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  1. #21
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    Default my 2 cents.........

    Ok......... i heard this all before...... but think about this one minute...

    Your offer from WSI might have said 96k a year average. You knew you would be there working everyday. You may not have realized it was 12 or 16 hrs a day not 24, but still, what got you there was 96k a year.

    If they told you all the facts ahead of time, 99% of you would have still gone.

    Realize this.....it is a business to make money.........they offered you 96k, but what did you really make?

    I started as a fire fighter but in a month went to prevention, got my leadership 2 & 3's done because they offered us more pay and schools since we would only have 12 hr days. I made 118k my first year and was annualized at about 134k the second year.

    The fact is I made alot more then I expected. Many of you who were lucky to get 16 hr days were making well over 100k as a firefighter sitting backwards.

    Do not tell me you ran tons of calls, I was at 5 different bases, and the amount of total calls was less almost non existent. The calls after 11 pm till 7 am was how many????? i think maybe count on both hands in a year.

    Should you be paid extra for that time???? you got overtime for every call after 11 till 7 am. but now you want money for just being there.

    Your original offer got you to Iraq, and if they had changed the contract to read you would be on call 24 hrs a day 7 days a week for 96k a year 99% of you would have still gone, because that is what you expected to make. But many of you made alot more then 96k....be honest??????

    WSI is no different then any other company in the world. They are there to make money, how much profit they make is not important, what is important is did you make the 96k or more a year that they dangled in front of you to go in the first place........ If you did, then you have no reason to demand more.

    I get fed up listening to people you think they are being discriminated against when they were offered a sweet deal.

    If the first few years didn't get paid overtime for the time between 11 pm and 7 am, then maybe....just maybe you deserve some extra pay now, only because it was offered to us when I was there in 2007,8,9..... retro pay so to speak.... but pay for just being there?????????

    We all signed up expecting 96k a year, you all made more then that so stop crying.......................
    Last edited by thc030; 04-08-2010 at 01:26 PM.


  2. #22
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    Adam,
    You being assigned to a truck without pay is a valid point, one that will be difficult to prove, but valid. I've conceded that point. Having a radio however? That, again, can be argued that it was used for accountability in case of incoming or in the event you are needed for overtime. Not a very solid argument.

    As for the trucks. Every base i went to (and i went to a lot) allowed their guys to go where they wanted, when they wanted on their days off as long as they had their radios. This again is an accountability issue. You keep bringing up the 'at a civvy department' argument, but it doesn't apply. You are not working for a city, you are in a war zone and the SSL needs to know where you are at, on or off duty.

  3. #23
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    Default

    And THC
    it's my understanding they didn't get over time due to the fact they were working split 12 hours shifts, one during the day, one at night.
    Anyone can correct me if that is wrong

  4. #24
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    Default 12 on/off

    They were not doing 12 on / 12 off in 2007,8,9 when I was there, except for dispatchers.

    They worked 16 hr days if on a truck, and from 11pm-7 am were paid straight time for any calls in those hours.

    They used the dispatchers log to verify hours from time of dispatch till you were in service. If you had a good dispatcher he would not log you in service till you were back in station and ready for the next call, so if you needed to top off or replace anything, you were not in service till it was completed.

    If you were working 12 hr days this still applies, you got extra pay to respond to any calls after your hours. but not for time you were not working.

    The only people that should be asking for extra money is those who responded to calls after hours and did not get any pay at all...... not for just being there..........you accepted that fact when you signed your contract in the beginning.

  5. #25
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    Adam,

    I do not know you personally and others have thanked you for doing what you personally feel is right. However, I can not understand why you are so adamant to trying to get more money. As I said before, you were at Taji for your whole year, except travel for R&R's and any training. I worked with an LT on Stryker from Taji and have worked with another Taji guy stateside who was there the same time you were. Trust me, YOU DID NOT WORK HARD! I would tell this guy how Stryker was when we started it up in Aug 05 and he would rub it in how you guys would lay out by the pool, lived in nice quarters and more.

