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Thread: SAFER is out.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    [B][B]Actually I have always had a bitter taste against unions. Each worker should be evaluated and compensated on his/her own performance and should be available to do whatever the employer needs done at that time. I simply do not beleive that they are needed, and do more harm than good.

    I have never had an issue with compensation or being dealt unreasonable work requests, and I have worked in several different fields.

    Our full-time staff respond off-duty because they want to. I guess it's because we have always hired from our volunteer pool and they understand why they should. I guess it's that whole brotherhood thing.


    I don't get the "everyone should be compensated differently" thing because that changes at the drop of a hat by whoever's brown-nosing the Chief that day. Not really looking out for your brothers and sisters by saying it's every man for himself. Having set standards (aka collective bargaining agreement) puts everyone on the same playing field and makes sure that everyone is treated equally in that aspect. Much more like a brotherhood than what you are proposing.


    Just wanted to throw in as well that, like it has been stated, volunteering your time with your employer on your off-time is illegal. You cannot elect to not be paid. We just had a department around here get busted for that and had to pay all sorts of fines for it. Your guys could probably set something up so that the time that they are "volunteering" is paid to them, but then the pay is donated back to the employer. There has to be a legal way around it. It's irresponsible to continue that sort of practice "because everyone else around here does it" when you know that your department can (and in all likelihood, will) be slapped with a huge fine and forced to pay out all of that back-pay anyways.


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    I don't get the "everyone should be compensated differently" thing because that changes at the drop of a hat by whoever's brown-nosing the Chief that day. Not really looking out for your brothers and sisters by saying it's every man for himself. Having set standards (aka collective bargaining agreement) puts everyone on the same playing field and makes sure that everyone is treated equally in that aspect. Much more like a brotherhood than what you are proposing.


    Was referring more to past jobs than current position with the FD.

    If the slacker next to me is doing less work, he should be paid less. If the guy on the other side of me is doing more work he should be paid more. That's capitalism. Paying everyone the same irregardless of performance is socialism.

    We are all paid the same, in that the base, incentive, longevity and rank pay is standard. Though we have not been civil service, we have been following their pay formula for a few years now. Now that we are going civil service, unfortunately, there will be no changes in our pay structure.

    The annual raise, which is usually 2-3% is determined by the Chief and given to all employees.

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    If somebody isn't pulling their weight around the station, you CONFRONT them about it. We're all adults here. You're around your co-workers more in this profession than in just about any other one out there. We say we're a family and a brotherhood, so how can you not talk to each other about this kind of stuff? And if it's that bad, go to your Officer about it and tell them. Rather than saying "well I do more than him so I should get paid more" make an effort to bring everyone up to par. These are the same people you'll have to trust with your life on scene, tell them to step it up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Frankly, why do you care? You are always on here spouting off about how your FD could go back to all volunteer, well, except for your position since it can no longer be done by volunteers. Which is amazing in itself since before you had it you always bragged about doing it as a volunteer.

    You really have an issue with this. I was perfectly happy accomplishing about 50% of my public education goals doing it as a volunteer. the department decided that they wanted me to accomplish more, and realized that this would not happen with me as a volunteer. They also decided that the Deputy Chief needed a chunk of the training burden taken off his shoulders. They asked me if I was interested. It was really that simple.

    The issue is your hypocrisy. Plain and simple. You have stated time and time and time again how your FD could go back to all volunteer and service wouldn't suffer. Yet YOUR POSITION simply can't be done by volunteers anymore becuase there is too much to do. I am calling a HUGE BS on that. Assign MORE vollies to do it then. Golly that was easy wasn't it? You will do whatever you need to to justify your position while stabbing the other paid firefighters not only in the back but in the heart too. Only a complete obstructionist fool would get in the way of hiring more full timers. That doesn't at all mean the destruction of the volunteer base. But knowing you and the absolute nonsense you spew I am sure you would see to trouble being brewed between the paid guys and the vollies.

    I was and still am proud of the pub ed programs that i ran as a volunteer here and back in VT. In fact, it was more comprehensive than many career departments.

