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Thread: SAFER is out.

  1. #26
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    Your paid guys volunteer off duty because of the implied threat YOU MADE RIGHT HERE ON FH.COM. You stated flat out they would be ostracized, not get help from the vollies, and would be looked upon negatively by the officers, to the point of discipline. You have been told enough times here it is illegal and someday one of your paid guys is going to tell your chief no way am I coming in for free anymore and he is going to be punished or fired and your FD will lose their *** in court when it all comes out. The back pay and fines will be a major burden to your FD.

    Brotherhood? You haven't got a clue about that. if you did you would have no part of extorting your paid guys to work for free.


    A threat?

    I stated that if they didn't help out the volunteers, and thier brother working the shift, they may not get much help in return. It's always been that way here, and it's always worked.

    I guess to me that's not a threat. But if you want help, ya have to give help in return. Same thing if I askk for a little help around my house and you say no. Don't ask me for help cause ya ain't gonna get it.

    Each paid man has the choice if they want to respond on thier off-time. Every paid man we ever had has responded on thier off-time. I guess that is what you call a tradition, and you are always agrueing that readition in the fire service is a good thing, right?

    You seem to have a lot of problems with how we do business. career staff supporting vollies. Vollies being the primary responders. Paid staff helping out when they are off. You would probably even have an issue with our volunteer chief and officers supervising paid staff. Oh well, it works for us and that is really all that matters.

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    Posted by LA
    I see unionized firefighters coming into places and doing what they can to drive off vollies so they can now justify additional hiring using the "lack of manpower" caused by the vollies leaving. It's happened where I came from and where I am now. I even dealt with career firefighters attempting to inflitrate paid personnel into one of my past well functioning VFDs.
    Wow... in earlier posts by you, there is lamentation of the fact that career firefighters who live in your district do not volunteer with your FD... now they are attempting to "infiltrate"?

    Good god man... get your excremental matter together. You have spun your tales more times than a set of tires at a Nascar race.
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    No, La, you missed the point, and that is no surprise.

    It is ILLEGAL for paid firefighters to volunteer back to the same department they are PAID to work for. You may not like it, but it is the law. Just because no on has pressed the issue doesn't mean that tomorrow someone won't say enough is enough and report you.

    The difference between your assinine if you don't help me I won't help you BS is you are demanding paid people work for free or they will face being ostracized. Tell your super vollies to go over to that paid guy's house, who came in for free, and do whatever he does for a living for free. You know install central air for free, tune up his car for free, roof his house for free, replace your toilet for free, EVERYTIME the paid guy needs something one of the super vollies should do whatever he does for a living for him for free since you are saying the paid guy has to do what he does for the vollies for free or he isn't a Brother. NOW DO YOU SEE HOW IDIOTIC THAT SOUNDS?

    The reality is I don't give 2 turds to Sheboygan what your podunk Fd does, you can break all the federal labor laws you want. Eventually it will bite you in the ***. My problem come in with you believing what you do is right for EVERYONE when in fact it is illegal where you are. If you would shut up about it and just do what you do instead of pontificating to the rest of the world no one would say anything about it. But, it appears you enjoy getting slapped around on here...
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    Wow... in earlier posts by you, there is lamentation of the fact that career firefighters who live in your district do not volunteer with your FD... now they are attempting to "infiltrate"?

    If you note, that was reference to another department I was on, where the union attempted to convince the citizens that our VFD "needed" career personnel, even though they (the citizens) had no problems with the services we were delivering.

    Here is the exact quote. Good god man, please read, then type.

    I even dealt with career firefighters attempting to inflitrate paid personnel into one of my past well functioning VFDs.

    They did what they could do to get the citizens to demand that we hire personnel. it didn't work. And the department is still all-volunteer to this day.

    And yes, I do have an issue with career personnel who don't volunteer in the districts in which they live on thier off-time. Not only do I respond as volunteer here on my off-time, but I also volunteer in an adjoining district, where I don't even live, as well.

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    The reality is I don't give 2 turds to Sheboygan what your podunk Fd does, you can break all the federal labor laws you want. Eventually it will bite you in the ***. My problem come in with you believing what you do is right for EVERYONE when in fact it is illegal where you are. If you would shut up about it and just do what you do instead of pontificating to the rest of the world no one would say anything about it. But, it appears you enjoy getting slapped around on here...

    Never said our career staff responding on thier off-hours was right for anyone. It works for us. The department command staff does not see an issue with it. The career staff does not see an issue with it.

