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Thread: Cleveland Fire Dept., Fire exam, July 31st, 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by honestman View Post
    Most of the stuff about E. Cleveland are true They are going to take over because their Dept. is not in the best shape. Its going to be in the millions to take over for sure, 6 I think. Their dept. just had a test and the guys started off in the high 20's and when they were done with the probe stuff mid to high 30's. Thats a terrible wage for starting off in a city like that. Also, like I mentioned in the past Cleveland never knows what they are going to do. I do know for sure they are calling back the laid off Police officers in January and plucking guys off the current list of Police and will be starting to train in mid January and the beginning of February. Those guys have a 6 month academy and get paid next to nothing. Again, who knows about Fire/EMS/E. Cleveland. I heard a "rumor", a big rumor about Cleveland maybe taking over the airport too, but there is specialized training for that and you need your medic's. With Fire I dont have my hopes up considering the "3" rule and resisdency and the MLK 5 points being in the courts. Time will tell I guess, hopefully not 12 years!!!!

    1.) Honestman, I was not aware that the MLK points have already been challenged in the courts. You seem to be fairly connected with the CFD rumor mill; do you have any indication on whether this litigation is expected to delay the hiring process at all?

    2.) This is for those of you who attended the Don McNea prep course. I recently spoke with a couple of applicants who took the course - and did NOT pass the written portion of the exam. They both felt that they failed because the instructor (no names please) gave poor advice/information on how to approach the psych and personality profile questions. Both guys also feel they performed very well on the regular portion of the test (the first 48 questions); so their only explanation for not scoring high enough to be invited to the PAT was that they must've bombed the pysch questions. For those who took the McNea course, did any of you have a similar experience or know somebody else who did? On the other hand, how many of you took the McNea course and scored high enough to move on to the PAT?
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 12-20-2010 at 02:45 PM.

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    i had a buddy in my paramedic class that took the McNea fire school deal (basically because his grandparents posted up the money for it) and he said it was a waste. He has his 240 and he said it was good for anyone off the street that wants an easier time taking the test but he didnt get anything out of it.

    Also side note, anyone know how many of the CFD guys have their paramedics? Seems to me (and this is just stabbing in the dark) but if/when CFD and CEMS join that they will "cut the fat" and I'd guess that it would be guys who are not cross trained (240 and paramedic) so if you get in this last class for either CEMS or CFD and have both you're paramedic and 240 I think you'd be safe from any cuts/layoffs...but who knows with Cleveland

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    i had a buddy in my paramedic class that took the McNea fire school deal (basically because his grandparents posted up the money for it) and he said it was a waste. He has his 240 and he said it was good for anyone off the street that wants an easier time taking the test but he didnt get anything out of it.

    Also side note, anyone know how many of the CFD guys have their paramedics? Seems to me (and this is just stabbing in the dark) but if/when CFD and CEMS join that they will "cut the fat" and I'd guess that it would be guys who are not cross trained (240 and paramedic) so if you get in this last class for either CEMS or CFD and have both you're paramedic and 240 I think you'd be safe from any cuts/layoffs...but who knows with Cleveland
    Per the CFD collective bargaining agreement with the city, layoffs are based solely on seniority (or lack thereof). They go in reverse order of hire. Last one hired on the most recent list gets laid of first, and they continue in that order. Certifications are not a factor.

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    I've heard from some very good sources that the MLK 5 points are in the courts. As far as the hiring process goes; who knows?? My source says he doesn't know and hes tight with the higher ups. I ask him every week.

    I did take the McNeas class and loved it, Chief Collins is a great guy and did well with the class. I am terrible at test's, I mean terrrible. I freeze up when I take them. I passed and passed all the ability sections with time to spare. But I kept my mouth shut, studied for the test, and listened in class. I also took the pre test for Cleveland and only missed one question. I had guys in my McNea class that would run their mouths and bad mouth the Chief. But If you think about it, THEY PAID FOR THE CLASS. Don't mouth off when you signed up for the course. He made it harder so the test would be easier, and it was. I listened (not saying others didn't) and went over all of my questions with 15 minutes to spare. If you had time look over the questions look over them again and again.

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    so they are going to layoff a guy thats a 240/paramedic for a guy who has 10 yrs exp and is a basic???