    If you were to put on a SAFER grant the duties you would be assigning, and the fact that your paid guys are most often NOT first due, I wouldn't fund your grant request, if you made one, anyways. SAFER grants are for firefighters, not janitors and maintenance men.


    In fact, we did submit a SAFER request. I was tasked, along with the Asst. Chief to write it. I hope we don't get it as we really don't need it, and I know there are departments with much greater needs than ours.

    Great, the CHIEF of the department decides that he wants additional paid personnel and YOU decide you don't think it is needed. Who the Hell are you to question the Chief in that manner? If I heard you talking like that your duties for grant writing,or planning,or anything to do with implementation of new policy would be stripped from you. I certainly don't need some clown writing grants for things I believe we need hoping we don't get the grant.

    And just so we set things right, all paid staff, including myself when not committed to a public education program or task, are first due for all structure fires, brush fires on high-hazard days, technical rescues, selected EMS calls and significant MVAs. Other EMS calls, car fires and other emergencies depend on the number of volunteers available and the possible severity of the incident. It's amazing how well the system works as it allows our volunteers to do what they signed up for - make runs and manage scenes. It really bothers you that our volunteers are as capable, if not more in some cases, of handling most of our runs as our paid staff? I think it bothers you more that the paid staff's function is to support the volunteers. I really don't understand why that is such as issue, but so be it.

    Here is another example of you changing your story once again. You have stated over and over that if you have enough vollies on hand you will not have the paid guy respond so he can stay on task. How many times are you going to change this story?

    It doesn't bother me at all that you say you have good vollies. I would put the best vollies on my FD up against almost anyone, firefighting and extrication wise.

    No what bothers me is your absolute HATRED for paid firefighters. Well, other than your self the hypocrite. In your mind most paid firefighters everywhere could be replaced with volunteers and that is simply delusional. Obviously all the tasks your FD needs done weren't getting done with the volunteer staff, including yours. Now that is funny, the efficient volunteer couldn't get his task done as a volly so a paid position had to be created for him to be able to do it. Funnier still he couldn't get his Pub Ed done as a volly, BUT he could add aditional duties to his job as a paid guy. Things that make you go hmmmmmm...


    Maybe if you hired people instead of forcing "volunteer unpaid overtime because that is what we expect of our guys" on others, and had a union to look out for the firefighters to prevent that kind of abuse, you wouldn't have such a bitter taste in your mouth against unions.

    Actually I have always had a bitter taste against unions. Each worker should be evaluated and compensated on his/her own performance and should be available to do whatever the employer needs done at that time. I simply do not beleive that they are needed, and do more harm than good.

    I have never had an issue with compensation or being dealt unreasonable work requests, and I have worked in several different fields.

    Our full-time staff respond off-duty because they want to. I guess it's because we have always hired from our volunteer pool and they understand why they should. I guess it's that whole brotherhood thing.

    Your paid guys volunteer off duty because of the implied threat YOU MADE RIGHT HERE ON FH.COM. You stated flat out they would be ostracized, not get help from the vollies, and would be looked upon negatively by the officers, to the point of discipline. You have been told enough times here it is illegal and someday one of your paid guys is going to tell your chief no way am I coming in for free anymore and he is going to be punished or fired and your FD will lose their *** in court when it all comes out. The back pay and fines will be a major burden to your FD.

    Brotherhood? You haven't got a clue about that. if you did you would have no part of extorting your paid guys to work for free.
    You sir,are a hypocrite and on top of that have changed your story once again. Maybe you should take notes so you can keep your fabrications straight.
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    The issue is your hypocrisy. Plain and simple. You have stated time and time and time again how your FD could go back to all volunteer and service wouldn't suffer. Yet YOUR POSITION simply can't be done by volunteers anymore becuase there is too much to do. I am calling a HUGE BS on that. Assign MORE vollies to do it then. Golly that was easy wasn't it? You will do whatever you need to to justify your position while stabbing the other paid firefighters not only in the back but in the heart too. Only a complete obstructionist fool would get in the way of hiring more full timers. That doesn't at all mean the destruction of the volunteer base. But knowing you and the absolute nonsense you spew I am sure you would see to trouble being brewed between the paid guys and the vollies.

