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Thread: Cleveland Fire Dept., Fire exam, July 31st, 2010

  1. #426
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    So keeping conversation going, anyone doing specific training that may put them in better shape for a fire academy/fire service? I know endurance is a biggie, and crossfit is popular, but I'm sure a good platform of strength is required to begin with.

    Myself, I'm trying to get stronger at the main lifts (squat, deadlift, bench and military press) and supplementing them with pullups/chinups, pushups, dips and situps for high numbers/endurance. I run sometimes, but find my wind endurance stays with me even if I go a month without running, so I don't emphasize it or do it more than 1-2 times a week for 3-5 miles. I'd like to incorporate more useful training, so open to suggestion or would like to hear what others are doing for ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromCLE View Post
    So keeping conversation going, anyone doing specific training that may put them in better shape for a fire academy/fire service? I know endurance is a biggie, and crossfit is popular, but I'm sure a good platform of strength is required to begin with.

    Myself, I'm trying to get stronger at the main lifts (squat, deadlift, bench and military press) and supplementing them with pullups/chinups, pushups, dips and situps for high numbers/endurance. I run sometimes, but find my wind endurance stays with me even if I go a month without running, so I don't emphasize it or do it more than 1-2 times a week for 3-5 miles. I'd like to incorporate more useful training, so open to suggestion or would like to hear what others are doing for ideas.
    Circuit training...circuit training...circuit training!!! Sounds like you have a solid fitness foundation with strength exercises. Also, cardiovascular endurance is key. But in my experience, MUSCLE ENDURANCE was CRUCIAL in fire academy PT and evolutions. You must be able to exert a lot of physical strength repeatedly over a period of time without much rest in between tasks. The only training that builds muscular endurance of that kind is circuit training. I recommend that you continue with your cardiovascular training and core strength training (squats, deadlift, presses). But when doing pull-ups/chin-ups, pushups and dips, don't take more than 20-30 seconds rest between sets. THAT is firefighter strength.
    Last edited by zarack808; 09-03-2011 at 05:31 PM.

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    No, what I'm saying is the City of Cleveland could let up to 200 guys retire and not replace them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECFD121 View Post
    No, what I'm saying is the City of Cleveland could let up to 200 guys retire and not replace them.
    Ok, thanks for clarifying. I had a chance to read a copy of the old CBA (not sure if negotiations are final for the new CBA), and you are correct about the staffing requirement being 4 persons per apparatus. Considering the amount of fire they see in Cleveland (and East Cleveland in your case), it would seem irresponsible for the City to reduce staffing to 3 per apparatus. But...we aren't talking about being responsible - we're talking about money.

    But this leads to a couple more questions:

    1.) Under SB5 (Issue 2) workers will be allowed to collectively bargain for wages, hours and work conditions. Wouldn't staffing levels for fire suppression and rescue apparatus qualify as "work conditions"? This directly impacts the safety of the firefighters, the safety of the public, as well as the tactics and strategies employed on the fireground. How is this not a "working condition" matter?

    2.) Also, if a new CBA has already been ratified between the union and the City, don't both parties have to honor the contract - regardless of what happens in November with SB5? If SB5 remains law, then any future CBA would fall under the scope of SB5. But if the most recently negotiated CBA mandates 4 persons per apparatus, then the City must honor that through the life of the agreement, right?
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 09-06-2011 at 01:21 PM.

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    To answer your questions Firejawz
    Question 1: You bring up some good points in this question. Cities will definitely attack staffing (even more so than they do now) if Issue 2 passes. But what you stated on what we can bargain for is such a gray area that nobody knows for sure how things will shake out.
    Question 2: All contracts are legally binding for their set amount of time. However under SB5 a city can opt out of the contract if they can prove financial difficulties.

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    Cleveland News Channel 5 just aired a segment this evening on this very subject. A law professor from Cleveland-Marshall Law School explained that SB5 does in fact contain language that expressly prohibits staffing/manning standards as a bargaining topic.

    Even so, I certainly hope that Cleveland doesn't wait until another 200 guys retire before they hire new firefighters. I'm not sure how many guys have left already this year, but my guess is that there is a ways to go before they reach 200 retirements. It doesn't make sense to spend several million dollars on a test only to let the eligibility list lapse before you hire anyone. What a waste!