    I think after the merger or during the merger that might be addressed...

    also, don't get on my case about having seniority and blah blah blah. I spent $4,000 and a year of my life getting my paramedic and if and when CFD and CEMS merge and I am on one or the other and I get thrown out because of lack of seniority but I have more certs than someone else especially if it is a case of paramedic vs basic, yeah lets just say I could hear a lawsuit about public safety or at least a call to Carl Munday

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    so they are going to layoff a guy thats a 240/paramedic for a guy who has 10 yrs exp and is a basic???

    I think after the merger or during the merger that might be addressed...

    also, don't get on my case about having seniority and blah blah blah. I spent $4,000 and a year of my life getting my paramedic and if and when CFD and CEMS merge and I am on one or the other and I get thrown out because of lack of seniority but I have more certs than someone else especially if it is a case of paramedic vs basic, yeah lets just say I could hear a lawsuit about public safety or at least a call to Carl Munday
    I didn't say it made any sense. I'm just explaining to you how layoffs are effected in the CFD. You have to keep in mind that collective bargaining agreements are NEGOTIATED CONTRACTS between the city and the firefighter union. That means a change in the layoff process would require that the firefighter union agrees to such a change. Considering that the majority of the 800-plus Cleveland firefighters are NOT medics, you can bet the farm that will never agree to laying off the non-medics before the medics. Seniority is the standard in the fire service and that is how it will remain for the forseeable future.

    Second, you might have a interesting case for the I-TEAM, but not for the courts. If you become a Cleveland Firefghter, then you have agreed to part of the union. That means you agree to the union's represenation. If the union enters into a collective bargaining agreement with the city, you cannot then sue the city for acting in accordance with that contract. As far as public safety is concerned, you would have to show FACTS as to how the public safety is at risk because you were laid off. That's easier said then done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREJAWZ View Post
    I didn't say it made any sense. I'm just explaining to you how layoffs are effected in the CFD. You have to keep in mind that collective bargaining agreements are NEGOTIATED CONTRACTS between the city and the firefighter union. That means a change in the layoff process would require that the firefighter union agrees to such a change. Considering that the majority of the 800-plus Cleveland firefighters are NOT medics, you can bet the farm that will never agree to laying off the non-medics before the medics. Seniority is the standard in the fire service and that is how it will remain for the forseeable future.

    Second, you might have a interesting case for the I-TEAM, but not for the courts. If you become a Cleveland Firefghter, then you have agreed to part of the union. That means you agree to the union's represenation. If the union enters into a collective bargaining agreement with the city, you cannot then sue the city for acting in accordance with that contract. As far as public safety is concerned, you would have to show FACTS as to how the public safety is at risk because you were laid off. That's easier said then done.
    yeah...i agree with everything you said. I know that it'll not change and yeah i bet Carl Munday would do more than i could with anything with the court but with something like the I-TEAM you explain that a paramedic provide better and more comprehensive care than a basic and so on and so forth I could see the public opinion swaying and as we all know the public is our customer. I dont know. Im just pulling at straws and trying to get people thinking. Im not saying I would do anything of the above. It might be wishful thinking but I feel with my certifications and experience that I have a good chance of getting on CEMS and that would be my backdoor way of getting on CFD. Don't know if it'll work or not but who knows. It just kind of irks me that good people get screwed...but thats life huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honestman View Post
    I've heard from some very good sources that the MLK 5 points are in the courts. As far as the hiring process goes; who knows?? My source says he doesn't know and hes tight with the higher ups. I ask him every week.

    I did take the McNeas class and loved it, Chief Collins is a great guy and did well with the class. I am terrible at test's, I mean terrrible. I freeze up when I take them. I passed and passed all the ability sections with time to spare. But I kept my mouth shut, studied for the test, and listened in class. I also took the pre test for Cleveland and only missed one question. I had guys in my McNea class that would run their mouths and bad mouth the Chief. But If you think about it, THEY PAID FOR THE CLASS. Don't mouth off when you signed up for the course. He made it harder so the test would be easier, and it was. I listened (not saying others didn't) and went over all of my questions with 15 minutes to spare. If you had time look over the questions look over them again and again.
    I, too, attended the Don McNea course. I agree that it was time and money well spent - even if some of the practice tests seemed redundant and somewhat like busy work. I would say that the class paid off even for those who say it was a waste of their time. I suppose it helped me considering that I made it to the physical ability test. Like you, I felt efficient, confident and relaxed the entire time.

