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Thread: Cleveland Fire Dept., Fire exam, July 31st, 2010

  1. #51
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    Honestman -
    I can relate to your frustration and even exasperation at times; especially when dealing with the city of Cleveland. But the process is beginning to move along now. Just try to relax and make sure that you are adequately prepared for each phase of the testing & hiring process.
    I, too, have spoken with a couple of individuals "in the know", and I've been told that the city is still planning to bring in a decent size class for FTA in the early part of 2011. Not sure how many, as the exact number is contigent upon the DROP attrition in January.

    As for a lawsuit challenging the preference points awarded to graduates of the Cleveland Schools MLK Firefighter Program, I have not heard anything definitive. I am aware that the preference points were initially challenged prior to the exam. But to the best of my knowledge, those preference points are still in effect. The city argues that it has a legitimate interest in providing a pipeline for gainful employment for its own students. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it either way. I am fairly certain that not very many students in this program sat for the test.

    On the other hand, the city is still in unresolved litigation with the Vanguards over the enforcement of the controversial Headen Decree (an affirmative action decree from the 1980s). The Headen Decree has technically expired, but the Vanguards sought to have the policy extended through this eligibility list. To my knowledge, the matter is still unresolved. Although I don't think it will slow down the hiring process at all.

    You say only 600-800 people passed the written exam out of 2,600 applicants? If you don't mind me asking, how credible is your source of info? Assuming you are correct, of the ~700 remaining applicants, I anticipate that less than half will max out on the available points from the CPAT (contact Cleve Civil Sevice for details on how CPAT will be scored and administered). After aggregating the CPAT and written exam scores, that leaves roughly 350 applicants within contention. Criminal background checks and medical histories will flush out another group of applicants. According to my scientifically wild @ss guess, only about 225 applicants will reasonably contend for appointment (this will include both Cleveland residents and non-residents). Not bad odds when considering that Cleveland anticipates hiring ~150 firefighters over the next couple of years.
    Last edited by zarack808; 10-27-2010 at 10:29 PM.

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    how is the cpat going to be scored? pass or fail? ive heard several different ways

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    To Zarack808 and toddrat1:
    My source is good about the people that passed. The PAT test is a definate pass/fail and will be added to your written score. How they'll do that I don't know? So no written score will be given just an overall score of written/agility. I guess we will all have to see about the actual final scores of all involved. I know a guy who tested in 1998 and scored in the mid 90's and had 10 residency points added to his final score and was still on the bottom of the list. So those points now are pretty crucial. I went to the Don McNea fire school and overheard a guy saying he had 15 points coming to him, 10 for the residency and 5 for military. So you guys/gals do the math. By the way, Don McNea fire school was fantastic!! I can't say enough about Chief Collins and his teaching. If your reading this Chief...Thank you!! If anyone wants to add to the thread please go ahead. Thanks to all!!

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    I served my country for seven years with three combat deployments. I hold an EMT-b and 240 card. How is it that people with zero life experiences recieve more points (10 resident 5 MLK) have a better chance then a decorated combat vet? Any imput would be appreciated.
    Last edited by kzavodny; 10-28-2010 at 05:54 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by kzavodny View Post
    I served my country for seven years with three combat deployments. I hold an EMT-b and 240 card. How is it that people with zero life experiences recieve more points (10 resident 5 MLK) have a better chance then a decorated combat vet? Any imput would be appreciated.
    They don't receive more points, there were 5 veteran extra points available if you provided your DD214 at time of application. So you would receive the same amount of points total, if you were a resident of the city. The city will give you EMT-B training anyways, and it was my understanding the MLK program graduates would have FF2 certification to receive the credit also. And the resident credit probably discourages hundreds (or more) of out of towners (some veterans also) from taking the test and further reducing any chance you may have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromCLE View Post
    They don't receive more points, there were 5 veteran extra points available if you provided your DD214 at time of application. So you would receive the same amount of points total, if you were a resident of the city. The city will give you EMT-B training anyways, and it was my understanding the MLK program graduates would have FF2 certification to receive the credit also. And the resident credit probably discourages hundreds (or more) of out of towners (some veterans also) from taking the test and further reducing any chance you may have.
    I did get my five. I like in the city of brooklyn though, so no 10pts. Wouldn't it be an EO issue if MLK gets 5 and people that have there 240 card don't? Thanks for your reply.

