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Thread: Cleveland Fire Dept., Fire exam, July 31st, 2010

  1. #141
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    toddrat1...you currently work for the city, right? What have your sources told you about when test scores will be released? I know how this city works - people talk. I'm sure you've talked to somebody. lol


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    I do work for the city although not CFD. I am in the process just like everyone else. I went through civil service for my job and it took about two years. I was told we would get our results in January but who knows. I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

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    anyone hear word on when they are going to release test scores and such?

    or are they going to wait for the Cleveland EMS test to be done?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    anyone hear word on when they are going to release test scores and such?

    or are they going to wait for the Cleveland EMS test to be done?
    According to civil service, test scores will not go out until January.

    There is a lot of stuff going on right now with Cleveland Fire. First, you have the fire/ems merger that is revving up. Not to mention talks of Cleveland taking over for East Cleveland FD. There are also plans to give an officers exam in late winter/early spring. And of course, there are the DROP retirements that are about to kick in 2011. Not sure what all this means; but CFD has a lot of coals in the fire at the moment. There is a possibility that hiring could be a priority - or it could be put on the back burner.

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    I would think hiring is a priority. They wouldnt just give a test to have a list like the suburbs. The test before this one was 1998. As far as East Cleveland I cant see them taking over ec. What would that bring to the city of cleveland?

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    Like you, I tend to think the city will place a priority on hiring. However, I'm also skeptical of the city's ability to effectively juggle several balls at once. Now I agree that the city would not give a fire test just for the heck of it. They certainly do plan to hire - if it's economically feasible. It's no secret that the city's operating budget for public safety services places significant strain on the city's overall budget. And as far as I know, those cops are still laid off. One could argue that attrition through DROP might further help solve some of the city's budget woes. Remember, the city gave a test in 1998 and that list remained dormant for almost 12 years.

    As for handling fire service operations for East Cleveland, I can think of a number of ways this arrangement could be mutually beneficial. For one, there are certain economical and manpower effeciencies that are realized through regionalization. As you might know, there is a big push for regionalizing services throughout NE Ohio, not just in the fire service. Second, Cleveland can generate extra revenue if it sells its services to East Cleveland. I've also been told that this prospective arrangement will allow Cleveland to also utilize East Cleveland's ff personnel, particularly for ALS ems runs - since nearly all of E.C. firefighters are medics. But again, this is all still very preliminary.

    I'm not trying to be negative or anything. Trust me, I want this job as much as anyone. Getting hired onto CFD would be a dream come true. Would rather do this than make millions in the NFL or NBA. But I also understand that there are other potential hurdles to consider - especially in light of Cleveland's history. Either way, I'll be ready if I'm called.
    Last edited by zarack808; 12-17-2010 at 05:06 PM.

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    Well CEMS "test" they had is off. apparently they were going to do this non civil service test to see where the applicants they had stood along with a physical ability test but got a call yesterday night saying that was off and they'd be contacting us in the near future.

    So much for my backdoor way to CFD...for now

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    Quote Originally Posted by zarack808 View Post
    I've also been told that this prospective arrangement will allow Cleveland to also utilize East Cleveland's ff personnel, particularly for ALS ems runs - since nearly all of E.C. firefighters are medics.
    not true.... they only took ems over in the early/mid 2000's, not alot of medics at ecfd, some but not alot.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    Most of the stuff about E. Cleveland are true They are going to take over because their Dept. is not in the best shape. Its going to be in the millions to take over for sure, 6 I think. Their dept. just had a test and the guys started off in the high 20's and when they were done with the probe stuff mid to high 30's. Thats a terrible wage for starting off in a city like that. Also, like I mentioned in the past Cleveland never knows what they are going to do. I do know for sure they are calling back the laid off Police officers in January and plucking guys off the current list of Police and will be starting to train in mid January and the beginning of February. Those guys have a 6 month academy and get paid next to nothing. Again, who knows about Fire/EMS/E. Cleveland. I heard a "rumor", a big rumor about Cleveland maybe taking over the airport too, but there is specialized training for that and you need your medic's. With Fire I dont have my hopes up considering the "3" rule and resisdency and the MLK 5 points being in the courts. Time will tell I guess, hopefully not 12 years!!!!

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    apparently the merger status of CEMS and CFD isn't stopping CEMS from hiring. I have an interview at the start of January. Don't know what will happen after that but if I get on I'd think with my 240 and my paramedic I'd be sitting pretty with qualifications for when the merger occurrs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honestman View Post
    Most of the stuff about E. Cleveland are true They are going to take over because their Dept. is not in the best shape. Its going to be in the millions to take over for sure, 6 I think. Their dept. just had a test and the guys started off in the high 20's and when they were done with the probe stuff mid to high 30's. Thats a terrible wage for starting off in a city like that. Also, like I mentioned in the past Cleveland never knows what they are going to do. I do know for sure they are calling back the laid off Police officers in January and plucking guys off the current list of Police and will be starting to train in mid January and the beginning of February. Those guys have a 6 month academy and get paid next to nothing. Again, who knows about Fire/EMS/E. Cleveland. I heard a "rumor", a big rumor about Cleveland maybe taking over the airport too, but there is specialized training for that and you need your medic's. With Fire I dont have my hopes up considering the "3" rule and resisdency and the MLK 5 points being in the courts. Time will tell I guess, hopefully not 12 years!!!!