    I'm going to be optimistic and hold out hope that SB5 will be repealed and that the City will address its staffing issues sooner rather than later.
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 09-06-2011 at 09:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECFD121 View Post
    SB5 will play a part in CFD hiring, if it is passed. Currently CFD's contract calls for 4 man minimum on every apparatus. If SB5 passes, staffing/manning is not a negotiable item any longer. The City of Cleveland has wanted to lower staffing to 3 per apparatus for some time-CFD has always won in the end. If SB5 passes, the City of Cleveland could do so, and that would eliminate at least 200 guys.
    This week I chatted with a union rep for a local fire department about what exactly SB5 says about collective bargaining rights of firefighters with regard to staffing. He confirmed that SB5 does not permit firefighters to bargain over day-to-day staffing or daily on-duty minimums; however, the law still allows unions to negotiate over the total work force. For instance, unions won't be allowed to bargain for 4 FFs per apparatus, but they can still negotiate over the total number of FF personnel on the force. Not sure that makes much sense...but that's how it was explained to me.
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 09-09-2011 at 01:18 PM.

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    Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the unfortunate reality is that Cleveland is not looking to hire, but rather the city plans to reduce the size of the force through attrition. This means that retirement vacancies will remain unfilled until they reach the desired size for the fire department. This could take a few years, which means the current eligibility list will likely expire before the city hires anyone. The currently laid off firefighters will be the only people filling any retirement vacancies for the foreseeable future.

    Just to give you an idea of how tight things are right now...the CBA between the fire department and the city stipulates that when there is a layoff, the city is required to rehire within 30 days a laid off firefighter for each vacancy created by a retiree. So far the city is challenging that provision of the CBA, as no laid off firefighters have been reinstated since July 11 - even though there have been a handful of retirements since that time.

    For those of you who scored well on the exam, I hope you have a plan B or plan C, because it ain't looking good for Cleveland. Its a darn shame too because CFD has a LOT of old firefighters and they're getting older. Someone told me that the youngest person currently on the department is 33 or 34 years old and the average age is nearly 50 years old.
    Last edited by zarack808; 09-19-2011 at 11:02 PM.

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    The bearer of bad news or your own pessimism? I don't think there is anyone in the entire City of Cleveland that can verify with any confidence the things you say (with exception of challenging the union on the CBA).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub2311 View Post
    The bearer of bad news or your own pessimism? I don't think there is anyone in the entire City of Cleveland that can verify with any confidence the things you say (with exception of challenging the union on the CBA).
    unfortunately he is the bearer of bad news. The city is fighting tooth and nail to not bring back laid off guys when someone retires. The union has filed grievance upon grievance to get these guys back, however it's a long drawn out process. Some of these poor guys are on their second and even third layoff. Cleveland maybe a dream for some people to work for but you have to sit back and look at the big picture, it may not be the best place.

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    I believe they are fighting to not bring guys back. Police does not bring guys back until they have 5 or 10 ready to return (forget which it is). Perhaps this is what they are fighting for considering its likely a burden to bring one guy back at a time. If the city wanted more gone, they would have layed more off? I would have to imagine there is a bottom number that FEMA is only going to let them hit considering they are working off of a grant for a number of individuals. Additionally, they were applying for a new hire grant. May is always the magic month that people retire due to vacation benefits, etc... I realize DROP has changed that some, but it still holds significance. I am just suggesting optimistic fodder to displace some of the negative at this point. The real point is that NOBODY knows at this point. Not the chief, not the mayor, not the man on the moon, certainly none of us speculating on a message board.

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    Facts
    • The city has wanted to shrink the Division of Fire for some years, but circumstances (both political and economic) were not conducive to achieving this objective.

    • The Cleveland Fire Department is way too bloated with approximately 850 firefighters serving a population of 395,000. Just to compare, Detroit Fire Department is one of the busiest fire departments in nation (averages 500 structure fires monthly) and has only 1,100 firefighters serving a population of 800,000. It is worth noting that DFD is a combo department which includes 26 medic units; whereas Cleveland Fire has no dedicated EMS units to account for among its 850 members.
    An even better comparison is the Pittsburgh Fire Department, which has just 630 members serving a population of 310,000.

    • A frequent point of contention in previous CBA negotiations has been the number of personnel assigned to fire suppression apparatus. The city wants 3 per apparatus and the Union demanded 4 per apparatus. To date the city has conceded on this issue, but the current political and economic climate has given more bargaining leverage to the city

    • Due to the most recent layoffs, the city has closed the following fire companies: Battalion Chief 1, Eng 2, Eng 17, Eng 33, Truck 42, & Truck 9. These companies have been closed since May and the city argues without any noticeable decrease in service to the community.

