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Thread: Cleveland Fire Dept., Fire exam, July 31st, 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    http://http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/214171/45/Cleveland-firefighters-EMS-to-merge

    here is some news....

    who knows what it will actually mean for you'all
    Two possibilities:

    1.) A merger between EMS and Fire means that more firefighter personnel will have to be ALS trained; however, I don't expect that most veteran firefighters will want to go through paramedic school. Alternatively, it would be easier to bring on a new class of firefighters and train them as paramedics.

    OR

    2.) EMS personnel will be cross-trained as firefighters and placed strategically throughout the city's fire stations to ensure that each responding apparatus has at least one ALS responder. This approach would eliminate the need to hire new firefighters because the city would be able to add 250 firefighters without increasing the overall staffing numbers. One potential problem with this strategy is that all hell would break loose if the city cross trained EMS personnel without requiring them to take and pass the firefighter civil service test like the rest of us. Lawsuits out the ying yang!
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 11-08-2011 at 10:17 PM.

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    Dude, we're screwed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    http://http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/214171/45/Cleveland-firefighters-EMS-to-merge

    here is some news....

    who knows what it will actually mean for you'all
    This is what it means:

    EMS members will be grandfathered in as firefighters. Those who don't already have their firefighter 240 will have the option to go through Cleveland's fire academy. The others who would prefer not to fight fires are free to remain as strictly EMS personnel. Similarly, Cleveland firefighters will have the option to get their paramedic card. Many fire stations will be reconverted to "combo" stations, housing both ambulance and fire apparatus. Personnel will likely rotate between the box and the engine/truck each shift based on certs and seniority. The integration will be implemented and functional by the end of 2012. By cross-training a few dozen EMS personnel in 2012, there will be no need to hire new firefighters for the foreseeable future. Also, there are approximately 20 CFD members currently laid off...and they won't be reinstated until the latter part of 2013. Maybe then the city might consider hiring new firefighters. All new firefighters will be required to get paramedic certs within 2 years of employment or get the boot. This is all fact. Its time to shut down this thread. Good luck to everyone on your future endeavors.
    Last edited by GJ_NEOhio; 11-09-2011 at 08:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GJ_NEOhio View Post
    This is what it means:

    EMS members will be grandfathered in as firefighters. Those who don't already have their firefighter 240 will have the option to go through Cleveland's fire academy. The others who would prefer not to fight fires are free to remain as strictly EMS personnel. Similarly, Cleveland firefighters will have the option to get their paramedic card. Many fire stations will be reconverted to "combo" stations, housing both ambulance and fire apparatus. Personnel will likely rotate between the box and the engine/truck each shift based on certs and seniority. The integration will be implemented and functional by the end of 2012. By cross-training a few dozen EMS personnel in 2012, there will be no need to hire new firefighters for the foreseeable future. Also, there are approximately 20 CFD members currently laid off...and they won't be reinstated until the latter part of 2013. Maybe then the city might consider hiring new firefighters. All new firefighters will be required to get paramedic certs within 2 years of employment or get the boot. This is all fact. Its time to shut down this thread. Good luck to everyone on your future endeavors.
    Watching the mayor's conference (announcing both the merger of fire & EMS and the retirement of Chief Stubbs), it appears that there is no definitive answer as to what Cleveland Fire/EMS will look like whenever the merger is complete. It could (and should) work just as you described it BUT, as anyone who has worked in and endured the oftentimes senseless bureaucracy of a big city knows that common sense and rational ways of doing things often gets tossed to the side due to politics and power struggles.

    This COULD end up as nothing more than Cleveland EMS wearing the same uniform as the firefighters, getting the yellow ambulances repainted red, and EMS essentially being a separate part of the fire department (i.e. it's own career path, single-role EMS people who are not firefighters, and etc.) OR it could be a fully-integrated organization where both the firefighters and EMS folks get cross-trained and EMS is embraced and accepted after the "growing pains" of blending two different cultures.