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    The issue at hand is Vets should atleast get just as many points as residents with a max of 15. I know it would take another vet to see my point. I wrote a blank check to the USA putting my life on the line for out freedom (yes I am combat arms), but to have a guy/girl with no life experience get 10 points and a better chance then a vet..

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    Quote Originally Posted by kzavodny View Post
    The issue at hand is Vets should atleast get just as many points as residents with a max of 15. I know it would take another vet to see my point. I wrote a blank check to the USA putting my life on the line for out freedom (yes I am combat arms), but to have a guy/girl with no life experience get 10 points and a better chance then a vet..
    I'm not disputing that, I got the 5 vet points too . But I see your issue is with the residency credit more than the MLK class credit. Some cities give a lot of residency credit, some a little, some none. I have a 4 year degree, and it gives me no advantage over another applicant with a HS diploma or GED, on paper, for this test. Some tests it gives me a huge advantage. I guess just find a test that matches its extra credit best to your situation, or move to Cleveland and wait for the next test are two of the best options. I doubt the resident credit would disappear any time soon...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromCLE View Post
    I'm not disputing that, I got the 5 vet points too . But I see your issue is with the residency credit more than the MLK class credit. Some cities give a lot of residency credit, some a little, some none. I have a 4 year degree, and it gives me no advantage over another applicant with a HS diploma or GED, on paper, for this test. Some tests it gives me a huge advantage. I guess just find a test that matches its extra credit best to your situation, or move to Cleveland and wait for the next test are two of the best options. I doubt the resident credit would disappear any time soon...
    I hope that MLK class gets thrown out. Or if it doesnt there will be an uproar from the 240 card holders. Big EO issue

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    I know that only those who passed the written exam are invited to take the physical ability test, which is being held throughout November. Does anyone know if your date for the PAT correlates with your rank on the written exam? For example, do those with the highest scores on the written take their PAT first while those with lower scores take the PAT later in the month?
    Last edited by zarack808; 10-31-2010 at 06:38 PM.

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    i doubt it. i would say it goes with your seat number. plus all the extra credit will come into play after the pat. it sucks the pat is only pass/fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zarack808 View Post
    I know that only those who passed the written exam are invited to take the physical ability test, which is being held throughout November. Does anyone know if your date for the PAT correlates with your rank on the written exam? For example, do those with the highest scores on the written take their PAT first while those with lower scores take the PAT later in the month?
    I think it is alphabetical order. Dont quote me on it. Some friends with A last names have taken it and a friend with a C last name takes it tomarrow. My last name starts with a Z and i take mine the first week of December. Not by seat number because my friend next to me has his tomarrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by kzavodny View Post
    I think it is alphabetical order. Dont quote me on it. Some friends with A last names have taken it and a friend with a C last name takes it tomarrow. My last name starts with a Z and i take mine the first week of December. Not by seat number because my friend next to me has his tomarrow
    Alphabetical order makes sense. Have you received any feedback on the PAT from your friends that have already taken it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zarack808 View Post
    Alphabetical order makes sense. Have you received any feedback on the PAT from your friends that have already taken it?
    sent a private message. hope it helps by the way, when is your test?
    Last edited by kzavodny; 10-31-2010 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kzavodny View Post
    I think it is alphabetical order. Dont quote me on it. Some friends with A last names have taken it and a friend with a C last name takes it tomarrow. My last name starts with a Z and i take mine the first week of December. Not by seat number because my friend next to me has his tomarrow

    Thanks for the info. Replied to your private message. My test is Nov. 8th.

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    I've heard that about 600 people passed the written as well. Thats a pretty low number considering how many they need to repace in the next couple years. Also, the amount of people that will be left after the PAT, background, and polygraphs. I think anyone who makes it to the end has an excellent chance at getting on. Prior the 600 being talked about is closely accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_medic50 View Post
    I've heard that about 600 people passed the written as well. Thats a pretty low number considering how many they need to repace in the next couple years. Also, the amount of people that will be left after the PAT, background, and polygraphs. I think anyone who makes it to the end has an excellent chance at getting on. Prior the 600 being talked about is closely accurate.
    I dont believe there is a polygraph, but more people will fail the psych then the background. 600 seems like a really low number. That would mean they are only testing 20 per day for the PAT. I have yet to talk to anybody I know or people that they know who didn't pass the written.