    Rumors & Scuttlebutt
    • According to folks connected with the union and other folks connected with the city, administrators feel like the current situation is ideal for shrinking the force. Kasich's gross budget cuts, a rapidly declining population, and increased negative sentiment from the public toward safety forces makes for the best possible scenario to reduce the numbers through attrition.

    • The reason the city declined the first grant to avoid 25 layoffs in June is because there was a condition that the city return the other firefighters on its own dime. The city did not want to be required to rehire the other firefighters. FEMA revamped the grant which allowed the city to reinstate 25 firefighters without being required to rehire the others within a specific time frame

    • The city is not complying with the CBA agreement to fill retirement vacancies with laid off firefighters on a 1-to-1 basis because it wants to save as much money as possible and wait until they can bring back a group all at once. This is a direct violation of the CBA.

    • The city will eventually reinstate all the laid off firefighters, perhaps by the end of 2011. After that, the city will allow the ranks to decrease naturally through DROP attrition. A decent number of guys are expected to leave in 2012, but the next mass exodus is not expected until 2014.

    • The only reasons the city might be interested in hiring a new class before 2014 are: 1.) the city already spent over $3 million paying for the most recent test and recruiting process and they don't want to waste that money; 2.) the CFD is a rapidly aging department and needs new blood ASAP - especially if they intend to take on all EMS duties. The old guys WILL NOT go to paramedic school but new hires can be required to under a new CBA; and 3.) if FEMA extends a new grant to pay for a new class of firefighters.
    Last edited by zarack808; 09-20-2011 at 12:58 PM.

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    Well put, but also none of that has ever been a secret

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    @Cub2311: I realize that the information cited is not ground breaking. I was simply laying out the basis for my previous post. Of course, no one can predict the future with 100% accuracy. But the writing on the wall is certainly not favorable for us CFD hopefuls. I do admire your optimism and I don't intend to douse anyone's positive outlook. Nonetheless, this is a hiring/employment forum that encourages candid discussion of pertinent issues related to our job searches. Just sharing information along with my opinion.
    Last edited by zarack808; 09-20-2011 at 04:51 PM.

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    To look at your fact #2 from a different light, Cleveland has a roughly 30% larger force than Pittsburgh. Cleveland covers roughly 30% more area than Pittsburgh. Their staffing is pretty comparable from that perspective. Pittsburgh is a much better comparison than Detroit, the cities have very similar makeups in many ways. I just think way too bloated is a little harsh of a word to pick for CFD.

    I wonder if a strong candidate emerges to run for mayor in 2013 would have any effect on the re-hirings and new hires. All the gun violence has been unfortunate and sad, and been getting a lot of media attention. A mayor who struggles with safety issues tends to not be mayor for long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromCLE View Post
    To look at your fact #2 from a different light, Cleveland has a roughly 30% larger force than Pittsburgh. Cleveland covers roughly 30% more area than Pittsburgh. Their staffing is pretty comparable from that perspective. Pittsburgh is a much better comparison than Detroit, the cities have very similar makeups in many ways. I just think way too bloated is a little harsh of a word to pick for CFD.

    I wonder if a strong candidate emerges to run for mayor in 2013 would have any effect on the re-hirings and new hires. All the gun violence has been unfortunate and sad, and been getting a lot of media attention. A mayor who struggles with safety issues tends to not be mayor for long.
    You make good points. And I would agree that "way too bloated" is maybe too strong. But speaking objectively, I still think CFD is a bit overstaffed in relation to the population. The current department size was intended for a population of at least 500,000. However, Cleveland has lost more than 20% of its population in the last 12 years. It has the fastest declining population of any major city in the nation.

    You are correct about Cleveland having roughly 30% more land area than Pittsburgh. But on the other hand, much of the area in Cleveland is sparsely populated and contains vacant lots and dilapidated warehouses. As I mentioned in my previous post, CFD has closed over a half-dozen fire companies without experiencing a noticeable deficiency in response times. Although Cleveland is a fairly large city geographically, its population is concentrated in pockets throughout the city. These pockets can be effectively serviced by strategically placed fire companies.

    I agree that an upcoming mayoral campaign might put the focus back on the safety services. The talk around town is that Frank Jackson will not be seeking re-election. So, his absence will result in a wide open field of candidates. As long as SB5 is overturned in November, the police and fire unions will continue to have a lot of political sway with the local politicians. Thus, whoever gets in good with the safety forces will have a better shot at getting elected.
    But here is the problem, the current mayor is in office until January 2014. And if the rumors are true about him not seeking re-elections, Jackson has no incentive to cater to the safety forces. FYI: the current eligibility list expires in January 2013.