    Not allowing paid staff to respond on thier off time if they wish is simply wrong. Flat out wrong. Last I knew volunteering was a damn right.

    Thios is a completly different issue from believing that many departments could layoff career personnel and replace them with trained, motivated and compensated (through incentive packages) volunteersm, which is what this thread is about.

    The difference between your assinine if you don't help me I won't help you BS is you are demanding paid people work for free or they will face being ostracized. Tell your super vollies to go over to that paid guy's house, who came in for free, and do whatever he does for a living for free. You know install central air for free, tune up his car for free, roof his house for free, replace your toilet for free, EVERYTIME the paid guy needs something one of the super vollies should do whatever he does for a living for him for free since you are saying the paid guy has

    Actually, not the same thing at all.

    Nobody ever demanded anyone respond off-duty. I guess you just don't get that our career staff wants to respond when off duty and available. They like what they do and they have no issue doing it beyond the paycheck. It's the way we have always operated and the folks being hired understand that. Really, is that such a tough concept to understand?

    You seem to be the one hung up on this concept.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-01-2010 at 02:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Nobody ever demanded anyone respond off-duty. I guess you just don't get that our career staff wants to respond when off duty and available. They like what they do and they have no issue doing it beyond the paycheck. It's the way we have always operated and the folks being hired understand that. Really, is that such a tough concept to understand?

    You seem to be the one hung up on this concept.
    I am calling you on this change in your story. In fact I will go as far as to say what you are saying now is a complete LIE compared to what you said months ago on this very same subject. You have now fabricated this happy, happy, joy, joy, we want to work for free scenario. When it was talked about before YOU SAID your command staff EXPECTS the paid people to respond for free off duty. YOU SAID your vollies would ostracize any paid guy who didn't "VOLUNTEER" to work for free off duty. YOU SAID it would be looked on very unfavorably and maybe be grounds for disciplinary action. Like I said earlier you need to take notes so you don't trip over your own keyboard trying to fabricate crap to cover other fabricated crap you fabricated.

    Tell me how your vollies expecting a paid firefighter to break federal law and volunteer for free to the place he gets a paycheck from is any different than that same paid firefighter expecting that volly to supply him with whatever serivces the volly supplies in his career to that paid firefighter for free? It really is EXACTLY the same, the volly will ostracize the paid guy for not working his career for free but the volly owes no similar services to the career firefighter? Talk about hypocrisy...seems to be a common thread in most of your posts anyways so I am not all that surprised.

    By the way it doesn't matter that your FD or your paid guys or your parish council or anyone is okay with this, federal law supercedes your being okay with it.
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  7. #32
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    When it was talked about before YOU SAID your command staff EXPECTS the paid people to respond for free off duty.

    That's right. Our paid personnel have always responded off-duty, and yes, it's an cultural expectation that they will. Sorta like the cultural expectation that you will join the union and participate.

    YOU SAID your vollies would ostracize any paid guy who didn't "VOLUNTEER" to work for free off duty

    Those are your words, not mine. I said they would be a lot less likley to hang around the station and help him out. They will still roll on calls, but will do it from home in POV, which in some cases, is actually a more effective response. If you want to call that ostracize, that's fine, though to me it's a bit on the strong side.

    Guys who go beyond the minimum will be rewarded with gusy going beyond the minimum to help them.

    YOU SAID it would be looked on very unfavorably and maybe be grounds for disciplinary action

    Sure it will be viewed unfavorably as it is a cultural expectation. He may be passed over for specialized training in favor of another member of the paid staff who will respond off-dutyand because of that has the potential to use that skill more frequently. He may even be passed over for an active volunteer that makes more calls than he does on his shift, and because of that, may use the skill more frequently.

    But I never said it would be cause for disciplinary action. As I stated, the career member is not required to respond but we have a long standing history of an expectation he will respond. I guess it's how we gauge how much he cares about the jopb and the community. This also applies to classes taught and taken on his own time.


    Like I said earlier you need to take notes so you don't trip over your own keyboard trying to fabricate crap to cover other fabricated crap you fabricated.

    Quote me where I stated he would be disciplined.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-01-2010 at 03:42 PM.

  8. #33
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    LA,

    Paint it however you want. Like I said previously, do as you wish. Eventually one of your paid guys is going to have had enough and then we will see what the feds have to say.