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    yeah I have yet to hear anything very accurate from anyone other than it coming straight from cleveland. Im very excited for all the PAT's to be complete and see where I stand on the list.

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    All right everyone I was completely wrong about what I said earlier. I am really sorry. I found out exactly how many passed and that was CONFIRMED at 1700. They are starting the agiliy testing now and its is in alphabetical order. I did mine the other night and passed...easily! Im not trying to boast about it but it was pretty easy. The hose drag is not a real firemans hose and they read instructions to you before each timed event. So that gives you plenty of time to catch your breath. If anyoone is reading this I am going to just say the truth, they made this easy for certain reasons. However, I did see people afterwards that were really breathing heavy and that struggled through it. Although I am realistic about getting a position (because I don't have residency) I'm not going to give out any details of the events. Just be smart, it's easy. Let me know......Thanks

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    Well thats quite a bunch of people. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see a whole lot of people that looked in terrible shape. Guessing 1500 out of the 1700 will pass the PAT, I think the psych will weed out a lot of people though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kzavodny View Post
    Well thats quite a bunch of people. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see a whole lot of people that looked in terrible shape. Guessing 1500 out of the 1700 will pass the PAT, I think the psych will weed out a lot of people though.
    Hey kzavodny, you commented a couple of times that the psych will weed out a lot of people, even more so than the background checks. I find that interesting. Considering that this is Cleveland, I would expect background issues to be a major roadblock for many applicants. What is it about the psych interview that is so problematic? Have you or anyone else had any experience with these type of psych interviews?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleCandidate1 View Post
    CFDWARRIOR: I don't believe this posting is very becoming of a CURRENT FIREFIGHTER, obviously you ARE NOT A BONAFIDE CLEVELAND RESIDENT...your statement, I quote" You must realize that many of the "residents" won't score high enough even with the extra points". I'm sure with you representing the CFD, you should retract that biased statement, however, I AM A BONAFIDE RESIDENT AND scored high enough, I'm sure there WERE plenty more "residents" that did aswell. You're inside "scoop" was very condescending. Glad your info isn't on here or I'd surely report you.
    FemaleCandidate1,
    You must have been privy to something that all of us malecandiate1's were not. You state that you DID score high enough. Well, how the hell do you know this when the letter that the commission sent out said that the score are not yet being released? Please advise, thanks ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleCandidate1 View Post
    CFDWARRIOR: I don't believe this posting is very becoming of a CURRENT FIREFIGHTER, obviously you ARE NOT A BONAFIDE CLEVELAND RESIDENT...your statement, I quote" You must realize that many of the "residents" won't score high enough even with the extra points". I'm sure with you representing the CFD, you should retract that biased statement, however, I AM A BONAFIDE RESIDENT AND scored high enough, I'm sure there WERE plenty more "residents" that did aswell. You're inside "scoop" was very condescending. Glad your info isn't on here or I'd surely report you.

    FemaleCandidate1...Dont ever forget that there is absolutely nothing in this world more wrong than a "rat!" remember that, it will serve you well! I pray that you do not get hired, as a respectful brotherhood is free of rats

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    Quote Originally Posted by kzavodny View Post
    I served my country for seven years with three combat deployments. I hold an EMT-b and 240 card. How is it that people with zero life experiences recieve more points (10 resident 5 MLK) have a better chance then a decorated combat vet? Any imput would be appreciated.
    Kzavondy, you could not have presented a more perfectly fitting question. The civil service commission is designed to meet quotas. There is no need to further explain that statement as you all know what it means. Even though the system is flawed and sucks, fight through it and prove them wrong. Hoorah~!

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    As for the number of PAT takers, I am uncertain as well. I will say that I took mine last week and was slated at 1600. I was not in the testing room until 1900. The Chief running the show that day stated that the guy before me was the 15th candidate that day. This was noted because one of the testing stations needs calibrated after 15 candidates. So at 1900, I was 16, and there were candidates coming in until 1900, 3 or 4 each hour. My math is 20-25 a day

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