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    Default What's wrong with this picture? - Pumper Capacity Certification Plate

    See anything odd?

    Image edited to hide manufacture's name.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    Capacity 1500, yet it is rated at 1260 at 150 psi.
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    Like Fyred, I see capacity listed as 1500, but only getting 1260 at 150 psi.

    What's the story behind this, where did you find it?

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    Pesky details......
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    It could very well be that this unit is destined for Canada. Canadian apparatus should be tested in either Imperial GPM or liters per minute. 1500 US GPM translates to roughly 1250 Imperial GPM. I say "roughly" because if you were to use a mathematical formula to convert US GPM to Imperial GPM the answer you get will be rounded off to come up with the Imperial GPM equivalent.

    For instance, roughly, 500 US GPM = 420 IGPM, 750 = 625, 1000 = 840, 1250 = 1050, 1500 = 1250, 1750 = 1500, 2000 = 1750 etc.

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    Maybe a 1500 was installed in anticipation of future expansion?????
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Maybe a 1500 was installed in anticipation of future expansion?????
    They were asking 1500, but got 1260 instead! good deal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianFyrTrks View Post
    They were asking 1500, but got 1260 instead! good deal?
    What I meant was, maybe they ordered a 1500, but only have enough discharges (right now) for 1250?????????? Perhaps they want to expand in the future- add a deck gun?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    What I meant was, maybe they ordered a 1500, but only have enough discharges (right now) for 1250?????????? Perhaps they want to expand in the future- add a deck gun?
    Sorry not buying that.

    I believe one of 2 things is happening here:

    1) Stupid mistake by whomever made the pump plate.

    2) For some reason, horsepower, or whatever, the pump was unable to make 1500 gpm so was down rated to 1260.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Sorry not buying that.

    I believe one of 2 things is happening here:
    I don't either, but a mistake by whomever made the plate was too obvious, and not being able to put out 1500 is just such a HUGE boo-boo that I wanted to offer the benefit of the doubt.
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    I've never sold one, nor have I seen one, but I have heard of folks buying more "pump" than they need so as the rig ages, it will still maintain the desired pump rating certification. So instead of being at the bitter edge of driving a pump with just enough horsepower, they have some room to compensate for future powertrain losses.

    Not saying it is right, but I've heard that argument before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    What I meant was, maybe they ordered a 1500, but only have enough discharges (right now) for 1250?????????? Perhaps they want to expand in the future- add a deck gun?
    According to Table 16.7.1 of NFPA 1901, it has adequate discharges for a pump rated up to 2,000 GPM.

    It's being driven by a Cummins ISM, rated at 450 HP/1,450 tq, so horsepower isn't a problem.

    Also, every Qmax pump made is designed to flow 2,250 from a draft, assuming you give it adequate intakes, discharges, and horsepower. (This comes verbatim from Gary Handwerk's mouth.)



    Ponder this other question for a moment...
    Here's a picture of the piping feeding the crosslays and the tankfill.


    Note that a single pipe below the valves feeds all three, but they're in a series teed off the single pipe. I don't know if this is 3" or 2" piping, but consider a scenario where both crosslays are being used for interior attack, both actively flowing no less than 150 GPM each.

    What happens to the flow pressure of the preconnects if the operator opens the tank-fill completely? Since it's first in the lineup, it would sap a huge amount of water from the piping. Remember a tank-fill has no nozzle orifice, so the flow is fairly substantial.
    Last edited by txgp17; 03-24-2010 at 03:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    According to Table 16.7.1 of NFPA 1901, it has adequate discharges for a pump rated up to 2,000 GPM.

    It's being driven by a Cummins ISM, rated at 450 HP/1,550 tq, so horsepower isn't a problem.

    Also, every Qmax pump made is designed to flow 2,250, assuming you give it adequate intakes, discharges, and horsepower. (This comes verbatim from Gary Handwerk's mouth.)



    Ponder this other question for a moment...
    Here's a picture of the piping feeding the crosslays and the tankfill.


    Not that a single pipe below the valves feeds all three, but they're in a series teed off the single pipe. I don't know if this is 3" or 2" piping, but consider a scenario where both crosslays are being used for interior attack, both actively flowing now less than 150 GPM each.

    What happens to the flow pressure of the preconnects if the operator opens the tank-fill completely? Since it's first in the lineup, it would sap a huge amount of water from the piping. Remember a tank-fill has no nozzle orifice, so the flow is fairly substantial.
    I've seen this setup before. At least one builder uses it pretty much as standard, but I can't remeber who it is. If the manifold pipe is of adequate size and looped (tied in on both sides of the pump discharge casting) it wouldn't be too bad. This one looks to be 3-1/2" or 4" which I really don't think would be enough if you opened the tank fill completely.

    We learned very quickly about opening the tank fill completely. One of our members called me one morning saying that he doing a weekly run of the CAFS compressor. He was getting an overheat warning for the compressor oil. When I arrived at the station and he recreated what he had done it became apparent very quickly. He had opened our 2" tank fill all the way. He was getting exactly what you describe. All of the water that was being circulated was going right back into the tank through the fill. Because the "nozzle" pressure was so low, none of the water was going into the compressor oil cooler. I got out a triangular file and filed a groove on the valve's operating rod about 1-1/2" in. Our operating instructions now say that when using CAF, do not open the tank fill past that groove.
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 03-21-2010 at 09:48 PM.

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    Withdrawn because of previous post
    Last edited by fire2eagle; 03-23-2010 at 08:58 AM.