    If I cared enough I could go back and find the other topic where you said ostracized and disciplined regarding this. You said it, and that is that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Nobody ever demanded anyone respond off-duty. I guess you just don't get that our career staff wants to respond when off duty and available. They like what they do and they have no issue doing it beyond the paycheck. It's the way we have always operated and the folks being hired understand that. Really, is that such a tough concept to understand?
    I think the concept that YOU are failing to understand is that YOUR department is violating federal labor laws. It's not a "cultural expectation", it's a violation of federal labor laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When it was talked about before YOU SAID your command staff EXPECTS the paid people to respond for free off duty.

    That's right. Our paid personnel have always responded off-duty, and yes, it's an cultural expectation that they will. Sorta like the cultural expectation that you will join the union and participate.

    YOU SAID your vollies would ostracize any paid guy who didn't "VOLUNTEER" to work for free off duty

    Those are your words, not mine. I said they would be a lot less likley to hang around the station and help him out. They will still roll on calls, but will do it from home in POV, which in some cases, is actually a more effective response. If you want to call that ostracize, that's fine, though to me it's a bit on the strong side.

    Guys who go beyond the minimum will be rewarded with gusy going beyond the minimum to help them.

    YOU SAID it would be looked on very unfavorably and maybe be grounds for disciplinary action

    Sure it will be viewed unfavorably as it is a cultural expectation. He may be passed over for specialized training in favor of another member of the paid staff who will respond off-dutyand because of that has the potential to use that skill more frequently. He may even be passed over for an active volunteer that makes more calls than he does on his shift, and because of that, may use the skill more frequently.

    But I never said it would be cause for disciplinary action. As I stated, the career member is not required to respond but we have a long standing history of an expectation he will respond. I guess it's how we gauge how much he cares about the jopb and the community. This also applies to classes taught and taken on his own time.


    Like I said earlier you need to take notes so you don't trip over your own keyboard trying to fabricate crap to cover other fabricated crap you fabricated.

    Quote me where I stated he would be disciplined.
    This is the reason unions were needed in the first place and why federal laws were passed to prevent employers from forcing employees from working for no pay. Fair pay for a days work.

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    With all due respect, I should be able to volunteer for my own department off-duty if I wish.

    Fact is, that ruling took my right away to do that. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.

    According to my department, it's not an issue.

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    I wouldn't paint city hall for free on my days off. I wouldn't sheet rock some one's house for free on my days off, and I'm not a professional painter or sheet rocker. However, I am a professional FF. So why I ask would I be expected to perform my profession for free? Don't get me wrong I love my time at work, but I went through way too much to get my dream job to be expected/required/forced into doing it without compensation.

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    Likewise LaFireEducator, with all respect due, if the employers in the past would not have abused the resource it would have never been an issue. I know many career fire fighters that volunteer when they are off, but I also know a department right now that is not filling captain positions because he wants to save money. The Chief requires his privates to fulfill the duties of company officer. If they are responsible enough to handle the work they should be paid accordingly. This is just one example of how the administration abuses it's power when left unchecked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    With all due respect, I should be able to volunteer for my own department off-duty if I wish.
    Why?

    Fact is, that ruling took my right away to do that. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.
    No, the fact is what that ruling did was protect millions of working class people from being exploited by their employers. This federal law didn't come about because somebody wanted to stop people from willingly "donating" extra time to their employer. It came about because people were being forced to work additional time at their jobs without being compensated for it.


    According to my department, it's not an issue.
    Well, the Department of Labor thinks differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    With all due respect, I should be able to volunteer for my own department off-duty if I wish.

    Fact is, that ruling took my right away to do that. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.

    According to my department, it's not an issue.
    Actually NO. It addresses a far broader issue. Suppose you are being paid to do a job. Some people volunteer to do the same job for free. You could be coerced or shamed into also working for free. Allowing such a practice leaves to much room for wrong doing. Suddenly, the employer has people volunteering instead of paying them OT. To prevent employees from being strong armed by their employer to volunteer for extra hours those clauses are written in. The way around it is to hire them on a Salary exempt status. Exempt employees can work 24X7 365.

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    Well, I guess I, as well as the other paid staff, simply have a different attitude on this.

    I guess we just have different view of the world which says that even off duty, you are still living in the community and have an obligation to respond when your community needs you. Yes, I am a professional, but to me that does not mean I alwways have to be paid for my services.

