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Thread: Cleveland Fire Dept., Fire exam, July 31st, 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by zarack808 View Post
    Hey kzavodny, you commented a couple of times that the psych will weed out a lot of people, even more so than the background checks. I find that interesting. Considering that this is Cleveland, I would expect background issues to be a major roadblock for many applicants. What is it about the psych interview that is so problematic? Have you or anyone else had any experience with these type of psych interviews?
    Yes you are quite right about "it is cleveland", but yes I have a lot of family in the fire service and they all tell me the psych can be a little tricky. Keep the answers short and sweet. Don't free up free information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tslice View Post
    As for the number of PAT takers, I am uncertain as well. I will say that I took mine last week and was slated at 1600. I was not in the testing room until 1900. The Chief running the show that day stated that the guy before me was the 15th candidate that day. This was noted because one of the testing stations needs calibrated after 15 candidates. So at 1900, I was 16, and there were candidates coming in until 1900, 3 or 4 each hour. My math is 20-25 a day
    Hey brother. I'm not sure of the number either. It's all over the board. You may have some civies confused with the military time. haha. good copy?

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    Anyone know when the city plans to have an eligibility list? We're in November and the PAT testing won't be completed until early December. Considering that approx 100 firefighters are expected to DROP in early 2011, I'm thinking the city will need to have a class in place ASAP. Any info?

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    Hey quick question I was not able to print out the pat events can some one give me a heads up on the 7 events my test is the 29. Please and thanks

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    I really dont know exactly when they are going to have the eligibility posted. If you think about it though, they will stop the agility in December. By the time civil service/CFD have tabulated all the results we would maybe find out in January. But then they are going to have to move fast. The dept. is already down around 75 guys anyway from CFD not filling those already positions. There is just about 3-5 guys left on the layoff list. So they will need to fill the DROP positions. Now theres a big question out there, is CFD going to fill all of the positions in the DROP program? I don't think they will. Lets say 100 DROP, I can see Cleveland filling 75 positions and making the dept. find ways to make it short of men/women. On to the agility, when I took my test last Monday I over heard some guys saying that they had test about 50-75 people that day. Also, the agility goes, stepmill 3:30, move a hose roll and pull a pulley system with 50lbs attached, hose drag through a tunnel, simulate a breach with a sledge, tunnel crawl, dummy drag through an obsticle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honestman View Post
    I really dont know exactly when they are going to have the eligibility posted. If you think about it though, they will stop the agility in December. By the time civil service/CFD have tabulated all the results we would maybe find out in January. But then they are going to have to move fast. The dept. is already down around 75 guys anyway from CFD not filling those already positions. There is just about 3-5 guys left on the layoff list. So they will need to fill the DROP positions. Now theres a big question out there, is CFD going to fill all of the positions in the DROP program? I don't think they will. Lets say 100 DROP, I can see Cleveland filling 75 positions and making the dept. find ways to make it short of men/women. On to the agility, when I took my test last Monday I over heard some guys saying that they had test about 50-75 people that day. Also, the agility goes, stepmill 3:30, move a hose roll and pull a pulley system with 50lbs attached, hose drag through a tunnel, simulate a breach with a sledge, tunnel crawl, dummy drag through an obsticle.

    Thanks for your input. With regard to staffing and hiring levels, I recently spoke to a CFD member who told me that the city is planning to fill all DROP vacancies because the department is already at a critically low staffing level. The CFD collective bargaining agreement requires a certain minimum staffing level, and the city is currently BELOW that minimum. As a result, the city is paying loads in OT to firefighters in order to artificially maintain staffing levels. In the long run it would be economically cheaper to hire more firefighters at an entry level pay rate instead of paying the older guys OT - at least that's what I was told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zarack808 View Post
    Thanks for your input. With regard to staffing and hiring levels, I recently spoke to a CFD member who told me that the city is planning to fill all DROP vacancies because the department is already at a critically low staffing level. The CFD collective bargaining agreement requires a certain minimum staffing level, and the city is currently BELOW that minimum. As a result, the city is paying loads in OT to firefighters in order to artificially maintain staffing levels. In the long run it would be economically cheaper to hire more firefighters at an entry level pay rate instead of paying the older guys OT - at least that's what I was told.
    Yes thats all true. However, I can see Cleveland really sticking it to the FD. Think about it too IF you get hired on and go through the academy they only pay $12.50 per hour. So they are making out on that. Most departments pay at least 2/3rds your pay or full pay depending on their step pay program. Hey all thats next is the psych test and maybe some waiting but Im curious to find how many have residency and how many will be moving on?!?! All this waitng is some what mentally exhausting. I understand there is a process and some time is involved, but I just want to know. Now i am just specualting but I think if you made it to the level of the psych and pass and have a tied score with someone else that they will start picking people by their seat number. How else would they do that though if there's tied scores??? i am sure there is no scoring on the psych its probably just pass/fail?!? I dont know though.....If anyone knows add to the forum, thanks.