    Don't need to justify my job to you. The Chief and command staff decided that my position was needed. They asked me to take it. If they told me tommarrow that they changed thier minds, that would be fine. I would simply go back to my EMS gig and do pubed for the department on the side again.

    Simply put, there weren't any volunteers that wanted to do public education, besides myself.

    So only a fool would get in the way of hiring more folks? GHiring folks is the utopia? It's the model where everyone should be? No, you're the fool for drinking the union kool-aid that says full-timers are needed to deliver the highest quality of services. I find it tough to beleive that you are a volunteer as well and can support hiring uneeded personnel.

    Fact is the more paid staff there is, the less incentive there will be for the vollies to show up on the minor calls as they will have less to do. Sorry, but that is begginning of the destruction of the volunteer base.

    And exactly where did I stab anyone?

    And where did I say I want trouble between the paid staff and volunteer staff?


    Great, the CHIEF of the department decides that he wants additional paid personnel and YOU decide you don't think it is needed. Who the Hell are you to question the Chief in that manner? If I heard you talking like that your duties for grant writing,or planning,or anything to do with implementation of new policy would be stripped from you. I certainly don't need some clown writing grants for things I believe we need hoping we don't get the grant.

    Tough to beleive but our chief understands that there will be members who disagree with him. He also understands that members can disagree and will still do thier job. While the grant would be nice, we are in a position to very comfortably hire staff without the grant. There are departments that may require FT staff that are not in our position. It would be much more fair if they recieved the money.

    By the way, I have a problem with SAFER in general. IMO all funding for fire staffing should be generated locally. Folks in Podunk LA should not be paying for staffing in Shreveport or Cincy.


    No what bothers me is your absolute HATRED for paid firefighters. Well, other than your self the hypocrite. In your mind most paid firefighters everywhere could be replaced with volunteers and that is simply delusional. Obviously all the tasks your FD needs done weren't getting done with the volunteer staff, including yours. Now that is funny, the efficient volunteer couldn't get his task done as a volly so a paid position had to be created for him to be able to do it. Funnier still he couldn't get his Pub Ed done as a volly, BUT he could add aditional duties to his job as a paid guy. Things that make you go hmmmmmm...

    Ya, I hate all career firefighters.

    In my mind a reasonable number of paid staff could be replaced with volunteer or call personnel if they were properly recruited, motivated, and trained, and realistic incentives were put in place that would assist with both recruitment and retention. In many places there are simply too many paid firefighters waiting around to respond to an infrequent manpower intensive event. A core staff of paid personnel with a trained and motivated call staff, who do receieve a set of incentives for thier service is a model that could work in many places with limited career staffs. As much as the union hates to hear that.

    I see unionized firefighters coming into places and doing what they can to drive off vollies so they can now justify additional hiring using the "lack of manpower" caused by the vollies leaving. It's happened where I came from and where I am now. I even dealt with career firefighters attempting to inflitrate paid personnel into one of my past well functioning VFDs.

    I understand there are places that require a 100& career FD. I understand there are places that require a primary career FD, either due to demographics, run volume orr specialized training, such as large refinaries.

    But I also understand there are places that can lay off firefighters and reduce thier career staffing, and replace them with volunteer personnel. In fact, given the funding situation, in many places, they will have no options and will have to layoff staff.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-01-2010 at 01:04 PM.

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    Your paid guys volunteer off duty because of the implied threat YOU MADE RIGHT HERE ON FH.COM. You stated flat out they would be ostracized, not get help from the vollies, and would be looked upon negatively by the officers, to the point of discipline. You have been told enough times here it is illegal and someday one of your paid guys is going to tell your chief no way am I coming in for free anymore and he is going to be punished or fired and your FD will lose their *** in court when it all comes out. The back pay and fines will be a major burden to your FD.

    Brotherhood? You haven't got a clue about that. if you did you would have no part of extorting your paid guys to work for free.


    A threat?