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    Default UPDATE - Error made by the builder

    OK folks,
    Garage Supervisor called the Salesman, and the Salesman was not happy. The pump was supposed to be UL tested at 1,500, and in fact, the pump model plate provided by Hale is marked "QMAX150-23L", which translates to:
    • Qmax Pump
    • 1,500 rating
    • "L" series pump transmission
    • 2.28 drive ratio
    Basically, someone got the facts mixed up for the UL Certification Test.

    We performed our Acceptance Test at 1,500 GPM, and it passed with flying colors.

    Also, I've secured permission to use this truck for the Practical Portions of a Service Testing class on Thursday and Friday. When I get it hooked up, I'll measure the actual flow loss in that discharge header extension when the tank-fill is opened.

    I'll do it once when both preconnects are flowing 150 each (300 total), and 200 each (400 total). Facts will be posted then.
    Last edited by txgp17; 03-24-2010 at 12:51 PM.
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    Thanks for the info on the screw up.

    I'm also very interested in what you get when you perform your tests. I don't have that set up, but the info would be nice to have, to put in the gray matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    See anything odd?

    Image edited to hide manufacture's name.



    Probably made and installed by a goofy mechanic, aka -> parts changer!!

    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

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    the capacity was done in U.S. dry gallons and the pump test data is in U.S. wet gallons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post

    What happens to the flow pressure of the preconnects if the operator opens the tank-fill completely?
    You rob the pump of water in a hurry. I figured this out when our newest engines was delivered. If the tank fill is more than cracked the EPG will sense low supply and shut it down.

    Crappy design in my book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17
    What happens to the flow pressure of the preconnects if the operator opens the tank-fill completely?
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245
    You rob the pump of water in a hurry. I figured this out when our newest engines was delivered. If the tank fill is more than cracked the EPG will sense low supply and shut it down.

    Crappy design in my book.
    I'm not sure if I am reading what "txgp17" is asking is right, or not. But if your flowing water through the preconnects and open the tank fill valve, you are going to have some very unhappy guys holding the line.

    If you have the newer electronic governor set in pressure mode, it should ramp up quite a bit to keep the pressure up on the preconnect, depending on the size of the pipe to the tank.

    This is also controlled by your water source at the intake. If you have a good hydrant system, then there shouldn't be a problem.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong on what I think is being asked.

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    All right my friends....
    The builder made a goof on the Certification Test. A new test has been performed at 1,500 GPM, and the results sent to the builder, and a new certification form and plate will be issued.

    Used this truck two days for a service testing class, and I really put it to the test.

    Concerning the mini-manifold feeding the crosslays and tank-fill, The piping is 2" inches, and I found virtually no decrease in actual flow when the tank-fill was opened.

    Here's two more pics:
    From the front with the cab tilted.


    This pic has a 2" to 1" adapter up next to it for comparison.


    Here's how I tested it.
    I added the necessary hose to replicate our standard crosslay, and wyed them into out pitot manifold at the service testing pit. Here's a pic:

    Yes, there is a 2" connected, but the valve feeding it was off with the bleeder closed, so there was no flow through that line.

    I cranked pump discharge pressure up to what we would use with our preconnects. We use 200' of 1", feeding Akron Turbojets designed for 100 psi, but we don't flow it at 100 psi, we use 55 psi, which gives us a flow of 150 GPM, when the nozzle is set to 200.

    150 GPM = 35 psi loss per 100' in 1".

    So NP + FL = PDP
    55 + (35 + 35) = 125 psi

    Then, I throttled the apparatus valves equally until I had a desired flow of 300 GPM at the pitot tip. We used a 1" tip, requiring a pitot pressure of 20 psi on a Akron FK-25 kit.

    Then we simply opened the tank-fill completely, allowed the governor to correct PDP (which only took about 2 seconds), then measured the decrease in flow, which at 300 GPM & 125 psi, was only 2 psi loss at the pitot tip, which translates to 14 GPM (7 GPM per line) less with the tank-fill open. Clearly, nothing to be concerned over.

    Then we repeated the scenario as if we wanted 200 GPM per cross-lay, with a nozzle pressure of 100 psi.

    So, 62 psi loss per 100' in 1" hose.

    NP + FL = PDP
    100 + (62 + 62) = 224 psi

    At this flow we needed 36 psi on a 1" tip for 408 GPM. When the tank fill was completely opened, pitot pressure fell to 32 psi, or 384 GPM. Only 24 GPM less, which is 12 GPM less per line.

    My fears have been put to rest.



    Here are a few more pics...





    Also, this was first experience with a Trident Air Prime

    The Air Prime evacuates the pump of air really really fast. Using a single 6" intake hose at 10' of lift, I got a prime in 21 seconds. The pump was completely dry, and at the end of 21 seconds I was flowing water out of a 2" discharge, not just ejecting it on the ground from the primer's outlet.

    Even with 40' of dry 6" hose, it was primed in 30 seconds. I was impressed.

    The flip side is that it doesn't pull a "hard vacuum" very well, nothing like an eccentric rotary unit would. When I did a dry vacuum test, it took several minutes of operation to get it to 22" Hg. Once the vacuum gauge reached 15", it was very difficult to move. The pump was good and tight, it held the vacuum for at least 7 minutes before falling below 12" Hg.

    This truck has a Cummins ISM with a standard compressor, which I think is a 18.7 CFM unit. At idle (700 RPM), you could run the primer for 54 seconds before running out of air. With the engine at 1,000 RPM, you could run the primer continuously.

    On the next truck, I'll push for a 30 CFM compressor.
    Last edited by txgp17; 04-09-2010 at 04:59 PM.
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