    Regarding hiring in Cleveland right now, I doubt they do much for the foreseeable future solely based on the current and interim bosses not knowing what the needs will be. But then again, why lets common sense get in the way?
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 11-10-2011 at 06:57 AM.
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    So much for hiring new FF's. The addition of Cleveland EMS is exactly the thing the city needed to do, but it's too bad they couldn't afford to bring in some new blood. Hang in there gents. Maybe next time? In other news, I see Brooklyn FD is having a test. If you're a medic, it's worth a shot. Sheez.

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    And still more interesting developments with Cleveland Fire...
    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...d_to_rein.html


    A judge just ordered the city to reinstate 6 laid off firefighters to fill vacancies created by recent retirements in accordance with the union contract and Ohio law. The firefighters union contract requires the city to call back laid off firefighters as vacancies occur from retirement or other attrition. It seems that the city intentionally left at least 6 vacancies unfilled since July, in violation of the CBA. The fire union sued to enforce the contract and prevailed - at least for now. According to the judge's order, all 6 vacancies must be filled immediately and all future vacancies should be filled as they occur.

    How bold and arrogant must the city be to blatantly defy a contractual obligation that is also backed by Ohio law? Ohio Revised Code 124.37 states that in the case of a layoff, employees are to be hired back on a one for one basis. Meaning...when one guy leaves the job, you bring back the next person on the laid off list.

    Who knows...maybe this ruling has the potential of impacting how soon the city hires new firefighters. Under the current CBA, the city is prohibited from hiring a new class of firefighters while there are members on laid off status. Obviously, Cleveland was attempting to delay reinstatement of the guys on layoff for as long as possible. If this ruling stands, 6 guys will be returning next week and the remaining 14 firefighters will be back on the job by the beginning of Spring '12.
    Last edited by zarack808; 11-12-2011 at 01:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zarack808 View Post
    Who knows...
    I think that sums it up all around.

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    Some info, not real positive: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...nce_merge.html

    This article sure makes it seem like the Browns and Steelers are combining rosters, or the Yankees/Red Sox. Is it really that hard to get along at least professionally? Or is this an outsider attempt to stir up a misconception and make it into something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromCLE View Post
    Some info, not real positive: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...nce_merge.html

    This article sure makes it seem like the Browns and Steelers are combining rosters, or the Yankees/Red Sox. Is it really that hard to get along at least professionally? Or is this an outsider attempt to stir up a misconception and make it into something?
    Unfortunately, the concerns cited in the article are real. The issues of race and gender have come up many times over the years; and as the article points out, these topics dominated the conversation during a recent meeting between Public Safety and City Council.

    And apparently, that was just the tip of the iceberg. Other recent stories on the Cleveland Fire Department suggest that the wheels are coming off altoghter...

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...s_paid_fo.html

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...eady_to_p.html
    Last edited by zarack808; 11-22-2011 at 01:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zarack808 View Post
    Unfortunately, the concerns cited in the article are real. The issues of race and gender have come up many times over the years; and as the article points out, these topics dominated the conversation during a recent meeting between Public Safety and City Council.

    And apparently, that was just the tip of the iceberg. Other recent stories on the Cleveland Fire Department suggest that the wheels are coming off altoghter...

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...s_paid_fo.html

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...eady_to_p.html
    IF a "silver lining" exists in all of this, it can be summarized with the following:

    A new Fire Chief means some changes will take place. This may involve personnel changes, "redefining" how the fire department does business, rules and regs changes, and etc. That alone will cause people to retire. People are resistant to change.

    As a side note to the above, depending on how "independent" the new Fire Chief is (regardless if came from within or outside), City Hall may be, in reality, the actual "chief". The result is that some career politician's plan for intergalactic domination will be nearly complete.

    EMS merging into Fire will upset many folks' (on both sides) apple carts. That will cause people to leave.

    If the media's reports of unethical and/or illegal practices are occurring within the CFD's ranks, there will be some people who leave because of that. I say "if" because, believe it or not, the media loves to sensationalize issues and create drama where none exists.