    I stated that if they didn't help out the volunteers, and thier brother working the shift, they may not get much help in return. It's always been that way here, and it's always worked.

    I guess to me that's not a threat. But if you want help, ya have to give help in return. Same thing if I askk for a little help around my house and you say no. Don't ask me for help cause ya ain't gonna get it.

    Each paid man has the choice if they want to respond on thier off-time. Every paid man we ever had has responded on thier off-time. I guess that is what you call a tradition, and you are always agrueing that readition in the fire service is a good thing, right?

    You seem to have a lot of problems with how we do business. career staff supporting vollies. Vollies being the primary responders. Paid staff helping out when they are off. You would probably even have an issue with our volunteer chief and officers supervising paid staff. Oh well, it works for us and that is really all that matters.

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    Posted by LA
    I see unionized firefighters coming into places and doing what they can to drive off vollies so they can now justify additional hiring using the "lack of manpower" caused by the vollies leaving. It's happened where I came from and where I am now. I even dealt with career firefighters attempting to inflitrate paid personnel into one of my past well functioning VFDs.
    Wow... in earlier posts by you, there is lamentation of the fact that career firefighters who live in your district do not volunteer with your FD... now they are attempting to "infiltrate"?

    Good god man... get your excremental matter together. You have spun your tales more times than a set of tires at a Nascar race.
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    No, La, you missed the point, and that is no surprise.

    It is ILLEGAL for paid firefighters to volunteer back to the same department they are PAID to work for. You may not like it, but it is the law. Just because no on has pressed the issue doesn't mean that tomorrow someone won't say enough is enough and report you.

    The difference between your assinine if you don't help me I won't help you BS is you are demanding paid people work for free or they will face being ostracized. Tell your super vollies to go over to that paid guy's house, who came in for free, and do whatever he does for a living for free. You know install central air for free, tune up his car for free, roof his house for free, replace your toilet for free, EVERYTIME the paid guy needs something one of the super vollies should do whatever he does for a living for him for free since you are saying the paid guy has to do what he does for the vollies for free or he isn't a Brother. NOW DO YOU SEE HOW IDIOTIC THAT SOUNDS?

    The reality is I don't give 2 turds to Sheboygan what your podunk Fd does, you can break all the federal labor laws you want. Eventually it will bite you in the ***. My problem come in with you believing what you do is right for EVERYONE when in fact it is illegal where you are. If you would shut up about it and just do what you do instead of pontificating to the rest of the world no one would say anything about it. But, it appears you enjoy getting slapped around on here...
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    Wow... in earlier posts by you, there is lamentation of the fact that career firefighters who live in your district do not volunteer with your FD... now they are attempting to "infiltrate"?

    If you note, that was reference to another department I was on, where the union attempted to convince the citizens that our VFD "needed" career personnel, even though they (the citizens) had no problems with the services we were delivering.

    Here is the exact quote. Good god man, please read, then type.

    I even dealt with career firefighters attempting to inflitrate paid personnel into one of my past well functioning VFDs.

    They did what they could do to get the citizens to demand that we hire personnel. it didn't work. And the department is still all-volunteer to this day.

    And yes, I do have an issue with career personnel who don't volunteer in the districts in which they live on thier off-time. Not only do I respond as volunteer here on my off-time, but I also volunteer in an adjoining district, where I don't even live, as well.

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    The reality is I don't give 2 turds to Sheboygan what your podunk Fd does, you can break all the federal labor laws you want. Eventually it will bite you in the ***. My problem come in with you believing what you do is right for EVERYONE when in fact it is illegal where you are. If you would shut up about it and just do what you do instead of pontificating to the rest of the world no one would say anything about it. But, it appears you enjoy getting slapped around on here...

    Never said our career staff responding on thier off-hours was right for anyone. It works for us. The department command staff does not see an issue with it. The career staff does not see an issue with it.

    Not allowing paid staff to respond on thier off time if they wish is simply wrong. Flat out wrong. Last I knew volunteering was a damn right.

    Thios is a completly different issue from believing that many departments could layoff career personnel and replace them with trained, motivated and compensated (through incentive packages) volunteersm, which is what this thread is about.

