04-03-2010, 05:54 PM #1
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
Waterous CAFS using ICS controller and Advantus 6
Is anybody using a Waterous CAFS system with ICS (Intelligent CAF Selector) controllers and the Advantus 6 foam system? If so, how do you like them? Is anybody familiar with programming the ICS controllers? Iím interested in how the correct ratio is set for the three different CAFS modes (WET, MED, DRY). How reliable are the controllers and the Advantus 6 foam system? Also, would the 6gpm foam system be sufficient when using Class B foam without CAFS and flowing 1000gpm of water? I donít have much knowledge of using Class B foam. Thanks.
04-06-2010, 04:48 PM #2
Don't have much experience with class B foam applications, but class B concentrate is usually mixed somewhere between 3.0%-6.0% ratio, so your example of 1000 GPM water flow would require 30-60 GPM of foam concentrate. The 6 GPM foam system you mentioned will only be adding concentrate at roughly 0.6% ratio at 1000 GPM water flow, which is far below the foam manufacturers recommended application rate, and most likely won't allow your foam solution to work as intended. Big water class B foam applications take HUGE foam proportioners (often hydraulic driven), or in many cases use eductor type systems.
Class A foam concentrate is normally mixed at 0.1%-1.0% (0.3% for CAFS) so at a 1,000 GPM water flow, concentrate flow is 1-10 GPM (3 gpm for CAFS). Much lower concentrate level required and thus a much smaller capacity foam pump needed.
Don't have any experience with Waterous foam proportioner, but we have a Waterous 200CFM CAFS system with a Foam Pro proportioner. No automatic controls. The Waterous CAFS system has been great so far (brand new though) and have used Foam Pro proportioners for some time, never had any issues with them either. That type of equipment has come a long way as far as reliability and user friendliness goes.
04-06-2010, 07:59 PM #3
We have a Waterous Eclipse Cafs system that is ten years old on our newest engine. So far it has worked flawlessly with only normal maintenance ,[changing compressor oil & filter, replaced the drive belt once]. It is a 1000 gpm pump/200cfm compressor with foampro 2000. It makes great wet or dry CAFS with little effort.
The newer systems have better controllers and the advantus pump is supposed to last longer.
It won't do Class "B". wasn't designed to.
04-07-2010, 10:41 AM #4
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
- Rural Iowa
Our new pumper tanker has a Waterous CAFS system. Installed Mar 2009 by Feld Fire Equipment. 140cfm PTO compressor, Aquis 2.5 foam pump, Elkhart ICS controllers.
This was a retrofit to a demo Frtliner M2 3000gal tanker (ALF). Class1 pump module with 1000gpm Hale QFlo pump. Extended the front bumper 24" with center hose tray for donut rools. 2-1/2" CAFS plumbed to left side bumper to a swivel elbow with gated wye. ICS on pump panel 2-1/2" CAFS to right bumper with removeable Elkhart Sidewinder monitor (can remove monitor and attach hose line). ICS in cab with Sidewinder joystick. Also plumbed Cl A (not CFS) to 2x crosslays. Everything has been painless and worked great.
The ICS is a great piece of kit. Big improvement in simplfying CAFS. Set up
1.) Engage pump (which engages compressor)
2.) Open Tank to pump
3.) Throw switch for air balancer.
4.) Pressure model on governor (Class 1 Captain) defaults to 100psi
5.) Open an ICS valve and it operates the water and air valves and balances. PHD (push here dummy). Default ICS is 100% open dry. adjust as appropriate with push button on close valve
6.) Adjust foam % at foam pump controls if required. Defaults to dry at .3%. We have hard water so may reprogram to .5%.
7.) Adjust foam % if need for optimal foam quality (water temp and hardness).
We purchased for CAFS (Class A foam) and is what we use it for.
CAFS/air has no utility for Cl B. CAFS and Cl B are totally seperate function and operation. My advice would be keep seperate.
Unless you're going to install a BIG foam tank for your Ar-Afff you're not going to get much work done wioth 30gal. And will be expensive to add to the truck. Tank, plumbing and BIG foam pump. You get into a scenario where you really need Cl B and you're hardly going to get started with typical 30gal Cl B tank and you're going to immedately be on top trying refilling the Cl B tank.
I suggest for typical FD educt Cl B straight from pails (or drums). Sealed Cl B containers will no degrade (turn to snot). A Foammidget around the pump eductor would be a good way to go (around $2300) for large volume/multiple hand lines. Or monitor mounted selfeducting nozzle (as Akron Akrofoam 4475 at arround $900). Or plain old in-line eductor. Or for car fire/cleanup one of the Scotty applicators in 3%.
Ray Frey at Waterous AZ can tell you anything you want to know. Greg Geske Waterous MN is on this site pretty often, same deal.
PM me if you want.
04-09-2010, 10:33 AM #5
- Join Date
- Jan 2000
We took delivery of a truck last year with the ICS control heads. The truck features a Waterous Eclipse 200 cfm with FoamPro proportioner. We are completely satisfied with the function of the ICS control heads as well as their ability to be adjusted for personal preference for wet/dry/med settings.