    I belong to a neighboring VFD and respond with them. Because I am a paid firefighter elsewhere, does that mean I am a "professional" and should not respond with them because I should be paid for my qualifications. How about the professional firefighters at other departments that volunteer with us?

    Does that mean the builder shouldn't donate his labor to building free homes or Little league dugouts because he is a professional? How about doctors or nurses at free clinics?

    Sure we could push the issue but nobody ever has. And if we did, we would all get a little fatter paycheck. But the cost would be less money on the table for PPE, training, equipment and travel. In fact, we as a department start out about 5K lower than just about any other area fire department or fire district, but nobody has ever pushed the issue for an increase in the base because we know it will hurt other areas of the operation. The admin sees that and is starting to address that with an increased incentive package, but we never have a shortage of folks, even from other higher paid neighboring fire districts, applying when there is an opening. The money is just not an issue with our members.

    Someone asked Why respond off-duty? Because it's the right thing to do, and reduces the need for hiring additional personnel, which is always a good thing. Responding off-duty has always been the norm and anyone hired understands that. And nobody has an issue with it. Some respond more and one or two respond less, but it's something we all do.

    Please tell exactly who we are hurting and who is profiting from our response, besides the citizens of course. You remember them ..... They are the ones that everyone likes to say we have sworn to protect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well, I guess I, as well as the other paid staff, simply have a different attitude on this.

    I guess we just have different view of the world which says that even off duty, you are still living in the community and have an obligation to respond when your community needs you. Yes, I am a professional, but to me that does not mean I alwways have to be paid for my services.

    I belong to a neighboring VFD and respond with them. Because I am a paid firefighter elsewhere, does that mean I am a "professional" and should not respond with them because I should be paid for my qualifications. How about the professional firefighters at other departments that volunteer with us?

    Does that mean the builder shouldn't donate his labor to building free homes or Little league dugouts because he is a professional? How about doctors or nurses at free clinics?

    Sure we could push the issue but nobody ever has. And if we did, we would all get a little fatter paycheck. But the cost would be less money on the table for PPE, training, equipment and travel. In fact, we as a department start out about 5K lower than just about any other area fire department or fire district, but nobody has ever pushed the issue for an increase in the base because we know it will hurt other areas of the operation. The admin sees that and is starting to address that with an increased incentive package, but we never have a shortage of folks, even from other higher paid neighboring fire districts, applying when there is an opening. The money is just not an issue with our members.

    Someone asked Why respond off-duty? Because it's the right thing to do, and reduces the need for hiring additional personnel, which is always a good thing. Responding off-duty has always been the norm and anyone hired understands that. And nobody has an issue with it. Some respond more and one or two respond less, but it's something we all do.

    Please tell exactly who we are hurting and who is profiting from our response, besides the citizens of course. You remember them ..... They are the ones that everyone likes to say we have sworn to protect.

    Understand that volunteering for a different department is totally different. The problem arises when you volunteer where you get paid. That sets up too many scenarios for abuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFbg View Post
    I wouldn't paint city hall for free on my days off. I wouldn't sheet rock some one's house for free on my days off, and I'm not a professional painter or sheet rocker. However, I am a professional FF. So why I ask would I be expected to perform my profession for free? Don't get me wrong I love my time at work, but I went through way too much to get my dream job to be expected/required/forced into doing it without compensation.
    What are you going to do when you smell smoke/see flames in your neighbors house? In your house? Call 911 and sit on your butt? Or do something? How about if the house is down the block?

    Flood waters rising and threating your station. You going to go in to help move the apparatus out, save the TO gear, etc? Or keep sitting expecting someone else will take care of it. Wait for IAFF to negotiate and agreement for ________, get a written order, then file for double time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well, I guess I, as well as the other paid staff, simply have a different attitude on this.

    I guess we just have different view of the world which says that even off duty, you are still living in the community and have an obligation to respond when your community needs you. Yes, I am a professional, but to me that does not mean I alwways have to be paid for my services.
    I think you are mixing issues here. There isn't a problem with wanting to help and I don't think anybody is criticizing you or your colleagues for wanting to do "more" for the community. The issue is simply that regardless of how you guys feel locally, it doesn't superceed the fact that federal labor law says that you CAN'T do that without being properly compensated while doing so.

    I belong to a neighboring VFD and respond with them. Because I am a paid firefighter elsewhere, does that mean I am a "professional" and should not respond with them because I should be paid for my qualifications. How about the professional firefighters at other departments that volunteer with us?
    No, because there is no federal labor law that prohibits volunteering time to an organization other than your employer.