    Trust me, I want this job as much as anyone else. This is my dream job and I'm high enough on the list to have a very real chance to get the job if circumstances change. But I also see what's going on around me and the talk I'm hearing from people close to the matter is not encouraging. But who knows! All we can do is stay positive, stay ready, and stay out of trouble!
    Last edited by zarack808; 09-20-2011 at 05:37 PM.

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    This is my first post to this forum but I have been following this thread for some time. Understandably there is concern over whether Cleveland will hire firefighters from the 2010 exam. But while the concern is warranted, the sky is not falling in Cleveland. So try to relax and be patient. The city gave the test because they know they need firefighters to replace the many people leaving due to DROP. The city will hire at some point in the foreseeable future. Someone pointed out that the eligibility list will expire in 2013, and this is true. But the city can very easily request that the civil service department extend the life of the eligibility list for an additional 1 or 2 years.

    Again, this is not a question of if the city will hire, but a question of when. And when the city does hire you can bet it will be from the 2011 eligibility list. The top 100 candidates have already been certified for appointment earlier this year and were being processed for the June Academy Class that was cancelled. Even if the eligibility list expires in 2013 without renewal, the city can still hire firefighters from the list of candidates that were certified for appointment without having to give another test. This means that if you are among this list of candidates, you are virtually guaranteed a job at some point, assuming you don't screw up beforehand.

    It was also mentioned that the city spent in excess of $3 million to give the civil service exam last year. This is true and to the best of my knowledge this dollar figure only represents the money that was paid to the testing company to develop, administer, and grade the exam. Additional monies were budgeted for recruitment efforts, radio & tv advertising, as well as exam preparation courses facilitated by CFD personnel. The city can ill afford to waste that kind of money. Moreover, the city cannot afford to spend an additional $3 million-plus to give another exam. Thus, you can bet that at least one class of cadets will be appointed from the current list. The city planned to utilize federal grant money for the new hires and is currently utilizing grant money to pay for the reinstated firefighters. Common sense tells me that whenever the city goes forward with a class, it will seek grant money again.

    Everybody relax. Things will get moving soon enough.
    Last edited by GJ_NEOhio; 09-21-2011 at 02:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GJ_NEOhio View Post
    This is my first post to this forum but I have been following this thread for some time. Understandably there is concern over whether Cleveland will hire firefighters from the 2010 exam. But while the concern is warranted, the sky is not falling in Cleveland. So try to relax and be patient. The city gave the test because they know they need firefighters to replace the many people leaving due to DROP. The city will hire at some point in the foreseeable future. Someone pointed out that the eligibility list will expire in 2013, and this is true. But the city can very easily request that the civil service department extend the life of the eligibility list for an additional 1 or 2 years.

    Again, this is not a question of if the city will hire, but a question of when. And when the city does hire you can bet it will be from the 2011 eligibility list. The top 100 candidates have already been certified for appointment earlier this year and were being processed for the June Academy Class that was cancelled. Even if the eligibility list expires in 2013 without renewal, the city can still hire firefighters from the list of candidates that were certified for appointment without having to give another test. This means that if you are among this list of candidates, you are virtually guaranteed a job at some point, assuming you don't screw up beforehand.

    It was also mentioned that the city spent in excess of $3 million to give the civil service exam last year. This is true and to the best of my knowledge this dollar figure only represents the money that was paid to the testing company to develop, administer, and grade the exam. Additional monies were budgeted for recruitment efforts, radio & tv advertising, as well as exam preparation courses facilitated by CFD personnel. The city can ill afford to waste that kind of money. Moreover, the city cannot afford to spend an additional $3 million-plus to give another exam. Thus, you can bet that at least one class of cadets will be appointed from the current list. The city planned to utilize federal grant money for the new hires and is currently utilizing grant money to pay for the reinstated firefighters. Common sense tells me that whenever the city goes forward with a class, it will seek grant money again.

    Everybody relax. Things will get moving soon enough.
    GJ we are talking about Cleveland you know? Everything you said is very logical, but it's Cleveland they do things backwards.