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    I think it's only $10.50/hr in academy, don't get my hopes up

    The city's union contract with the IAFF was up 3/31/2010 too, according to what I could find. So some things may be in flux as all that goes.

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    Per Civil Service.......

    1700 Candidates made the cut.... This is to go onto the PAT

    This test will be weighed 60/40 60% on the written and 40% on the PAT

    BTW... It is Physical ABILITY Test and not Physical AGILITY Test. Intepret that however you want to....

    They push through quite a few more than the 20-25 people that were said to have pushed through in one of the posts.

    It would be an inaccurate statement for anyone to say that they know their score on the written exam. Interpret that however you want.....

    It is estimated that the last candidate will come through the PAT about Dec 3, 2010

    Good Luck to everyone testing.

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    I think I'm testing on the last day and thats Dec 1st.

    I wonder how many people will fail the first station of the PAT?

    It is Cleveland and there are a quite a few people with DUI's, Drug charges, and felonies.

    $10.50 an hour will be hard for some people to live off of.

    Would people close to getting there degree quit school to take a job with Cleveland if offered?

    Imput and comments welcomed.
    Last edited by kzavodny; 11-10-2010 at 12:48 PM.

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    Would I quit school to take the fire test...........Hmmmmmmm


    I did just that, back when I was called to duty. This is the best job in the world, period. Just an FYI.... You will not get rich being a Civil Servant. I'm not certain if that was your quest or not, but believe me when I tell you that you will not get rich doing this job. We do however, raise families, live in nice neighborhoods and live well. If you don't worship counterfeit Gods you will LOVE the fire service.

    On the flip side, this job can take your life in a heartbeat. That being said, it is still the best job in the world.

    Great job for raising a famliy, starting a business, or just go play some golf.....

    Update..... Dec 2nd is proposed to be the final day of testing at the FTA.

    Stay safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stepup View Post
    Would I quit school to take the fire test...........Hmmmmmmm


    I did just that, back when I was called to duty. This is the best job in the world, period. Just an FYI.... You will not get rich being a Civil Servant. I'm not certain if that was your quest or not, but believe me when I tell you that you will not get rich doing this job. We do however, raise families, live in nice neighborhoods and live well. If you don't worship counterfeit Gods you will LOVE the fire service.

    On the flip side, this job can take your life in a heartbeat. That being said, it is still the best job in the world.

    Great job for raising a famliy, starting a business, or just go play some golf.....

    Update..... Dec 2nd is proposed to be the final day of testing at the FTA.

    Stay safe.

    I was Active Duty Army for seven years with three combats deployments. I know about working hard for little money lol.

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    So after taking the PAT I realized that its not just Pass/fail and that its based on points,7 events and a point for each completed under a certain time,you either get a 1 or a zero for not completing it in enough time,so its obvious that its not P/F because somebody could only get a 5 or 6 etc. etc.So my question is,if anybody knows are they adding these points to our score?i wouldnt think everybody would just get a (PASS) if people didnt complete all the events in the time stated and had say a 6/7....thx and good luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by honestman View Post
    Yes thats all true. However, I can see Cleveland really sticking it to the FD. Think about it too IF you get hired on and go through the academy they only pay $12.50 per hour. So they are making out on that. Most departments pay at least 2/3rds your pay or full pay depending on their step pay program. Hey all thats next is the psych test and maybe some waiting but Im curious to find how many have residency and how many will be moving on?!?! All this waitng is some what mentally exhausting. I understand there is a process and some time is involved, but I just want to know. Now i am just specualting but I think if you made it to the level of the psych and pass and have a tied score with someone else that they will start picking people by their seat number. How else would they do that though if there's tied scores??? i am sure there is no scoring on the psych its probably just pass/fail?!? I dont know though.....If anyone knows add to the forum, thanks.

    Let us not forget that there are interviews included. This is the step in the process where the Civil Service/Chiefs will determine who they want. Your seat number could not be more obsolete. It is only a number used to place you for the written and track you as a number throughout the process, that is it. If there is a tie, they will choose who they like, and who impressed them the most during face to face time.

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    I don't think the interview has anything to do with getting hired. I believe they go right down the list and if you pass the written, pat, background, pysch and medical you are in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddrat1 View Post
    I don't think the interview has anything to do with getting hired. I believe they go right down the list and if you pass the written, pat, background, pysch and medical you are in.
    I believe its a fit-for-duty psych interview with a shrink, not fire personnel. Furthermore, they definitely do NOT go right down the list and hire.
    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/clevel...harter_27.html
    click on that link, go halfway down to "appointments" and welcome yourself to the "1 in 3" rule...

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    Yes, you could score over 100% and pass everything. However if the interviewers think you are a total tool and think you are somebody they dont want backing them on a hoseline you wont even get a second look.