    The difference between your assinine if you don't help me I won't help you BS is you are demanding paid people work for free or they will face being ostracized. Tell your super vollies to go over to that paid guy's house, who came in for free, and do whatever he does for a living for free. You know install central air for free, tune up his car for free, roof his house for free, replace your toilet for free, EVERYTIME the paid guy needs something one of the super vollies should do whatever he does for a living for him for free since you are saying the paid guy has

    Actually, not the same thing at all.

    Nobody ever demanded anyone respond off-duty. I guess you just don't get that our career staff wants to respond when off duty and available. They like what they do and they have no issue doing it beyond the paycheck. It's the way we have always operated and the folks being hired understand that. Really, is that such a tough concept to understand?

    You seem to be the one hung up on this concept.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-01-2010 at 02:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Nobody ever demanded anyone respond off-duty. I guess you just don't get that our career staff wants to respond when off duty and available. They like what they do and they have no issue doing it beyond the paycheck. It's the way we have always operated and the folks being hired understand that. Really, is that such a tough concept to understand?

    You seem to be the one hung up on this concept.
    I am calling you on this change in your story. In fact I will go as far as to say what you are saying now is a complete LIE compared to what you said months ago on this very same subject. You have now fabricated this happy, happy, joy, joy, we want to work for free scenario. When it was talked about before YOU SAID your command staff EXPECTS the paid people to respond for free off duty. YOU SAID your vollies would ostracize any paid guy who didn't "VOLUNTEER" to work for free off duty. YOU SAID it would be looked on very unfavorably and maybe be grounds for disciplinary action. Like I said earlier you need to take notes so you don't trip over your own keyboard trying to fabricate crap to cover other fabricated crap you fabricated.

    Tell me how your vollies expecting a paid firefighter to break federal law and volunteer for free to the place he gets a paycheck from is any different than that same paid firefighter expecting that volly to supply him with whatever serivces the volly supplies in his career to that paid firefighter for free? It really is EXACTLY the same, the volly will ostracize the paid guy for not working his career for free but the volly owes no similar services to the career firefighter? Talk about hypocrisy...seems to be a common thread in most of your posts anyways so I am not all that surprised.

    By the way it doesn't matter that your FD or your paid guys or your parish council or anyone is okay with this, federal law supercedes your being okay with it.
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    When it was talked about before YOU SAID your command staff EXPECTS the paid people to respond for free off duty.

    That's right. Our paid personnel have always responded off-duty, and yes, it's an cultural expectation that they will. Sorta like the cultural expectation that you will join the union and participate.

    YOU SAID your vollies would ostracize any paid guy who didn't "VOLUNTEER" to work for free off duty

    Those are your words, not mine. I said they would be a lot less likley to hang around the station and help him out. They will still roll on calls, but will do it from home in POV, which in some cases, is actually a more effective response. If you want to call that ostracize, that's fine, though to me it's a bit on the strong side.

    Guys who go beyond the minimum will be rewarded with gusy going beyond the minimum to help them.

    YOU SAID it would be looked on very unfavorably and maybe be grounds for disciplinary action

    Sure it will be viewed unfavorably as it is a cultural expectation. He may be passed over for specialized training in favor of another member of the paid staff who will respond off-dutyand because of that has the potential to use that skill more frequently. He may even be passed over for an active volunteer that makes more calls than he does on his shift, and because of that, may use the skill more frequently.

    But I never said it would be cause for disciplinary action. As I stated, the career member is not required to respond but we have a long standing history of an expectation he will respond. I guess it's how we gauge how much he cares about the jopb and the community. This also applies to classes taught and taken on his own time.


    Like I said earlier you need to take notes so you don't trip over your own keyboard trying to fabricate crap to cover other fabricated crap you fabricated.

    Quote me where I stated he would be disciplined.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-01-2010 at 03:42 PM.

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    LA,

    Paint it however you want. Like I said previously, do as you wish. Eventually one of your paid guys is going to have had enough and then we will see what the feds have to say.