    Does that mean the builder shouldn't donate his labor to building free homes or Little league dugouts because he is a professional? How about doctors or nurses at free clinics?
    These aren't the same things. As long as you aren't donating time to your employer, there aren't any problems.

    Please tell exactly who we are hurting and who is profiting from our response, besides the citizens of course. You remember them ..... They are the ones that everyone likes to say we have sworn to protect.
    You are hurting yourselves and your families, but if you're ok with that, then so be it. However, that isn't the true issue here. You're department is violating federal labor law and it really doesn't matter if you're ok with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    What are you going to do when you smell smoke/see flames in your neighbors house? In your house? Call 911 and sit on your butt? Or do something? How about if the house is down the block?
    This isn't the same thing. If the neighbor's house is on fire and I go over and knock on the door to alert them or provide some sort of assistance, then all I am doing is acting in a "civilian" capacity and helping my neighbor.

    Now, if the FD shows up and I throw on some TOG and start fighting the fire with them, then (legally) I have to be on the clock and paid for my time doing so.


    Flood waters rising and threating your station. You going to go in to help move the apparatus out, save the TO gear, etc? Or keep sitting expecting someone else will take care of it.
    Well, in my case, if we're in that situation, we will have already called in extra crews and the apparatus won't be in the station anyway, it'll be out running calls.

    You're also starting to confuse the issues some. There's a difference between moving some equipment around during a severe weather incident and routinely responding to calls while off-duty and not getting paid to do so.

    Wait for IAFF to negotiate and agreement for ________, get a written order, then file for double time.
    Great, another uninformed "hater".

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    You are hurting yourselves and your families, but if you're ok with that, then so be it

    Exactly how are we hurting ourselves and our families?

    By giving up 3 or 4 K a year in overtime that can instead be funnelled into training, PPE, equipment and volunteer incentives that makes our jobs safer? Seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.

    Again, the department feels this is not an issue. This is not a determination made by me. They are very well aware of the small city that had to pay 50K to each of it's full-time staff for a similar (not the same as there were a few key differences) policy a few years ago, and they still feel that this is not an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well, I guess I, as well as the other paid staff, simply have a different attitude on this.

    I guess we just have different view of the world which says that even off duty, you are still living in the community and have an obligation to respond when your community needs you. Yes, I am a professional, but to me that does not mean I alwways have to be paid for my services.

    I belong to a neighboring VFD and respond with them. Because I am a paid firefighter elsewhere, does that mean I am a "professional" and should not respond with them because I should be paid for my qualifications. How about the professional firefighters at other departments that volunteer with us?

    Does that mean the builder shouldn't donate his labor to building free homes or Little league dugouts because he is a professional? How about doctors or nurses at free clinics?

    Sure we could push the issue but nobody ever has. And if we did, we would all get a little fatter paycheck. But the cost would be less money on the table for PPE, training, equipment and travel. In fact, we as a department start out about 5K lower than just about any other area fire department or fire district, but nobody has ever pushed the issue for an increase in the base because we know it will hurt other areas of the operation. The admin sees that and is starting to address that with an increased incentive package, but we never have a shortage of folks, even from other higher paid neighboring fire districts, applying when there is an opening. The money is just not an issue with our members.

    Someone asked Why respond off-duty? Because it's the right thing to do, and reduces the need for hiring additional personnel, which is always a good thing. Responding off-duty has always been the norm and anyone hired understands that. And nobody has an issue with it. Some respond more and one or two respond less, but it's something we all do.

    Please tell exactly who we are hurting and who is profiting from our response, besides the citizens of course. You remember them ..... They are the ones that everyone likes to say we have sworn to protect.
    You do understand that once something is required of you it's no longer voluntary, but mandatory?

    I have never heard of a builder being required to build dugouts for the city baseball feild for free so he could keep his contractor's liscense. And there aren't any doctors that have to make rounds at free clinics to keep DHS off their backs.

    Volunteering is great, and I am a huge fan of it. However, being forced to work for free by a department that you are already paid to work for is not only wrong, but unethical.

    As for who is getting hurt by not having more paid personnel is simple. While on duty the baseline function of your working life is to roll out of bed, the dinner table, whatever it may be to come to someone's aid hands down no questions asked. A volunteer's pager may go off, and they can just ignore g-ma's cry for help and go on eating dinner with their family, mowing their yard, or sitting on their rump. But I'll bet money that when fire tones drop every volunteer in the county is driving 90 to get there. That's why it's called volunteering it's all voluntary.