    I lived a tent with 7 others, sleeping on a cot with a personal space of just 6'x4'. Waking up during rain season with an inch of water in our tent (and it was already raised 4 inches by the wood floor). Yes we bitched but every pay day made up for it. Others have endured comparable living conditions for longer than I had too. So should I argue I should have been paid more than you cause of my living conditions? Facts are facts and it was already said - everyone that worked in 04/05/06 made much more than the 90k we signed up for.

    Now you coming in here trying to make a rational point of carrying a radio while off-duty or having to keep said radio on while sleeping. Come on man! Are you serious? Crying about carrying a radio? Some bases did not have enough radios to go around. As its been said, the radio was also used for accountability during incoming or whatever.

    You also argue about "stateside" dept.'s and 24/48 schedule. Apparently you do not realize the DoD FF's work a 24/24 with a kelley day every other week. What is even more glaring here, is the fact that these guys may be paid while sleeping but what are their salaries? Again, invalid arguement because this was not stateside, non-union and in a war zone. We all knew what we were getting into.

    However, 24 on 24 off for one week is 96 hours - hmmm you got paid 6/ 16's for 96 hours, correct? Granted you "only" had one day off rather than 3 for this particular week.

    Week 2 24 on 24 off is 72 hours,(with kelley day) but you still you got paid 96.

    Still want to cry about not being paid while sleeping? I can assure you do not get startled awake every night. I know your SSL, Randy Myer (RIP), was a great man and took care of you, both pay and work (of lack thereof).

    You have your beliefs, we have ours, I am not opting out and I will sign my letter. You might argue why but I will take whatever I might get and donate half of it to a burn center of my choice and other half - have fun!

    Peace
    Last edited by emtguy625; 03-22-2010 at 07:56 PM. Reason: spelling
    Thank you to the brave men and women of our great military, past, present and future for allowing my right to express my opinion and my opinion only, not representation of any company I may work for.

  6. #26
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    Default

    Well im done with this thread. I know im not the only one who feels this way but I guess im the only one to speak up.

  7. #27
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    Default For What Its Worth

    Adam (and others),

    For what it's worth, you made some good points that I thought about over the years and was angry, too. But, thc & emtguy pretty much summed up my feelings on how I ultimately feel. Plus, I didn't catch the fact that you were at Taji with Randy Meyer in '05....come on now. I was there from '04 to '08 and promise you I know all to well what went on at Taji. You ought to be paying WSI back some money, bud .

    WSI, to the very best of my knowledge, was not paid for '24 hr' coverage (at least during your time). They billed for hours worked. If they had charged for 24 hr coverage at the rate we were being paid, they would have never been awarded, or been allowed to keep, the contract. It would have 'bankrupt' the system for lack of a better word. Or they simply would have changed our rate of pay to reflect our hours worked vs total pay.

    I chose to accept whatever the settlement ended up being because I think we may be owed a few extra bucks...if you were there in the beginning, which you were. We really don't deserve much more than that. As I stated before, there is no love lost being WSI and I, but it is was it is. They got theirs and I got mine. This stuff will eat you up if you let it. We each have our own reasons for the decision we make. I'm just tired of seeing all these FFs thinking they are owed the world for the easiest job you ever had.

  8. #28
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    THC
    you are correct, the hours you stated are the current arrangement. When the contract first kicked off though they were working a different schedule, from what i remember they were split 12's.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    Contract,
    you say you wish to debate, yet you do not address any of the issues that have been presented.
    1. Is it only for the money?

    2. Please produce the contract. Many of the people included in the lawsuit did not work in 05-06, does this mean that the new 'do not send in the paper work' argument will only apply to the early contract holders? Everyone, and I mean everyone, was clear to me on how i would be paid for my two years over there. My contract reflected those agreements

    3. If it is about more than that (principles) how can you justify being represented by a person that represents anything /but/ strong moral principles.