    The bottom line is this: Now is likely the best time ever to be in Cleveland (or any other FD's hiring process). Why? I'll tell you why...

    All of the above-listed "drama" is the same across the board. The reason it is commonplace is because city "leaders", nationwide, have figured out that if they can get the old-timers to leave (i.e. highest paid FD personnel), they can replace them with youngin's who will work for peanuts - literally. Although the more tenured members will replace the aging command staff of an organization, the city can save money on the front-end by paying rookies far less money, providing them with virtually non-existent benefits, and then focusing on how to get the next wave of old-timers to leave so all of those who enjoyed a fair wage, decent benefits, and etc. are merely a distant memory.

    I am glad that I had the opportunity to be a part of the fire service when all efforts focused on being the best firefighter you could possibly be. The bean counters have just about defeated the drive of anyone who has a passion for the fire service. They will not stop until they've squeezed every penny out of firefighter they can and our "give a $#%&" factor is somewhere right above that of a mom & pop used car lot operating in the parking lot of a bankrupt gas station.

    Back to my point... FDs will be hiring waves of people in the near future. Ride the wave if you fit the political agenda (and not necessarily "qualifications").
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 11-22-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    IF a "silver lining" exists in all of this, it can be summarized with the following:

    A new Fire Chief means some changes will take place. This may involve personnel changes, "redefining" how the fire department does business, rules and regs changes, and etc. That alone will cause people to retire. People are resistant to change.

    As a side note to the above, depending on how "independent" the new Fire Chief is (regardless if came from within or outside), City Hall may be, in reality, the actual "chief". The result is that some career politician's plan for intergalactic domination will be nearly complete.

    EMS merging into Fire will upset many folks' (on both sides) apple carts. That will cause people to leave.

    If the media's reports of unethical and/or illegal practices are occurring within the CFD's ranks, there will be some people who leave because of that. I say "if" because, believe it or not, the media loves to sensationalize issues and create drama where none exists.

    The bottom line is this: Now is likely the best time ever to be in Cleveland (or any other FD's hiring process). Why? I'll tell you why...

    All of the above-listed "drama" is the same across the board. The reason it is commonplace is because city "leaders", nationwide, have figured out that if they can get the old-timers to leave (i.e. highest paid FD personnel), they can replace them with youngin's who will work for peanuts - literally. Although the more tenured members will replace the aging command staff of an organization, the city can save money on the front-end by paying rookies far less money, providing them with virtually non-existent benefits, and then focusing on how to get the next wave of old-timers to leave so all of those who enjoyed a fair wage, decent benefits, and etc. are merely a distant memory.

    I am glad that I had the opportunity to be a part of the fire service when all efforts focused on being the best firefighter you could possibly be. The bean counters have just about defeated the drive of anyone who has a passion for the fire service. They will not stop until they've squeezed every penny out of firefighter they can and our "give a $#%&" factor is somewhere right above that of a mom & pop used car lot operating in the parking lot of a bankrupt gas station.

    Back to my point... FDs will be hiring waves of people in the near future. Ride the wave if you fit the political agenda (and not necessarily "qualifications").
    @DFW: i appreciate your input and perspective. What you say makes a lot of sense. But the thing is, in this town...the most reasonable course of action is likely to be the least probable course of action. We'll see though.

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    Default Scandal at Cleveland Fire

    What on earth is going on in Cleveland? CFD is being hammered right now by the media in some scandal concerning firefighters allegedly reporting to work only 6 or 7 shifts a year and still getting paid full salary. One Cleveland firefighter is said to be living in San Diego 5 or 6 months at a time and then cramming in 18 or 19 shifts back to back. And still several other firefighters are alleged to have traded dozens of shifts without having paid back the trades. There's talk of a criminal investigation and perhaps prosecution of firefighters and possibly bosses.

    Every time I turn around, something bad is happening with CFD. First it was the layoffs, then fire academy was cancelled, next it was this so-called merger with EMS that is destined to be effed up, and now this scandal.

