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  1. #21
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rands1 View Post
    Now hopefully our fire millage passes this fall so that we can still have a fire department.

    If you guys spell it out to your citizens correctly and truthfully, you should not be denied the fire millage.

    Put it this way politely but bluntly:

    If we do not have the funds, we can longer provide fire protection.

    We can't buy the equipment and protective gear for our people.

    We cannot protect our community or even our own homes.

    A vote for the Fire Department is a vote for your protection.


    And stay with the 1.75"
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Insanity.

    What's the real motivation for reducing the hoseline size?
    Sounds like a salesman with a sales pitch, and a lot of 1 1\2" he needs to dump.

  3. #23
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    I'm pretty sure NFPA has standards on this don't they? And correct me if I'm wrong, but NFPA prefers 1 3/4" hose on apparatus, I'm pretty sure also that for a better ISO rating you are required to have a certain amount of 1 3/4" hose on your pumpers and any ladders with pump capability. So, the question is, if NFPA and ISO both prefer 1 3/4" hose, then why wouldn't your dept?

    If it's a problem with funding then put it to your tax payers like this: better equipment equals a lower ISO rating, a lower ISO rating equals lower insurance rates and better fire protection/prevention, and lower insurance rates and fire protection/prevention equals savings for the tax payers well beyond the cost of good gear/equipment. A lot of communities have had to learn this the hard way. What you need to do is go to departments that have good ISO ratings, preferably a three or above, and do a powerpoint presentation on how they attained a good ISO rating and how that rating could result in money for your city/community and present it at the next community meeting, or call a meeting to plead your case. Citizens naturally won't just hand over the money for it, but if you make it an issue and build your case right, you just might get what you ak for. But, if you don't want to put in the effort to get the equipment you need, well, make do with what ya got.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 03-29-2010 at 11:19 AM.

  4. #24
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217
    I'm pretty sure NFPA has standards on this don't they? And correct me if I'm wrong, but NFPA prefers 1 3/4" hose on apparatus, I'm pretty sure also that for a better ISO rating you are required to have a certain amount of 1 3/4" hose on your pumpers and any ladders with pump capability. So, the question is, if NFPA and ISO both prefer 1 3/4" hose, then why wouldn't your dept?

    Sorry ffi: ISO does not care if the dept has 1 1/2" or 1 3/4".

    They only refer to 1 1/2" and 2 1/2".

    Here is the table from ISO Mitagation Online: http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3012.html


    I agree with using 1 3/4" but it is not a requirement by NFPA or ISO.
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  5. #25
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Sorry ffi: ISO does not care if the dept has 1 1/2" or 1 3/4".

    They only refer to 1 1/2" and 2 1/2".


    I agree with using 1 3/4" but it is not a requirement by NFPA or ISO.
    You want to get into a real battle with some ISO guys use 2 inch hose...

    I am dead dog serious when I tell you that after a phone conversation with the ISO they wanted us to unload all of our 2 inch preconnects and replace them with either 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch hose. She told us that 2 inch hose was too big to be used as a suitable substitue for 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch hose. I had to prove to her that according to the ISO it was a suitable substitute. Looking back on it I think I couold have blatantly lied to her and told her it was 1 3/4 inch and she never would have known.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber ffmedcbk1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    I'm pretty sure NFPA has standards on this don't they? And correct me if I'm wrong, but NFPA prefers 1 3/4" hose on apparatus, I'm pretty sure also that for a better ISO rating you are required to have a certain amount of 1 3/4" hose on your pumpers and any ladders with pump capability. So, the question is, if NFPA and ISO both prefer 1 3/4" hose, then why wouldn't your dept?
    now there is parameters that nfpa standards want but it is contradictary in the places you will see in the standards. for example...

    nfpa 1710 2004 edition states:5.2.4.2.2(3) Establishment of an effective water flow application rate of 1140 L/min (300 gpm) from two hand-lines, each of which shall have a minimum of 380 L/min (100 gpm). Each attack and backup line shall be operated by a minimum of two individuals to effectively and safely maintain the line.

    should you try to flow 100 per attack line? but in nfpa 1410 they say for wyed lines to have 300 gpm between 2 hoselines. is 100 gpm per hose good?no! the nfpa is confused as you see.

    the real crux is that you need to determine what is most beneficial for fire attack in your department. and it is your call predominately. now niosh would come in and advise the minimum flow they want in an after death report (150 min ala. oakland,ca fire ) but even with that is that the "proper amount" for your fd?

    just a few article for the viewers...
    http://www.firedistrict7.com/tpdffil...eStandpipe.pdf
    http://www.fireengineering.com/index...perations.html

