1. #1
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    Default ?? re: Justifications to replace Cairns packs

    Hello all,

    We're looking to replace about 10 Cairns air packs. They are from 2001 and are pretty beat up. From my limited experience w/AFG grants, it seems that they do not like to replace air packs that are less than 10 years old. We are unable to find replacement parts because the packs are no longer made.

    Has anybody been able to successfully justify replacement of Cairns packs in the past, or other manufacturers that no longer make packs?

    Any help/info is much appreciated.

    Glenn Young
    Prudence Island Vol Fire Dept.
    odg_2k@yahoo.com

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    Can't help you on a Cairns narrative, however with the limited funding this year, be prepared to get a computer denial simply based on the age.

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    I posted this about Survivair.

    Alot of '97 edition SCBA have been successfully replaced. The key will be to sell it in the narrative. Survivair is a great example of some of the ones I helped with getting replaced. The company went a different route to meet the '07 edition; came out with a new SCBA all together vs. upgrading.

    Things to mention in the narrative.

    1) Upgrading is not an option.

    2) The manufacturer developed a whole new SCBA to meet the '07 edition.

    3) How long will the company service the current units or provide replacement parts.

    4) If equipped with "elephant trunks" are a snag hazard.

    5) No interoperability with Mutual Aid departments.

    6) Are they passing yearly testing?

    7) Are or have they failed at an inappropriate time?

    8) How much is it costing them to maintain?

    Just to list a few.
    As Sly posted, the project may not get past the computer, but if this is your greatest need you have to try.

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    In my opinion. Key is that they are not NFPA certified, any edition, as they lost their certification when Cairns quit making/supporting the equipment. As if they do not even exist.

    I would say the correct entry is that you have no SCBA. You have scrap metal.

    Same as a General bran fire extinguisher.

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    Default Cairns

    That is correct, with Cairns aka Global Secure going out of business, they lost thier NIOSH certification for use in an IDLH environment effective December 31, 2009. Also in NFPA it states for an SCBA to be tested for NFPA Standards it must be certified by NIOSH for use in an IDLH environment. Therefore as previously said and as my department ran into last year you basically have 10 SCBA that are scrap metal. Email me and I can send you a copy of the NIOSH letter repealing certification for these SCBA as well as a copy of our narrative. I contacted Tom Harrington from DHS/FEMA regarding this for 2009 and due to the SCBA being compliant until after Dec 2009 I had to state last year they were compliant and only 5 years old and was advised to re-apply in 2010 and state they were not. Which thanks to our community and churches this will not be needed as they raised $80,000 to replace our SCBA. Email me and I can send you more info.
    jhendrick@franktonfire.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    In my opinion. Key is that they are not NFPA certified, any edition, as they lost their certification when Cairns quit making/supporting the equipment. As if they do not even exist.

    I would say the correct entry is that you have no SCBA. You have scrap metal.
    But that would be like saying I don't have any apparatus on an application just because it's out of NFPA compliance (what isn't?) or the manufacturer is out of business.

    Yet, there are plenty of scrap metal fire trucks still running around out there.

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    Gotta agree with SLY here...remember these are firefighters you are talking to here (assuming you make it past BIG BLUE). You're not going to be able to pull the wool over their eyes that the packs are suddenly a threat to everyone's safety because the company went defunct. Just state the facts and what is really putting your firefighters at risk. Follow the Program Guidance...and most importantly, since funds are even tighter this year, work with a professional, such as Kurt who can help give you all the advantages you will need!

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    Thanks for all of your input.

    I agree that a grant writing course/seminar is in order for us however; it's not in the budget this year. In the meantime; thanks to all for your time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLY4420 View Post
    But that would be like saying I don't have any apparatus on an application just because it's out of NFPA compliance (what isn't?) or the manufacturer is out of business.

    Yet, there are plenty of scrap metal fire trucks still running around out there.
    No. If your truck was built in conformance to the NFPA 1901 in effect at the time of mfg, it meets NFPA1901 forever. "Grandfathered". Standards for SCBA , as established by NFPA, must comply to NIOSH standard sand have NIOSH certification. As stated above. Cairns SCBA no longer have NIOSH certification.

    Same as your General Fire Extinguishers. When the company went away so did their UL certification. So can no longer refill or hydrotest. At this point should have already have been scrapped.

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    You're going to have to do a good job of describing "beat up" if you want a shot. Are you talking "beat up" as in the straps or torn, or that the backframes are damaged (take out of service) or won't pass annual flow-testing (take out of service), or what?

    There's more to replacing SCBA (or anything else for that matter) than just citing that it's not NFPA compliant. You have to show why it needs replaced.

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    I too have several Cairns SCBA...the reason I was going to use for replacement is that I can no longer get them Flow Tested, now that Dec 2009 has passed the company that did our flow testing has lost their certification for flow testing Cairns, and here in Maine it's a requirement that all SCBA be Flow Tested every year. So once they are past the 1 year date, somewhere around August I'm going to have to take them out of service or risk a $1000 fine, per pack, from Maine Bureau of Labor.

    Would that work?

    Frank

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankr View Post
    I too have several Cairns SCBA...the reason I was going to use for replacement is that I can no longer get them Flow Tested, now that Dec 2009 has passed the company that did our flow testing has lost their certification for flow testing Cairns, and here in Maine it's a requirement that all SCBA be Flow Tested every year. So once they are past the 1 year date, somewhere around August I'm going to have to take them out of service or risk a $1000 fine, per pack, from Maine Bureau of Labor.

    Would that work?

    Frank
    That info needs to get into the narrative to strengthen your case.

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    Our department was advised by FEMA rep directly to to list # of SCBA's as zero. Explain in narrative and refrence the NIOSH letter revoking certification for Cairns packs. Looks like the the same would work for other manufacturers listed in Niosh letter. Hope this helps others.... and us.

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    is this true for Surviveair too? Can they be tested? Upgraded? I got a department that has 10 that are pretty much junk.
    Blandford Fire Department
    93 Main Street
    Blandford, Ma 01008

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    This is all I could find on the NIOSH site for Survivair:
    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usern...ir04062006.pdf

    This is the link to the Cairns letter:
    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usern...1_11202008.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlandfordFire View Post
    is this true for Surviveair too? Can they be tested? Upgraded? I got a department that has 10 that are pretty much junk.
    Yes, the Panther brand was discontinued when the 2007 edition took affect. Instead of providing upgrades to existing SCBA Survivair developed a whole new SCBA the Warrior brand.

    I believe (don't hold me to this) they can still be tested as they are still providing replacement parts at least for a short period of time maybe 5 years.

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