    Cleveland, why can't you guys seem to get it together??? Jeez!!
    Last edited by maverick80; 12-09-2011 at 05:58 PM.

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    forget about cleveland and get on with your life. If you sit around waiting on them you'll be too old to get hired. there are plenty other places testing and hiring.

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    I pretty much accepted the fact of not being hired on with Cfd , just curious though if they will extend list certification or just let it die out in July, stay short staffed until the merger than wait for all them to retire and retest

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF0055 View Post
    I pretty much accepted the fact of not being hired on with Cfd , just curious though if they will extend list certification or just let it die out in July, stay short staffed until the merger than wait for all them to retire and retest
    As has been stated already, its time to move on from CFD. The City Administration has absolutely no interest in hiring right now. This, despite the obvious fact that the inflated overtime payouts the mayor complains about are directly due to understaffing. Cross-training EMS personnel does not in any way change the fact that CFD will be understaffed. The City, for whatever reason, prefers not to follow logic - which would be to hire at least one or two classes of entry level firefighters and require them to become ALS providers. This would all but eliminate overtime problems, ensure that all companies/apparatus are staffed adequately, and provide the City with additional trained paramedics.

    Anyway, enough with my ranting. Move on from Cleveland. If the media attention on CFD has revealed anything, it's that the City is clueless and incompetent. The more I see from this City, the less I'm convinced that it would be a good place to work even if they did decide to hire from this list.
    Last edited by zarack808; 12-14-2011 at 02:19 PM.

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    The magic number for Cleveland Fire is 785. That number represents the minimum level for personnel or total staffing of firefighters under the current budget. CFD's current staffing total is approx 790 firefighters, with several leaving every month. There are also 24 firefighters on lay off. The City won't start calling back those guys until attrition brings the number under 785. At that time, the City will continue to bring them back at a rate to maintain the 785 level. Based on projected DROP attrition for 2012, all laid off firefighters will be recalled to duty by mid to late summer.

    CFD anticipates another significant wave of DROP retirements beginning late 2012 through 2013. In order to maintain compliance with minimum staffing levels, CFD will have to call up at least one class of new hires by 2013 at the latest (i'm projecting late spring to mid summer). The one variable in this equation is $$$. Frank Jackson is notoriously tight with spending and will sacrifice public safety jobs in a heartbeat in order to balance the budget.

    Another thing...the Headen Consent Decree (affirmative action hiring quota) has reared its head again. Prior to the last exam in 2010, Federal Judge Nugent decided to end the Headen Decree, which ended the City's mandate to hire 1 black candidate for every 3 white candidates hired. Well, the 6th Circuit Appeals Court reversed Judge Nugent's decision and ordered that the Headen Decree be re-evaluated to determine if in fact the stated goals and guidelines of the decree have been satisfactorily met. If the District court finds that Decree should remain in effect, then this could have a substantial impact on how and when the City will hire from the list. Stay tuned...
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 03-08-2012 at 09:40 PM.

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    HAHA the city doesn't know what it's doing tomorrow let alone 2013.

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    Looks like the arbitrator ruled in favor of the city in regards to lowering manpower and keeping the closed companies closed. I think this magic number the city wanted was 785 or so. Staffing is one below that and the city should be processing one layoff call back and going 1 for 1 from here on out. If i remember correct this leave 23 laid off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdd2121 View Post
    Looks like the arbitrator ruled in favor of the city in regards to lowering manpower and keeping the closed companies closed. I think this magic number the city wanted was 785 or so. Staffing is one below that and the city should be processing one layoff call back and going 1 for 1 from here on out. If i remember correct this leave 23 laid off.
    You are correct, the arbitrator ruled in favor of the city on the staffing issue. And yes, the city's budget is for 785 firefighters. Although the city won the arbitration, there is still a related matter in the courts pending a ruling from the judge. We'll see how that shakes out.