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    There are plenty of tools in the fire service. All I know is that for the most part they go right down the list. It is not like other cities that have an oral board interview. If you are a regular guy I think you will be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddrat1 View Post
    There are plenty of tools in the fire service. All I know is that for the most part they go right down the list. It is not like other cities that have an oral board interview. If you are a regular guy I think you will be fine.
    Oh, this I did not know. I thought there would be an oral board interview.

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    no oral board interview for cleveland fire..... just the psych...

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    I have a series of questions related to Cleveland Fire's testing & hiring process. I would prefer answers from folks who are either CFD members or "in the know".

    Question 1 - Background check: What exactly is involved in the background investigation? Is it simply a criminal history and driving record history? Or will they delve more in depth into our personal backgrounds (e.g., neighbors, family, friends, jobs)? Who conducts these checks? Again, informed answers please.


    Question 2 - Psychological Evaluation: What exactly is involved in the psych? What kinds of questions are asked and what are they trying to assess? I know some of you have been through this process before; your feedback would be greatly appreciated.


    Question 3 - Physical Ability Test: I recently took my PAT and passed all 7 events, thereby earning the maximum of 7 "points" available on the test. For others who have taken the PAT already, did you notice whether there were any candidates who failed one or more events? I thought the PAT was relatively easy, but I'm sure there were some who struggled with it.

    I've been told that the PAT will account for ~50% of our overall score. Per my calculations, each event on the PAT is worth about 7 percentage points in the overall scoring. So failing just one event could be catastrophic to your chances.
    Last edited by zarack808; 11-14-2010 at 10:32 AM.

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    To all:

    Someone posted earlier that the ability and written were tied together: 60% written-40% ability, then they will give you an overall score. I also saw some people struggling with the ability test, which is sad because if Cleveland had decided to do true CPAT the failure rate would be out of bounds.
    There is no interview process in Cleveland, its the psych test and then a Conditional Offer Letter of Appointment. I had a buddy take the test in 1998 and passed everything and just got a Conditional Letter, just a psych test and medical exam, no interview.
    Cub2311 is correct and I know this for sure. They bunch you up with three "random" people and choose one out of the three. So everyone reading this think hard about who will be bunched up with you and do the math. There's a certain quota the fire department needs. So if "John" is bunched with "Salley" and "Jimmy", then more than likely they will choose "Salley".
    Some backround checks do involve speaking with you neighbors or friends. CPD does that. They will send a detective out to ask your neighbors about this individual. Columbus Fire will come down and see where you live at and call certain people/friends of yours.
    From what I've heard from other people about psych test questions from different depts. is that they ask you CRAZY questions, I mean CRAZY questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honestman View Post
    To all:

    Someone posted earlier that the ability and written were tied together: 60% written-40% ability, then they will give you an overall score. I also saw some people struggling with the ability test, which is sad because if Cleveland had decided to do true CPAT the failure rate would be out of bounds.
    There is no interview process in Cleveland, its the psych test and then a Conditional Offer Letter of Appointment. I had a buddy take the test in 1998 and passed everything and just got a Conditional Letter, just a psych test and medical exam, no interview.
    Cub2311 is correct and I know this for sure. They bunch you up with three "random" people and choose one out of the three. So everyone reading this think hard about who will be bunched up with you and do the math. There's a certain quota the fire department needs. So if "John" is bunched with "Salley" and "Jimmy", then more than likely they will choose "Salley".
    Some backround checks do involve speaking with you neighbors or friends. CPD does that. They will send a detective out to ask your neighbors about this individual. Columbus Fire will come down and see where you live at and call certain people/friends of yours.
    From what I've heard from other people about psych test questions from different depts. is that they ask you CRAZY questions, I mean CRAZY questions.

    Good to know bud. I have a question. Say John is a decorated combat veteran an is paired with Salley or another minority. Is that Vet still SOL bc if the others being minorities? If anything the Vets are the minorities taking the test. Bet there are a lot less vets then there are sex/racial minorities. Wasnt the Headen Decree revoked in 2009?

    A lot of departments say up front what background check DQ's are. Anybody know what Clevelands are? I assume any felony or DUI would take you out of the runnings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kzavodny View Post
    I have a question. Say John is a decorated combat veteran an is paired with Salley or another minority. Is that Vet still SOL bc if the others being minorities? If anything the Vets are the minorities taking the test.
    Minorities, whether race or sex based, still take precedence over military and best-candidate qualifications.

    It's tough to get hired on with Cleveland unless you're a minority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpete View Post
    Minorities, whether race or sex based, still take precedence over military and best-candidate qualifications.

    It's tough to get hired on with Cleveland unless you're a minority.
    I know if I got past up for a minority that MAY be less qualified I would run to the Veteran's Affairs office and lawyer up. Reverse discrimination againts a decorated combat vet would look pretty bad.

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