall. It is NOT the 15 liter version. I'd be inclined to try the 13 or 15 liter International and see how it goes. The lil 330 hp one(E-one demo) we tried out did a respectable job in our hills. International WANTS our business and is changing certain parts of it's product line to reflect this. AND,if I wanted a TRUE ISX in an International,I could get it. NOT so with Spartan nor the other CUSTOM builders. For what it's worth,T.C.
    T.C. - I thought the same thing but got my *** handed to me over in the engineer forum. Spartan is indeed shoving a 15L ISX into the Gladiator in the near future...
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    NEWS to me. Last I checked it was an ISX but the 11.9 in the Gladiator. Guess it's time to rattle Joe's cage. Thanks for the info,I'll get the skinny and get back. I'M STILL pretty sure it's the 11.9 in '10 up Gladiators.
    T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    NEWS to me. Last I checked it was an ISX but the 11.9 in the Gladiator. Guess it's time to rattle Joe's cage. Thanks for the info,I'll get the skinny and get back. I'M STILL pretty sure it's the 11.9 in '10 up Gladiators.
    T.C.
    Check Spartan's web site. I was a bit incredulous too, but there it is in whatever color it's in. Or they entered it wrong.

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    Ok here's the OFFICIAL deal. BOTH ISX will be offered in 2010( and beyond)the 11.9 AND the 15L. This from Joe Sullivan at Spartan. T.C.

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    Default Didn't mean to make you feel that way

    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    T.C. - I thought the same thing but got my *** handed to me over in the engineer forum. Spartan is indeed shoving a 15L ISX into the Gladiator in the near future...
    Hey Joel, hope you are kidding when you say you got your *** handed to you in the engineer forum, I didn't mean to do that to you my friend. I just happen to have the SparCon program on my computer and had time to check the info when I read the thread. As you know quite well, things change on a daily basis now when it comes to spec'ing apparatus out.

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    Tom - no, you did nothing wrong. I just pride myself on providing correct info, and I clearly blew that one... I'm sure it wasn't the first time and certainly won't be the last!
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    Glad to know I was Half right!hehe T.C.

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