    As for those guys i mentioned who didn't pass, their gripe was with the "strongly agree, strongly disagree" approach to the psych questions. They said they answered all the questions in the "strongly" manner as the instructor suggested, but failed anyway. They are of the opinion that answering the questions in such a manner really screwed them. I asked if they were sure they performed well on the regular portion, and they were both absolutely sure. One of the guys had taken a test with a nearby suburb and scored in the high 90s, and according to him, that test was much more difficult than Cleveland's. It will be interesting to see how everything shakes out when the scores come out in a few weeks.
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 12-20-2010 at 05:01 PM.

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    There is much truth to the MLK being in court. If the people would get the MLK 5 points then it would be discrimination if me or you with our 240 cards were not awarded the same five points. It boils down to if you get everything handed to you, Cleveland wants to give you all the points in the word. If you earnd everything and paid your way through school Cleveland doesn't care. It's sad, but true.

    I was suprised when I saw the negative about the McNea school. I heard it was pretty good from a few people..

    Does anybody think 10 points is too much for being a resident? Makes it near impossible to get hired if you are not. Especially if they give those kids the extra 5 for the MLK class. Unless they are complete morons. lol. I'm not a resident, but I am a veteran and got my 10 points (having a purple heart).. I dont think its right that some kid with no life experience can get 15 points just because he/she lived in a certain area. I had to give up 7 years of my life for our country to EARN mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    so they are going to layoff a guy thats a 240/paramedic for a guy who has 10 yrs exp and is a basic???

    I think after the merger or during the merger that might be addressed...

    also, don't get on my case about having seniority and blah blah blah. I spent $4,000 and a year of my life getting my paramedic and if and when CFD and CEMS merge and I am on one or the other and I get thrown out because of lack of seniority but I have more certs than someone else especially if it is a case of paramedic vs basic, yeah lets just say I could hear a lawsuit about public safety or at least a call to Carl Munday
    You sir are a blatant moron. What makes you think anybody cares abut your "certs"? Time means something and you have none of it. That lowly basic with ten years has experience that "one year of your life and 4k" can't buy.

    What would the basis of this lawsuit be? Are you really going to file court paperwork stating that some whinny ***** little boy doesn't agree with a legally bargained labor agreement because he has "certs"? Get real....
    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontvilleFire39 View Post
    You sir are a blatant moron. What makes you think anybody cares abut your "certs"? Time means something and you have none of it. That lowly basic with ten years has experience that "one year of your life and 4k" can't buy.

    What would the basis of this lawsuit be? Are you really going to file court paperwork stating that some whinny ***** little boy doesn't agree with a legally bargained labor agreement because he has "certs"? Get real....
    So you're telling me that some guy with 10 yrs exp and a basic has more and I have my medic oh and by the way I have 5 yrs exp on a different fire dept? Ok so I take by my wording on a lawsuit but Im sure the news would have some great coverage on it since a medic can do a lot more for the community than a basic regardless of time served. I understand the whole collective bargaining agreement and that time served counts for something but I am looking at what it'll serve for the community.

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    Also...I am not saying someone with exp should get layed off just because someone else has higher experiance but I do believe that it needs to be taken in to consideration along with your years of service becuase you look at what a paramedic can give to a service over a basic and what you have given to the service over the years and that should be involved in who get layed off...it'll never happen I know.