    4. If the contract argument falls through, what else will you fall back on. According to Mr. Hill the reason he is pursuing the money is due to lost over time, how will you prove this allegation.

    Just as a side note. The only time i ever heard Chicken or Beef while was over there, or even said it to the fire fighters was in a GO 1 violation situation. It's unfortunate that you encountered such a bad chain of command, but i'm sure if the issue would have been pressed Big T or Wayne would have been forced to hear you out and the overtime would have more then likely been awarded (have fun with that time sheet).

    This all comes down to people wanting more money, something i have no issue with, but they should work for the money they want, not just expect to get something for free. It seems to me that is what is going on here. If this is not the case, please present your point.

    pete
    Peter,
    1) For me it is not only about the money, it is the fact I was lied to. I want WSI to admit that fact. I was there in 2004 and we were hired on the fact of 12 on 12 off.
    2) A copy of the contract can be found on the Sass website (Lawyers for the Class Action).
    3) I am represented by no one. But I guess it can be said that I worked for a company without strong moral principles.
    4) If I do file a lawsuit and lose, then I can say I fought the good fight.

  10. #30
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    Smile Truth Be Told

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdispiece View Post
    Adam (and others),

    For what it's worth, you made some good points that I thought about over the years and was angry, too. But, thc & emtguy pretty much summed up my feelings on how I ultimately feel. Plus, I didn't catch the fact that you were at Taji with Randy Meyer in '05....come on now. I was there from '04 to '08 and promise you I know all to well what went on at Taji. You ought to be paying WSI back some money, bud .

    WSI, to the very best of my knowledge, was not paid for '24 hr' coverage (at least during your time). They billed for hours worked. If they had charged for 24 hr coverage at the rate we were being paid, they would have never been awarded, or been allowed to keep, the contract. It would have 'bankrupt' the system for lack of a better word. Or they simply would have changed our rate of pay to reflect our hours worked vs total pay.

    I chose to accept whatever the settlement ended up being because I think we may be owed a few extra bucks...if you were there in the beginning, which you were. We really don't deserve much more than that. As I stated before, there is no love lost being WSI and I, but it is was it is. They got theirs and I got mine. This stuff will eat you up if you let it. We each have our own reasons for the decision we make. I'm just tired of seeing all these FFs thinking they are owed the world for the easiest job you ever had.
    Outdispiece,
    1) No one was at Taji from 04-08, (Not one person who was stationed there stayed from 2004-2008)so there goes your credibility (Unless it was a typo).
    2) To the best of my knowledge, WSI was a subcontractor for KBR who was under a cost plus contract with the government. KBR Paid WSI for 24 hour coverage for each person employed in a operations capacity.
    KBR paid all its operations employees 24 hours a day, and they had the contract, in fact KBR wanted WSI to pay its employees 24 hours a day, this is information from the number 2 KBR fire manager.
    3) Changed our rate of pay? WSI could not do that because the base 40 hour pay for LOGCAP Contracts are pre figured for each job title, only the hours worked can be adjusted.
    4) Bankrupt the system? Ha, ha, KBR was paid billions and billions of dollars, something like 100 billion dollars (Please do not quote me on this as I will have to research this to get a better number).

    WSI was also required to provide uniforms which they did not do until late 2005 and when they did the Vice President from Florida came to Taji and told us he was the one who got them, but in truth it was a requirement in the contract all along.

    This stuff does not eat me up at all, I just like the truth being told.
    Last edited by Contract Firefighter; 03-23-2010 at 01:46 AM. Reason: Misstatement

  11. #31
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    1. I don't know anyone that was stationed there from 04 - 08 but i do know 2 guys there where there from 06 - 09, so it's not that far fetched.
    2. You are correct on the cost plus, however, the contract switched to fixed cost in 08. This again bring ups the question, are you only fighting for the people in the early days, or for everyone in the contract/suit?
    I have never heard from anyone in KBR (Ken or RC or any of those cats) that they wanted to pay out that way.
    KBR pays their employees for time worked as well, both fire fighter and operations. They make no money on their days off, yet they are getting paid from the Army the same way WSI did. They are required carry radios during off time and follow the same standards that WSI did. Should they be in the lawsuit?
    3. Seems like a logical answer
    4. Well, if anything can be learned about KBR and 'bankrupting the system' is that it can be done. They mismanaged the money so badly, and paid out in such excess that they underbid Dyncorps and Fluer by 900000 for the Afghanistan contract and the army told them to **** off. So yes, the system can be bankrupted, and was done so.