    I some times ride with three on the pumper and i know that it makes it difficult as you roll up and lay in (minus one guy) the po sets up the pump and connects the ldh, and then you are it to get the hose stretched out to the attack position and await the hydrant man. but as we get in i feel it would be wrong i.m.o. to lessen the amount of punch we can deliever. plus if in a fire the amount of water you slug at the fire is directly related to the duration of amount of time needing to keep it flowing. let me explain....
    if a 10 year old tried to know me out it would take a whole lot of punches and the 10 yo will be tired beacuse it would take a long time for me to get beat down, however if mike tyson did it i'd probably go down very quick with one hook. sure i'll get knocked out but one is going to work much faster and efficiently. IT IS ABOUT OVERPOWERING GPM TO THE BTU'S.

    i reccommend maximizing the attack lines potential (sorry i am not using the vindicators but would like to try them). we balance the gpm and the reaction force to the weight of the advancing hose line. 185 gpm out of a 15/16ths on 1.75 and 326 gpm out of a 1.25" tip on 2.5" has worked well for us. big amounts of water that should be manageable by the ffs. beyond that we use mini-monitors, deck guns, and aerial towers.

    I know that some out there use 1" on the 1.75" hoses but I feel this is a bit high in the reaction force for a manageable 2 man attack and underpumping would kink it overly.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  7. #27
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You want to get into a real battle with some ISO guys use 2 inch hose...

    I am dead dog serious when I tell you that after a phone conversation with the ISO they wanted us to unload all of our 2 inch preconnects and replace them with either 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch hose. She told us that 2 inch hose was too big to be used as a suitable substitue for 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch hose. I had to prove to her that according to the ISO it was a suitable substitute. Looking back on it I think I couold have blatantly lied to her and told her it was 1 3/4 inch and she never would have known.
    Yep you're right... 2" is a suitable equivilent for 1-1/2" or 1-3/4".

    It is also suitable for the first 400 feet of your 1200 foot supply load. But I would not recommend that.

    Big Hose = Big Water.
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  8. #28
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Yep you're right... 2" is a suitable equivilent for 1-1/2" or 1-3/4".

    It is also suitable for the first 400 feet of your 1200 foot supply load. But I would not recommend that.

    Big Hose = Big Water.
    And as I have stated many times we flow big water with our 2 inch hose. We have 3 set flows. The first 2 with our 200 at 75 combo nozzle, 160 gpm at about 55 psi np, and 200 gpm at 75 psi np. The last one is with a 1 1/4 inch smooth bore where we flow 300 gpm at just over 40 psi np.

    Honestly in the ISO suitable substitues i don't think they are suggesting using 2 inch for supply. I think they are suggesting using it instead of the first 400 feet of 2 1/2 attack line.

    Frankly, the premise of being able to attempt to tell me that a hose that flows more than their standard is a bad thing was ludicrous to me and I told them that. Then I proved to them in their own rules that is was okay. Still waiting for that apology, or admission that they were wrong, it's probably still coming after all it is only been 10 years now.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  9. #29
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And as I have stated many times we flow big water with our 2 inch hose. We have 3 set flows. The first 2 with our 200 at 75 combo nozzle, 160 gpm at about 55 psi np, and 200 gpm at 75 psi np. The last one is with a 1 1/4 inch smooth bore where we flow 300 gpm at just over 40 psi np.

    Honestly in the ISO suitable substitues i don't think they are suggesting using 2 inch for supply. I think they are suggesting using it instead of the first 400 feet of 2 1/2 attack line.

    Still waiting for that apology, or admission that they were wrong, it's probably still coming after all it is only been 10 years now.

    Look at the ISO Chart. It states that you can use 400 feet of 2" or 2 1/2" for Supply Hose but the remainder must be 2-1/2" or larger. I found this hard to believe as well.

    I hope you're not holding your breath over that apology...
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  10. #30
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Look at the ISO Chart. It states that you can use 400 feet of 2" or 2 1/2" for Supply Hose but the remainder must be 2-1/2" or larger. I found this hard to believe as well.

    I hope you're not holding your breath over that apology...
    Look at the chart again. All the heading of the category says is 2 1/2 inch or larger hose. It doesn't say supply hose.

    I stopped waiting for it right after the ISO rep did the inspection. I wasn't impressed.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  11. #31
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It doesn't say supply hose.
    You are correct, but you and I both know what they mean; i.e. the 1200 feet load.

    As you stated, they do not always know what they mean. I have found this to be true... even when I was doing field assessments and tried to get info from the office, they had to refer to the same documents that I already had.

    That is why they will not provide you any info as to how you did on your assessment. They are not even suppose to give you a range. But I have found that a few will bend a bit and give you a huge ballpark... i.e.

    Examples:

    "Well you're not a 10, but you're not a 1 either."

    "I've seen more water out of a dry sponge than what that engine provides."

    "If that a smooth bore nozzle... it should be in a museum."
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  12. #32
    Forum Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    Our department runs both 1 1/2 ans 2 1/2 lines. Our preconnect's are 1 1/2 ( being replaced next year with 1 3/4 ) and we have 2 1/2 ready if a heavier volume of water is needed.

  13. #33
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    just go to all red lines
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    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

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