    1.) Honestman, I was not aware that the MLK points have already been challenged in the courts. You seem to be fairly connected with the CFD rumor mill; do you have any indication on whether this litigation is expected to delay the hiring process at all?

    2.) This is for those of you who attended the Don McNea prep course. I recently spoke with a couple of applicants who took the course - and did NOT pass the written portion of the exam. They both felt that they failed because the instructor (no names please) gave poor advice/information on how to approach the psych and personality profile questions. Both guys also feel they performed very well on the regular portion of the test (the first 48 questions); so their only explanation for not scoring high enough to be invited to the PAT was that they must've bombed the pysch questions. For those who took the McNea course, did any of you have a similar experience or know somebody else who did? On the other hand, how many of you took the McNea course and scored high enough to move on to the PAT?
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 12-20-2010 at 02:45 PM.

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    i had a buddy in my paramedic class that took the McNea fire school deal (basically because his grandparents posted up the money for it) and he said it was a waste. He has his 240 and he said it was good for anyone off the street that wants an easier time taking the test but he didnt get anything out of it.

    Also side note, anyone know how many of the CFD guys have their paramedics? Seems to me (and this is just stabbing in the dark) but if/when CFD and CEMS join that they will "cut the fat" and I'd guess that it would be guys who are not cross trained (240 and paramedic) so if you get in this last class for either CEMS or CFD and have both you're paramedic and 240 I think you'd be safe from any cuts/layoffs...but who knows with Cleveland

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    i had a buddy in my paramedic class that took the McNea fire school deal (basically because his grandparents posted up the money for it) and he said it was a waste. He has his 240 and he said it was good for anyone off the street that wants an easier time taking the test but he didnt get anything out of it.

    Also side note, anyone know how many of the CFD guys have their paramedics? Seems to me (and this is just stabbing in the dark) but if/when CFD and CEMS join that they will "cut the fat" and I'd guess that it would be guys who are not cross trained (240 and paramedic) so if you get in this last class for either CEMS or CFD and have both you're paramedic and 240 I think you'd be safe from any cuts/layoffs...but who knows with Cleveland
    Per the CFD collective bargaining agreement with the city, layoffs are based solely on seniority (or lack thereof). They go in reverse order of hire. Last one hired on the most recent list gets laid of first, and they continue in that order. Certifications are not a factor.

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    I've heard from some very good sources that the MLK 5 points are in the courts. As far as the hiring process goes; who knows?? My source says he doesn't know and hes tight with the higher ups. I ask him every week.

    I did take the McNeas class and loved it, Chief Collins is a great guy and did well with the class. I am terrible at test's, I mean terrrible. I freeze up when I take them. I passed and passed all the ability sections with time to spare. But I kept my mouth shut, studied for the test, and listened in class. I also took the pre test for Cleveland and only missed one question. I had guys in my McNea class that would run their mouths and bad mouth the Chief. But If you think about it, THEY PAID FOR THE CLASS. Don't mouth off when you signed up for the course. He made it harder so the test would be easier, and it was. I listened (not saying others didn't) and went over all of my questions with 15 minutes to spare. If you had time look over the questions look over them again and again.

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    so they are going to layoff a guy thats a 240/paramedic for a guy who has 10 yrs exp and is a basic???

    I think after the merger or during the merger that might be addressed...

    also, don't get on my case about having seniority and blah blah blah. I spent $4,000 and a year of my life getting my paramedic and if and when CFD and CEMS merge and I am on one or the other and I get thrown out because of lack of seniority but I have more certs than someone else especially if it is a case of paramedic vs basic, yeah lets just say I could hear a lawsuit about public safety or at least a call to Carl Munday

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    so they are going to layoff a guy thats a 240/paramedic for a guy who has 10 yrs exp and is a basic???

    I think after the merger or during the merger that might be addressed...

    also, don't get on my case about having seniority and blah blah blah. I spent $4,000 and a year of my life getting my paramedic and if and when CFD and CEMS merge and I am on one or the other and I get thrown out because of lack of seniority but I have more certs than someone else especially if it is a case of paramedic vs basic, yeah lets just say I could hear a lawsuit about public safety or at least a call to Carl Munday
    I didn't say it made any sense. I'm just explaining to you how layoffs are effected in the CFD. You have to keep in mind that collective bargaining agreements are NEGOTIATED CONTRACTS between the city and the firefighter union. That means a change in the layoff process would require that the firefighter union agrees to such a change. Considering that the majority of the 800-plus Cleveland firefighters are NOT medics, you can bet the farm that will never agree to laying off the non-medics before the medics. Seniority is the standard in the fire service and that is how it will remain for the forseeable future.