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    Hey Guys. I took the cleveland test. I live out of state and I am curious what the 240 is? I have my NREMT-P but have never heard of the 240. Is this just an Ohio state thing? This question might have been asked before, but will have my paramedic help with this new merger? I am a firefighter in Norfolk VA and we have fire and ems combined. Not everyone has to be a medic but we all ride the ambulance unless you are a paid operator or officer. Is Cleveland looking to do the same where everyone will be riding the medic? Thanks and good luck!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sergijm View Post
    Hey Guys. I took the cleveland test. I live out of state and I am curious what the 240 is? I have my NREMT-P but have never heard of the 240. Is this just an Ohio state thing? This question might have been asked before, but will have my paramedic help with this new merger? I am a firefighter in Norfolk VA and we have fire and ems combined. Not everyone has to be a medic but we all ride the ambulance unless you are a paid operator or officer. Is Cleveland looking to do the same where everyone will be riding the medic? Thanks and good luck!!
    240 is the firefighter card you need in ohio for full time firefighting. Id be willing to guess CFD will do that in the academy but a lot of guys have it from other schools. Its also called the firefighter II card. I'd be willing to guess when the merger occurs everyone will ride the squad and that they will eventually weed out the basics through the DROP program and other retirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    So you're telling me that some guy with 10 yrs exp and a basic has more and I have my medic oh and by the way I have 5 yrs exp on a different fire dept? Ok so I take by my wording on a lawsuit but Im sure the news would have some great coverage on it since a medic can do a lot more for the community than a basic regardless of time served. I understand the whole collective bargaining agreement and that time served counts for something but I am looking at what it'll serve for the community.
    Thats just what Cleveland needs, more bad press, really looking out for the Fire Dept genius. If a medic is so much better for the community, maybe EMS is where you belong, and you should go to the news with why CEMS medics get paid significantly less than Firefighters with EMT only. Not even on and you are already looking for ways to drag the Fire Dept through the mud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub2311 View Post
    Thats just what Cleveland needs, more bad press, really looking out for the Fire Dept genius. If a medic is so much better for the community, maybe EMS is where you belong, and you should go to the news with why CEMS medics get paid significantly less than Firefighters with EMT only. Not even on and you are already looking for ways to drag the Fire Dept through the mud.
    right...trying to make it run smoother and provide better care for the community...right dragging through the mud. Again, last time I checked a paramedic can provide more advanced care to the community than a basic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    right...trying to make it run smoother and provide better care for the community...right dragging through the mud. Again, last time I checked a paramedic can provide more advanced care to the community than a basic.
    Your first shift, feel free to share your ideas on how your going to make things run smoother and provide better care for the community. See how well that goes over. Its called entry-level firefighter, do your job. Run for council if you want to change policy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub2311 View Post
    Your first shift, feel free to share your ideas on how your going to make things run smoother and provide better care for the community. See how well that goes over. Its called entry-level firefighter, do your job. Run for council if you want to change policy.
    or just wait until I have time under my belt and get on a fire dept committee and help make the fire dept better. and yes, I've got experience and have done exactly that, helped make my previous fire dept run smoother through the help of a committee.

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    and the only reason I bring all this up is I can see it now...CFD hires a class of say 50 and CEMS puts on a class of 30 there is 80 new cadets. Now, CFD and CEMS merge (which I'd put money down will happen in the start of 2011) and then what? Who do you layoff? Guys from the fire class? Guys from the EMS class? Whoever started the class last?

    Guess that might be why CEMS is trying to get a class of 30 in before the end of January hmmmmmm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    or just wait until I have time under my belt and get on a fire dept committee and help make the fire dept better. and yes, I've got experience and have done exactly that, helped make my previous fire dept run smoother through the help of a committee.
    Sounds a lot better than crying to a reporter. Little excessively prideful, but at least you learn quick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub2311 View Post
    Sounds a lot better than crying to a reporter. Little excessively prideful, but at least you learn quick.
    but Carl Munday will get ***** done

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    This is just a test to see if I did this right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldohfire View Post
    This is just a test to see if I did this right.
    you did it right

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    Everyone knows that CFD and Cleveland EMS are merging. But who knows if the current members of CEMS will just be "crossed over" to a firefighter position or if they will be members of the FD but never trained to be firefighters. If they are just simply crossed over to become firefighters then I am sure there will be lawsuits. But let's say you do get hired soon by CEMS and through the merger you become a firefighter with the FD. You will definitely carry the stigma of "backdoor" entrance into the FD. You will never be respected and never have a good assignment on the job. Whether or not you care about that, it's up to you. Layoffs are strictly seniority. Local 93 has not battled the city over many years (especially the last decade) to have that change just because of the oncoming merger. Also don't go around telling people you have a lot of experience because you have a medic and a whole 4 years on a department. That is not much time at all. I could never figure out why guys who have only a couple years on act like they have been on the job 20 years. This is not a personal attack, just some advice. Good luck in the future.

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    What make you so sure there are going to be layoffs and what makes you so sure they are going to cross-train?

    And buddy I didn't realize the vast amount of experience you have...perhaps you should going for an admin spot not entry level.
    FTM-PTB

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