04-13-2010, 11:10 AM #6
- Join Date
- Jan 2001
- Madison, NJ USA
We took delivery of our Eclipse in the beginning of 08. It has worked and perform very well for us. I do not have the ICS control head on our CAFS engine because they were not available at the time we were specing tne engine. However I did get the Elkhart electric control heads which are similar and we are pleased with them.
I have played with both Advantus 6 and the ICS control head that you are asking about. The Advantus 6 works very well. Here is the flow chart for the Advantus 3 and 6. You can see that the ADV 6 can keep up with 6% injection rate with a maximum gpm flow rate of 100. If you use more
Flow capabilities 3.0 gpm 6.0 gpm
Actual flows are variable based on true conductivity
Foam % 3.0 gpm 6.0 gpm
0.3% 1000 2000
0.5% 600 1200
1.0% 300 600
3.0% 100 200
6.0% 50 100
I would not recommend an on board "B" tank. What I would suggest is a Dual Tank valve setup and have the "B" selector plumbed to an auxiliary off board pickup connection. This way you just select "B" on the dual tank valve and connect the pickup tube, drop it in a bucket or tub of concentrate, prime the foam pump and you are all set for "B" ops. I would not put a second or ""B" tank on the truck as you can never carry enough "B" concentrate for a true "B" type of incident. And you virtually eliminate the cross contamination issue without having 2 foam tanks with different concentrates in each.
The ICS control heads that I have played with are really nice and do work great. They automatically adjust the water valve to a predetermined set point (that you set) and automatically open the the air solenoid to inject air. You the end user set exactly what you desire for WET, MED, and DRY finished foam. They are pretty simple to setup. When you press the CAFS ON button it defaults to WET CAFS, which is what we use 99% of the time. The other nice feature of the ICS control head is the pump operator can make manual adjustments as needed.
With an Eclipse CAFSystem you can set it up for a 2 button operation at the pump panel by doing the following:
1. Leave the Tank to Pump open
2. Leave the Tank Fill cracked open
3. Leave the Air Compressor Clutch toggle switch on
4. Leave the Auto-Sync switch in RUN
5. Have the Avdantus wired to come ON when the fire pump is engaged
6. Get a pressure governor and Preset the it 100Psi
7. Utilize the presets on the ICS control head
By doing all of the above the sequence of operation for CAFS on an Eclipse engine would be:
1. Engage the fire pump
2. Press the "PRESET" on the Pressure Governor
3. Press the "CAFS ON" button on the line to be used once deployed
That is it. 3 very easy steps. It works.
Hope this Helps
04-15-2010, 07:51 PM #7
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
Do you know what the differences are between the ICS and the Elkhart electric control heads? I thought Elkhart made the ICS for Waterous. Are you using an Auto Water Tank Fill? If so, how is it plumbed? I was told you can "T" the auto tank fill off of the Waterous Monarch Intake Valves pressure relief port on the steamers and other intakes. Then from this port you can go through the Auto Tank Fill valve directly into the tank or manifold more than one of these ports together before the ATF valve. We are thinking of manifolding the ports from the rear LDH intake and right side steamer together. My only concern, will the intake pressure relief valve be affected by doing this? Also, what size plumbing are you using for the Pump to Tank and Tank to Pump lines?
04-15-2010, 09:03 PM #8
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Bryn Athyn, Pa.
Our tank to pump is 4" with a 3-1/2" Waterous tank to pump valve. Our auto tank fill is 2" with a 2-1/2" Waterous electric full flow valve. The manual tank fill is also 2" and teed into a common fill port. It has a Waterous 2-1/2" standard flow valve, rack & sector operation.
An operational word of caution: When using the CAFS compressor, only crack the tank fill valve enough to know you have water circulating. If you open the tank fill all the way all of the water will flow through the fill line and little or none will flow through the heat exchanger that cools the compressor oil. The result will be a compressor overheat condition.
04-15-2010, 10:09 PM #9
- Join Date
- Jan 2001
- Madison, NJ USA
You are correct that Elkhart makes the ICS valve control head (exclusively) for Waterous. As for the difference between the two, it is the control head itself. The UNI-Body water valve is the same. The standard Elkhart electric control head has a single, preset button with manual open/close buttons and only controls the water valve. The ICS control head was designed specifically for a CAFS discharge. It has 3 (three) separate presets for WET, MED, and DRY CAFS. The ICS also controls the air injection. And you also have manual control over the water and/or air. Like I said the ICS control head was designed specifically for CAFS discharges. I have played with a few of them and they are very, very nice.
As for the Auto-Fill, yes I do have them on both my CAFS units. I would strongly recommend that anyone who is specing or has a CAFSystem to incorporate an Auto-Fill system as it eliminates the issues associated with high intake pressure and CAFS.
Mine is plumbed as ChiefEngineer11 describes except I use 3 inch plumping on mine. I did utilize what I call an "Intake Manifold" so no matter which intake i connect to it is plumbed to my Auto-Fill Valve. If you do utilize an "Intake Manifold" setup you need to have a check valve installed in the piping at each connection, where it is "T'd", to prevent water from flowing from one intake to another. But it works good. And as ChiefEngineer11 stated, it does not effect the intake relief valves operation.
Hope this helps.
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