1. #1
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    Default Does filing purely as "fire" and "rescue" hurt your chances?

    I have a neighboring department that's set up as an umbrella organization to operate two divisions:

    1) A taxpayer-funded, county-chartered fire division.
    2) A donation-funded, 501(c)(3) rescue division.

    My suggestion to them is that assuming separateness can be proven, to file four applications: equipment/vehicle for fire, equipment/vehicle for rescue.

    But is anyone aware of any AFG rule that would prevent this? And can anyone give me any insight as to how doing so would affect award probability? (Obviously the various statistics would have to be parsed out to each separate division--call volumes, etc.)

    Thanks...

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    If you read the PG, you'll find even if you are seperate on paper, if you share manpower, quarters, and/or equipment, you are considered a single agency.

    Just a couple of years into the program, a department near me recieved their second award for an engine, using the mentality that their city and rural departments were seperate. Fortunately for them, AFG caught on quick enough and let them know that despite what the grant writer told them, they were indeed considered one department. The grant was subsequently pulled.

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    You put your finger right on it, Catch--I'm aware of that guidance language (and I've posted it below.)

    The reason this confuses me is that I had a long conversation with an AFG official last spring about exactly the county-department-operating-a-municipal-department issue you describe, and was told that the county was eligible to submit on behalf of itself AND its municipality.

    That said, I hadn't heard that FEMA is pulling awards in such situations.

    I'm going to re-check this issue through an AFG rep I deal with, and I'll update the board when I've learned more.

    ---

    Here's that 2009 guidance quote:

    "For the purposes of these grants, we consider two or more separate fire departments or nonaffiliated EMS organizations that share facilities as being one organization. This determination is designed to avoid duplication of benefits. For example, it would not be cost-beneficial to purchase two firefighting vehicles for two fire departments that share a facility to serve the same community when so many other communities need new apparatus; nor would it be cost-beneficial to buy two sets of equipment for the same firefighters. We believe that two or more organizations that share facilities should be able to satisfy all of their operational needs with one program area application. Thus, if two or more organizations that share facilities each submit an application in the same program area, we will deem all of those program area applications as ineligible."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GratefulEd View Post
    You put your finger right on it, Catch--I'm aware of that guidance language (and I've posted it below.)

    The reason this confuses me is that I had a long conversation with an AFG official last spring about exactly the county-department-operating-a-municipal-department issue you describe, and was told that the county was eligible to submit on behalf of itself AND its municipality.

    That said, I hadn't heard that FEMA is pulling awards in such situations.

    I'm going to re-check this issue through an AFG rep I deal with, and I'll update the board when I've learned more.
    From the PG as well:

    Fire stations that are not independent entities, but are part of, controlled by, or under the day-to-day operational direction of a larger fire department or agency are not eligible for funding.

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    If they were in separate buildings and did not share anything other than people then it's two organizations because they have different missions. The FD couldn't give any financial help to the rescue division either in order for them to be separated in AFG land.

    Having the same people doesn't matter because lots of places have separate EMS and Fire and some serve on both. As long as the business filings and financials are separate then they're separate too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GratefulEd View Post
    You put your finger right on it, Catch--I'm aware of that guidance language (and I've posted it below.)

    The reason this confuses me is that I had a long conversation with an AFG official last spring about exactly the county-department-operating-a-municipal-department issue you describe, and was told that the county was eligible to submit on behalf of itself AND its municipality.

    That said, I hadn't heard that FEMA is pulling awards in such situations.

    "
    I know of one situation in Missouri - intimate knowledge - of a department about 120 miles
    from me, getting equipment pulled for this kind of situation. Rural department and a city department in the same building, same volunteers, etc. I understand the engine they had made it to a tornado ravaged town in Kansas.

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    Was a few years ago but a county in GA had each station apply for apparatus claiming independent entities. Think 1 truck was delivered, 3 in production, 4 more awarded. Can't remember if they got to keep 1 or all got pulled. Was 2003 or 2004.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GratefulEd View Post
    You put your finger right on it, Catch--I'm aware of that guidance language (and I've posted it below.)

    The reason this confuses me is that I had a long conversation with an AFG official last spring about exactly the county-department-operating-a-municipal-department issue you describe, and was told that the county was eligible to submit on behalf of itself AND its municipality.

    That said, I hadn't heard that FEMA is pulling awards in such situations.

    I'm going to re-check this issue through an AFG rep I deal with, and I'll update the board when I've learned more.
    Without putting words into his mouth or reading too much into what he said, I would imagine he was talking that they could put in for both, but not each, if that makes sense. Basically, the county is running the city department and the county can put in one application for the combined department. However, the city cannot put in an application so long as the county does.

    When we were still an association, we were pretty much the opposite. The city ran the department, and the rural contracted with the city. We always applied under the city department and that application covered both departments, as we shared manpower, equipment, and facilities. We were only seperated on paper.

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    Correct, the single application would cover both organizations in said case. We've done that many a time in the rural/city setting in the midwest. One app for both "departments". If a county owns all the FDs within the area, it can apply for county needs and an individual station as their two apps. So they could do equipment for all and one truck for one station, then rotate it year to year. But no one under the county could apply on their own at that point.

    Now if the rescue had a separate EIN, separate money, then it is two organizations. That was the determination when a separately formed EMS agency has an ambulance parked in the fire station because it's the most economical way to put a unit in an area versus building a whole new building. As long as none of the money is shared agencies with differing purposes can apply on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Now if the rescue had a separate EIN, separate money, then it is two organizations. That was the determination when a separately formed EMS agency has an ambulance parked in the fire station because it's the most economical way to put a unit in an area versus building a whole new building. As long as none of the money is shared agencies with differing purposes can apply on their own.
    But in this case, the rescue division, if it didn't share equipment, personnel, or money, would be ineligible due to the fact they aren't a non-affiliated EMS or fire department. Correct?

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    Correct, to be eligible they have to transport patients.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Correct, to be eligible they have to transport patients.
    Agreed and verified with an AFG rep this morning (not that I was checking up on you, BC...this was just one item in a longer conversation.) The rescue wing does NOT transport, so we have a winner.

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