    Second, you might have a interesting case for the I-TEAM, but not for the courts. If you become a Cleveland Firefghter, then you have agreed to part of the union. That means you agree to the union's represenation. If the union enters into a collective bargaining agreement with the city, you cannot then sue the city for acting in accordance with that contract. As far as public safety is concerned, you would have to show FACTS as to how the public safety is at risk because you were laid off. That's easier said then done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREJAWZ View Post
    I didn't say it made any sense. I'm just explaining to you how layoffs are effected in the CFD. You have to keep in mind that collective bargaining agreements are NEGOTIATED CONTRACTS between the city and the firefighter union. That means a change in the layoff process would require that the firefighter union agrees to such a change. Considering that the majority of the 800-plus Cleveland firefighters are NOT medics, you can bet the farm that will never agree to laying off the non-medics before the medics. Seniority is the standard in the fire service and that is how it will remain for the forseeable future.

    Second, you might have a interesting case for the I-TEAM, but not for the courts. If you become a Cleveland Firefghter, then you have agreed to part of the union. That means you agree to the union's represenation. If the union enters into a collective bargaining agreement with the city, you cannot then sue the city for acting in accordance with that contract. As far as public safety is concerned, you would have to show FACTS as to how the public safety is at risk because you were laid off. That's easier said then done.
    yeah...i agree with everything you said. I know that it'll not change and yeah i bet Carl Munday would do more than i could with anything with the court but with something like the I-TEAM you explain that a paramedic provide better and more comprehensive care than a basic and so on and so forth I could see the public opinion swaying and as we all know the public is our customer. I dont know. Im just pulling at straws and trying to get people thinking. Im not saying I would do anything of the above. It might be wishful thinking but I feel with my certifications and experience that I have a good chance of getting on CEMS and that would be my backdoor way of getting on CFD. Don't know if it'll work or not but who knows. It just kind of irks me that good people get screwed...but thats life huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honestman View Post
    I've heard from some very good sources that the MLK 5 points are in the courts. As far as the hiring process goes; who knows?? My source says he doesn't know and hes tight with the higher ups. I ask him every week.

    I did take the McNeas class and loved it, Chief Collins is a great guy and did well with the class. I am terrible at test's, I mean terrrible. I freeze up when I take them. I passed and passed all the ability sections with time to spare. But I kept my mouth shut, studied for the test, and listened in class. I also took the pre test for Cleveland and only missed one question. I had guys in my McNea class that would run their mouths and bad mouth the Chief. But If you think about it, THEY PAID FOR THE CLASS. Don't mouth off when you signed up for the course. He made it harder so the test would be easier, and it was. I listened (not saying others didn't) and went over all of my questions with 15 minutes to spare. If you had time look over the questions look over them again and again.
    I, too, attended the Don McNea course. I agree that it was time and money well spent - even if some of the practice tests seemed redundant and somewhat like busy work. I would say that the class paid off even for those who say it was a waste of their time. I suppose it helped me considering that I made it to the physical ability test. Like you, I felt efficient, confident and relaxed the entire time.

    As for those guys i mentioned who didn't pass, their gripe was with the "strongly agree, strongly disagree" approach to the psych questions. They said they answered all the questions in the "strongly" manner as the instructor suggested, but failed anyway. They are of the opinion that answering the questions in such a manner really screwed them. I asked if they were sure they performed well on the regular portion, and they were both absolutely sure. One of the guys had taken a test with a nearby suburb and scored in the high 90s, and according to him, that test was much more difficult than Cleveland's. It will be interesting to see how everything shakes out when the scores come out in a few weeks.
    Last edited by FIREJAWZ; 12-20-2010 at 05:01 PM.

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    There is much truth to the MLK being in court. If the people would get the MLK 5 points then it would be discrimination if me or you with our 240 cards were not awarded the same five points. It boils down to if you get everything handed to you, Cleveland wants to give you all the points in the word. If you earnd everything and paid your way through school Cleveland doesn't care. It's sad, but true.

    I was suprised when I saw the negative about the McNea school. I heard it was pretty good from a few people..

    Does anybody think 10 points is too much for being a resident? Makes it near impossible to get hired if you are not. Especially if they give those kids the extra 5 for the MLK class. Unless they are complete morons. lol. I'm not a resident, but I am a veteran and got my 10 points (having a purple heart).. I dont think its right that some kid with no life experience can get 15 points just because he/she lived in a certain area. I had to give up 7 years of my life for our country to EARN mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedicmatt View Post
    so they are going to layoff a guy thats a 240/paramedic for a guy who has 10 yrs exp and is a basic???

    I think after the merger or during the merger that might be addressed...

    also, don't get on my case about having seniority and blah blah blah. I spent $4,000 and a year of my life getting my paramedic and if and when CFD and CEMS merge and I am on one or the other and I get thrown out because of lack of seniority but I have more certs than someone else especially if it is a case of paramedic vs basic, yeah lets just say I could hear a lawsuit about public safety or at least a call to Carl Munday
    You sir are a blatant moron. What makes you think anybody cares abut your "certs"? Time means something and you have none of it. That lowly basic with ten years has experience that "one year of your life and 4k" can't buy.

    What would the basis of this lawsuit be? Are you really going to file court paperwork stating that some whinny ***** little boy doesn't agree with a legally bargained labor agreement because he has "certs"? Get real....
    FTM-PTB

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