    If I cared enough I could go back and find the other topic where you said ostracized and disciplined regarding this. You said it, and that is that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Nobody ever demanded anyone respond off-duty. I guess you just don't get that our career staff wants to respond when off duty and available. They like what they do and they have no issue doing it beyond the paycheck. It's the way we have always operated and the folks being hired understand that. Really, is that such a tough concept to understand?
    I think the concept that YOU are failing to understand is that YOUR department is violating federal labor laws. It's not a "cultural expectation", it's a violation of federal labor laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When it was talked about before YOU SAID your command staff EXPECTS the paid people to respond for free off duty.

    That's right. Our paid personnel have always responded off-duty, and yes, it's an cultural expectation that they will. Sorta like the cultural expectation that you will join the union and participate.

    YOU SAID your vollies would ostracize any paid guy who didn't "VOLUNTEER" to work for free off duty

    Those are your words, not mine. I said they would be a lot less likley to hang around the station and help him out. They will still roll on calls, but will do it from home in POV, which in some cases, is actually a more effective response. If you want to call that ostracize, that's fine, though to me it's a bit on the strong side.

    Guys who go beyond the minimum will be rewarded with gusy going beyond the minimum to help them.

    YOU SAID it would be looked on very unfavorably and maybe be grounds for disciplinary action

    Sure it will be viewed unfavorably as it is a cultural expectation. He may be passed over for specialized training in favor of another member of the paid staff who will respond off-dutyand because of that has the potential to use that skill more frequently. He may even be passed over for an active volunteer that makes more calls than he does on his shift, and because of that, may use the skill more frequently.

    But I never said it would be cause for disciplinary action. As I stated, the career member is not required to respond but we have a long standing history of an expectation he will respond. I guess it's how we gauge how much he cares about the jopb and the community. This also applies to classes taught and taken on his own time.


    Like I said earlier you need to take notes so you don't trip over your own keyboard trying to fabricate crap to cover other fabricated crap you fabricated.

    Quote me where I stated he would be disciplined.
    This is the reason unions were needed in the first place and why federal laws were passed to prevent employers from forcing employees from working for no pay. Fair pay for a days work.

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    With all due respect, I should be able to volunteer for my own department off-duty if I wish.

    Fact is, that ruling took my right away to do that. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.

    According to my department, it's not an issue.

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    I wouldn't paint city hall for free on my days off. I wouldn't sheet rock some one's house for free on my days off, and I'm not a professional painter or sheet rocker. However, I am a professional FF. So why I ask would I be expected to perform my profession for free? Don't get me wrong I love my time at work, but I went through way too much to get my dream job to be expected/required/forced into doing it without compensation.

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    Likewise LaFireEducator, with all respect due, if the employers in the past would not have abused the resource it would have never been an issue. I know many career fire fighters that volunteer when they are off, but I also know a department right now that is not filling captain positions because he wants to save money. The Chief requires his privates to fulfill the duties of company officer. If they are responsible enough to handle the work they should be paid accordingly. This is just one example of how the administration abuses it's power when left unchecked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    With all due respect, I should be able to volunteer for my own department off-duty if I wish.
    Why?

    Fact is, that ruling took my right away to do that. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.
    No, the fact is what that ruling did was protect millions of working class people from being exploited by their employers. This federal law didn't come about because somebody wanted to stop people from willingly "donating" extra time to their employer. It came about because people were being forced to work additional time at their jobs without being compensated for it.


    According to my department, it's not an issue.
    Well, the Department of Labor thinks differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    With all due respect, I should be able to volunteer for my own department off-duty if I wish.

    Fact is, that ruling took my right away to do that. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.

    According to my department, it's not an issue.
    Actually NO. It addresses a far broader issue. Suppose you are being paid to do a job. Some people volunteer to do the same job for free. You could be coerced or shamed into also working for free. Allowing such a practice leaves to much room for wrong doing. Suddenly, the employer has people volunteering instead of paying them OT. To prevent employees from being strong armed by their employer to volunteer for extra hours those clauses are written in. The way around it is to hire them on a Salary exempt status. Exempt employees can work 24X7 365.

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