    I, too, heard that the fire department is now calling back firefighters on a 1 for 1 basis going forward. But the call backs could be accelerated if FEMA awards a 2011 SAFER grant to the city (which the city applied for recently). Even if the grant is awarded and those 23 laid off firefighters are called back early, it probably won't matter for us on the eligibility list. I don't expect any hiring from the list until probably 2013.

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    Any updates on if the laid off firefighters have been recalled yet? And what's the status on new hires? I remember when I took the exam there was all this talk about 70 - 100 guys having to retire due to the DROP program. Whatever happened with that? Now it seems like that was a bunch of baloney.

    I just read on the Cleveland firefighter's union website that some of these guys have been laid off 3 times already since 2007!! Are you kidding me? As exciting as it would be to become a member of CFD, it would be playing Russian Roullette with your profesional and financial livelihood. I heard Chief Stubbs is retiring next month. Perhaps new leadership will help stabilize things with this department. Who knows??
    Last edited by zarack808; 03-26-2012 at 02:37 PM.

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    Paul Stubbs officially retired as Cleveland Fire Chief more than a week ago. To my knowledge, mayor Jackson has not named a replacement or interim chief. Does anyone know who the acting chief is or who will be the new fire chief?

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    they want to combine the dept with ems, have an entirely new dept, new charter rules, eliminate the civil service test, and have the current ems chief run the dept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsmith1989 View Post
    they want to combine the dept with ems, have an entirely new dept, new charter rules, eliminate the civil service test, and have the current ems chief run the dept.
    Everyone is already aware of the plans to merge fire with ems; but where did you get your info about eliminating the civil service test and initiating new charter rules (which requires consent from the mayor, city council, and most importantly - fundamental changes within the department have to be collectively bargained for by the fire union and ems union)?

    Also, I highly doubt that former EMS Commissioner Eckart will be appointed as the fire chief for two reasons: 1) he's retired from civil service duty and has already been appointed as the Asst Director of Public Safety; and 2) former Asst Fire Chief Tim O'Toole was just sworn in today as the Interim Fire Chief. If mayor Jackson wanted Eckart to be Chief, he could have done so instead of promoting O'Toole (who is very respected among the CFD rank and file).

    So, I guess i'm asking you to elaborate on your previous assertions.

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    talking w/ current cfd guys.

    this whole audit thing, is a huge political move. they are doing this stuff now, to show how 'inept' the fire dept is to the public, so when voting time comes around in nov, they can vote the merger together w/ new leadership.

    also, with the merger, since cfd is civil service and ems is not, they are having an entirely new dept. thus dont need to conform to the charter rules to maintain civil service staffing. they want to elimanate the test b/c ppl* cannot pass the test.

    they also want to put in new leadership. with the merger they can hire whoever they want to be chief, currently cfd promotes from within, and the next chief is from the asst chiefs i believe. with the new merger, & entirely new dept, they dont have to do that. they can APPOINT whoever they want, (i.e. some one from cali, or ny, etc). appoint is the key word. (city picks who they want).

    there have been roughly six audits from 05/06, and the f.d. told the city about the need for better time clocking, pushed off and pushed off til now, where the city and news can hang the f.d. out to dry, make them look like idiots, vote on new dept, new rules, new leadership, eliminate civil service test, hire who they want, promote who they want. big political move is what this is about.

    listen to some guys on the dept if you can.
    also expect big retirements, b/c the old time guys dont want to deal with this stuff. instead of full 8 years of drop people are leaving after 5/6/7....etc. b/c of politics

    also look into how the city implemented +5 bonus points on the next promotion exam for residents who live in the city. big factor for future and current candidates/employees.
    this was voted on by the residents of the city in the most recent election.
    gotta live within the city for bonus points on the initial test, promotion exams etc.....

    interesting stuff, dont hold your breath tho.
    have a good one yall

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    Plain and simple...it's amateur hour in the city of Cleveland and its Division of Fire. Granted, every department has its issues, but Cleveland Fire is a laughing stock among major municipalities.

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