    From all these arguments i get this:
    1. Things were crappy in the beginning. This does not seem all that surprising. It was a new contract and a new war. Were the logistics messed up? Heck ya, were the schedules not ironed out, nope. Did you really expect to go to a war zone and have everything running smoothly right away?
    I was a military fire fighter deployed over there during that time, and if anything the contract fire guys had it way better than us, the only difference was we showed up with our gear.
    2. You want an apology, here goes:
    We are sorry.
    3. You want money for time you didn't work, but you still feel you are owed. This is the hardest thing I've been trying to wrap my head around. I don't understand how you want money that you didn't work for. This seems insane to me. I understand there are valid arguments for the guys during the stand up. The 12's seemed crazy to me when it was explained to me at Taji (ya i was there) but so did the fire fighters driving buses and all the nonsense that was going on out at station 2 (which i'm sure you want these guys feel they should get paid for)but to just want money because the company made money off of you is kooky to me. That is why they are there as are you.. to make money. Good for them.
    Last edited by peterbound; 03-23-2010 at 02:43 AM.

  12. #32
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    1) Yes I know the same 2 people 06-09.

    2) LOGCAP III is cost plus and was never changed. I believe it was Ken I talked to. KBR Pays 24 hours a day, if there was manpower issues you worked another shift (24 Hours).
    3) Yes.
    4) KBR Underbid the others (Fluor & Dyncorp) because they have been doing LOGCAP Contracts for years and know what it cost's to build bases and support them down to a penny. The Army did not give them the Contract because of all the issues with performance in Iraq.

    On the other things.

    1) I never once said anything about conditions, just conditions of employment in my contract.
    2) I never said I want a apology. Just WSI to admit they did not honor the contract.
    3) You need to campaign in your city's government and say you will not pay the firefighter's for 24 hour shift work, just 16 hours. I would never had a problem if they had 2 shifts 12 hours each.

  13. #33
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    Default Clarification

    I was in Iraq with WSI from July '04 till late in '08. I didn't mean to imply that I was at Taji the entire time; if I did, it was unintentional. I'll politely take my credibility back.

    By 'bankruptcy', I simply meant if we were paid the same hourly rate for 24 hours a day, WSI wouldn't have been awarded that contract. It would have been too expensive.

    As far as how WSI was paid, there doesn't seem to be a consensus. I won't speculate any further because I certainly don't know for sure.

    You are correct about the uniforms; I bought my grey t-shirts, too. We did get those sweet hats, though.

    So, where does that leave me (us). I still think we are owed a few bucks for that time that we were working 12's. If I recall correctly, it was about 6-8 months (from my timeline).

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Clarification

    Outdispiece, I guess we are on the same page then.
    Thanks for the clarification, I was hoping it was something like that. I take half the responsibility, as after you clarified yourself, I can see where the misunderstanding came from.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasko189 View Post
    What I want MORE then money is for WSI to have to publically answer for there screwed up labor practices.
    So, if the final outcome of your new lawsuit is that WSI answers publicly for being evil, then you won't care if you don't get a dime? OR if you do get money, you'll donate it to some charitable organization? If not, then you're full of sh*t.

    For future reference:

    What I want MORE then (than) money is for WSI to have to publically (While "publically" is an acceptable variant, "publicly" is the more normal and accepted spelling. I'd love to give you the benefit of the doubt and think you knew that going in, but I can't) answer for there (their) screwed up labor practices.