    And don't you dare say I have forgotten who I work for. I care for every single person I come in contact with like they were my mom, dad, brother, sister, son, or daughter. And I only pray that you would treat my family the same way.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    With all due respect, I should be able to volunteer for my own department off-duty if I wish.

    Fact is, that ruling took my right away to do that. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.

    According to my department, it's not an issue.
    Your department is in violation of federal law. Violation of federal law= CRIMINALS...especially in light of your flaunting the "don't give a damn" attitude.

    And as for your tired anti-career schtick; quit, or STFU.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You are hurting yourselves and your families, but if you're ok with that, then so be it

    Exactly how are we hurting ourselves and our families?

    By giving up 3 or 4 K a year in overtime that can instead be funnelled into training, PPE, equipment and volunteer incentives that makes our jobs safer? Seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.
    So are you saying that you and your families couldn't benefit in any way from an additional "3 or 4 K a year" of income?

    I have no issue with your belief that trading OT pay for those other things is a "reasonable trade-off".

    Again, the department feels this is not an issue. This is not a determination made by me. They are very well aware of the small city that had to pay 50K to each of it's full-time staff for a similar (not the same as there were a few key differences) policy a few years ago, and they still feel that this is not an issue.
    Once again, it really doesn't matter how your department feels about this. The law is pretty clear that what your department does is illegal. If you guys choose to roll the dice on the issue, that's your choice.

  25. #50
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    Once again, it really doesn't matter how your department feels about this. The law is pretty clear that what your department does is illegal. If you guys choose to roll the dice on the issue, that's your choice.

    If they tell us to stop responding as volunteers tomorrow, that's fine. That would be the call of the command staff. Not me. And they have determined it's not an issue.

    If they started paying us, I would simply donate the overtime, less what I would have to pay in additional taxes, back to the department. Getting paid for responding off-duty is simply not right. It's part of the job here.

    So are you saying that you and your families couldn't benefit in any way from an additional "3 or 4 K a year" of income?


    Could I use it? Sure, but again, getting paid for responding of duty is not right. It creates two classes - one for the off-duty career guys receiving overtime and one for the volunteers receiving nothing except the points checks. Simply not right in our operation and will do nothing but divide the career staff and volunteers even more than being forced to adopt civil service for the career.

    You do understand that once something is required of you it's no longer voluntary, but mandatory?


    IMO there is a big difference between "required" and "expected". If you choose not to respond, fine, but don't expect a whole lot of help around the station from either the vollies or the other paid staff. There is no disciplinary action. It's a cultural expectation, not a "you shall respond off-duty" requirement.

    How many of you guys would isolate a firefighter at your station that chooses not to join the union? That it many places is not a requirement, but it certainly a cultural expectation, that will result in some consequences around the house if you decide not to join.

    I even say one post a while back that if a new member had an issue with horseplay, he'd be isolated. Damn petty if you ask me.

    As for who is getting hurt by not having more paid personnel is simple. While on duty the baseline function of your working life is to roll out of bed, the dinner table, whatever it may be to come to someone's aid hands down no questions asked. A volunteer's pager may go off, and they can just ignore g-ma's cry for help and go on eating dinner with their family, mowing their yard, or sitting on their rump. But I'll bet money that when fire tones drop every volunteer in the county is driving 90 to get there. That's why it's called volunteering it's all voluntary.


    So what you are implying, or outright stating is that the public is hurt by not having more career staffing because volunteers aren't dedicated enough to "roll out of bed" or "push themselves away from the dinner table"? As a 30 year volunteer that kind of thinking ****es me off to no end. I know thousands of volunteers that roll out of bed and leave the dinner table far more often than many career firefighters. Sorry to tell ya but having career staffing makes a department no better than a volunteer department. Your attitude sucks, and honestly, it's that attitude that often leads me wanting to have nothing to do with career firefighters, and why I consider myself simply "a volunteer with benefits" and not part of the career firefighting community.

    By the way, we average close to 20 volunteers per structure call, as well as an equally good response on other fires and MVAs. Our guys roll thier fat asses out of bed and push themselves away from the dinner table pretty often.

    There is really no point in debating this further. The department has no issue with it. And our career staff do not feel "forced" to respond, and they have no issue with it.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-02-2010 at 06:41 PM.

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