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    Cleveland...hiring firefighters?? LMAO! The damn city has turned into a war zone this summer and Jackson hasn't made a peep about reloading the police department. We're talking about 9 or 10 shootings this month already, several in broad daylight. I think there were even a couple of failed child abduction attempts recently too, again in broad daylight. But Jackson has not indicated that he wants to rehire police officers or bolster law enforcement presence in the streets. If the police department is being ignored right now, then you can certainly forget about the fire department.

    Cleveland neighborhoods are gone to crap - even the decent ones are experiencing inexplicable and reckless violence. IMHO, the city is already beyond the point of redemption and is simply circling the drain. Whatever remaining stable tax base in Cleveland will move out, thus resulting in even an even smaller population and less tax dollars to fund safety services. This means more violence, arson, and medical emergencies (from the violence & drugs), but not nearly enough police and fire to handle it. In other words, Cleveland is about 5 to 7 years from becoming East Cleveland.

    Forget worrying about getting hired by the fire department. If you currently live in Cleveland, your main concern should be on how fast you can get the heck out of that black hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREJAWZ View Post
    Cleveland...hiring firefighters?? LMAO! The damn city has turned into a war zone this summer and Jackson hasn't made a peep about reloading the police department. We're talking about 9 or 10 shootings this month already, several in broad daylight. I think there were even a couple of failed child abduction attempts recently too, again in broad daylight. But Jackson has not indicated that he wants to rehire police officers or bolster law enforcement presence in the streets. If the police department is being ignored right now, then you can certainly forget about the fire department.

    Cleveland neighborhoods are gone to crap - even the decent ones are experiencing inexplicable and reckless violence. IMHO, the city is already beyond the point of redemption and is simply circling the drain. Whatever remaining stable tax base in Cleveland will move out, thus resulting in even an even smaller population and less tax dollars to fund safety services. This means more violence, arson, and medical emergencies (from the violence & drugs), but not nearly enough police and fire to handle it. In other words, Cleveland is about 5 to 7 years from becoming East Cleveland.

    Forget worrying about getting hired by the fire department. If you currently live in Cleveland, your main concern should be on how fast you can get the heck out of that black hole.
    hit the nail on the head.

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    Its funny to watch some of the attitudes in this thread do a 180 since last spring.

    Cleveland will hire firefighters; there is still a service to provide and runs aren't getting any lighter, not to mention the age of the department. Obviously at this point no one knows anything for sure, but imo at least one class will be off this list even if they have to issue conditional employment letters like they did for the class that got hired 10 yrs after their exam. Like mentioned before, the city won't want to let a list go to waste.

    It seems like some of you should stick to testing for the cushy suburbs. Lets not forget we are on an urban fire department eligibility list. These problems aren't anything new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdd2121 View Post
    Its funny to watch some of the attitudes in this thread do a 180 since last spring.

    Cleveland will hire firefighters; there is still a service to provide and runs aren't getting any lighter, not to mention the age of the department. Obviously at this point no one knows anything for sure, but imo at least one class will be off this list even if they have to issue conditional employment letters like they did for the class that got hired 10 yrs after their exam. Like mentioned before, the city won't want to let a list go to waste.

    It seems like some of you should stick to testing for the cushy suburbs. Lets not forget we are on an urban fire department eligibility list. These problems aren't anything new.
    yeah cushy suburbs where you deal with semi decent individuals, better equipment, and get paid far more. Not to mention depending on where you are probably less chance of getting laid off. But oh no you have that allure of a big city deparment fighting fire all day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OHFirestopper View Post
    yeah cushy suburbs where you deal with semi decent individuals, better equipment, and get paid far more. Not to mention depending on where you are probably less chance of getting laid off. But oh no you have that allure of a big city deparment fighting fire all day!
    I guess that depends on what kind of firefighter you want to be and what each individual is looking for in the fire service then, right?
    Last edited by mdd2121; 09-23-2011 at 04:49 PM.

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    I can't imagine anybody getting hired anytime soon either. I live in the city and it is a dump. The residents are on their own. Mayor Jackson doesn't about public safety. Just watch the news. Everyday there are murders, rapes and fires. Lots of them and cops and firefighters are still laid off. I love this city and love living downtown but it is nasty! Just my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdd2121 View Post
    I guess that depends on what kind of firefighter you want to be and what each individual is looking for in the fire service then, right?
    Sure, fighting fires in vacant boarded up homes that some thug firebombed because he was bored and dealing with nasty low life people all day. I don't think it depends on what kind of firefighter you want to be it depends on whether or not you have any common sense to not want to do deal with that stuff or not

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