  16. #36
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    Contract
    When the TO swapped from 139 to 159 the fixed cost was put into place. Don't believe me, call over there and ask, i just got back a few months ago.

    The way i interpret it is that they did honor their contract. They were required to provide 24 hours of fire protection serviced to the army. The way the went about doing that (in your time frame) was splitting the shifts. The base was covered for 24 hours. /That/ is what the intent of the contract was, not that they had to pay people 24 hours a day every day.
    Same thing with the 16/OT, the base was covered, and the individuals were paid if worked. The contract was honored. This wasn't some crazy idea that they came up with on their own. This pay scheme had to be ran through both KBR and the Army contracting before it could be put into effect.

    The KBR thing, absolutely due to mismanaging money. Their performance wasn't so much of an issue (i found your train of though off when in one second you can claim they 'been doing LOGCAP for years, and know how to build a base down to the penny' then claim they were not re-contracted due to poor performance), trust me, I had to sit thru the VTC's with Guy and Larry explaining the 'new quality direction' they were heading. In these meetings the bidding did come up, and the money issue was the most d@amning aspect of KBRs reputation, not the performance, if anything thats all they had going for them.
    The government also wanted to break up the KBR monopoly that was present. Hence the division of the country (Afghanistan) to two contractors.

    The local fire stations are salary, as a contractor you were not. You were paid for Time Worked. Never once was i confused about this idea. Never once did it seem fuzzy or unclear to me. It was explained and written in my contract. 16 Hours anything after i get OT. Seemed to make sense. At my rank i worked /every day/ i should get paid for 24 hours a day for all the time i was there? That's ridiculous, i didn't work at night, unless i got up for a call, in which case i was paid.
    The local fire fighters are paid over time (same as you were) if requested to stay or work another shift (as were you). So the OT aspect is fairly similar.

    You need to be honest with yourself and just admit the fact that you want more money from WSI. This moral high ground you are trying to stand on just won't hold your weight.

  17. #37
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    Default

    While I will gladly take any money I get out of this settlement, if it comes down to getting paid for what I actually WORKED, I'd owe WSI some serious money!

  18. #38
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Contract Firefighter View Post
    Outdispiece,
    1) No one was at Taji from 04-08, (Not one person who was stationed there stayed from 2004-2008)so there goes your credibility (Unless it was a typo).
    2) To the best of my knowledge, WSI was a subcontractor for KBR who was under a cost plus contract with the government. KBR Paid WSI for 24 hour coverage for each person employed in a operations capacity.
    KBR paid all its operations employees 24 hours a day, and they had the contract, in fact KBR wanted WSI to pay its employees 24 hours a day, this is information from the number 2 KBR fire manager.
    3) Changed our rate of pay? WSI could not do that because the base 40 hour pay for LOGCAP Contracts are pre figured for each job title, only the hours worked can be adjusted.
    4) Bankrupt the system? Ha, ha, KBR was paid billions and billions of dollars, something like 100 billion dollars (Please do not quote me on this as I will have to research this to get a better number).

    WSI was also required to provide uniforms which they did not do until late 2005 and when they did the Vice President from Florida came to Taji and told us he was the one who got them, but in truth it was a requirement in the contract all along.

    This stuff does not eat me up at all, I just like the truth being told.
    Do not quote you due to lack of research??? OOPS!! THERE GOES YOUR CREDIBILITY...
    I love that the forums haven't changed!! Greatest soap opera ever!!!!

    Outdispiece....Monkeys forever fella...

  19. #39
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    Default off subject

    Sorry in advance...but I just gotta know...how was the food over there? I could put up with alot as long as I was well fed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaker19 View Post
    Sorry in advance...but I just gotta know...how was the food over there? I could put up with alot as long as I was well fed.
    Most places don't suck, some are actually pretty damn good. There's plenty of it, so you won't go hungry.

    Just make sure you get your well fed ***** to the gym also.

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