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    Default Amazing Cover-up

    Wikileaks has finally released the footage of an Apache attack against Reuters reporters:



    The amount of cover up by our government has been very disturbing. Every FOIA request denied, denial of knowledge how these reporters died when our Government has video footage of our soldiers killing these reporters.

    I will give these soldiers the every benefit of doubt. These are some hard decisions to make in the middle of a conflict, and I really believe that they were able to mistake the cameras for RPG's. These guys have to make split-second decisions with no room for error. While the footage is disturbing to look at, it is the reality of armed conflict. I honestly do not fault these soldiers.

    The fact that the military is attempting to cover this up is the real problem. The US government has detained Wikileaks staff, confiscated computers, and made very attempt to prevent this footage from being leaked. The government has tried on multiple levels to keep the truth from being revealed.
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    Older story by Reuters about this:

    Reuters seeks US army video of staff killed in Iraq
    Fri, Jul 11 2008
    By Dean Yates

    BAGHDAD, July 11 (Reuters) - Reuters has urged the U.S. military to hand over video footage from U.S. attack helicopters and other materials relating to the killing of two Iraqi staff in Baghdad a year ago.

    Photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen, 22, and driver Saeed Chmagh, 40, were killed in a U.S. helicopter air strike in eastern Baghdad on July 12, 2007.

    Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh had gone to the area after hearing of a military raid on a building around dawn that day, and were with a group of men at the time. It is believed two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons, although witnesses said none were assuming a hostile posture.

    The U.S. military said the helicopter attack, in which nine other people were killed, occurred after security forces came under fire.

    Video of the incident from two U.S. Apache helicopters and photographs taken of the scene were shown to Reuters editors in Baghdad on July 25, 2007 in an off-the-record briefing.

    U.S. military officers who presented the materials said Reuters had to make a request under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to get copies. This request was made the same day.

    "It has now been approximately one year since our original request was submitted and we still have not received a formal response or written initial determination in accordance with FOIA's statutory requirements," Reuters News Chief Counsel Thomas Kim wrote in a letter to the U.S. Central Command.

    Reuters wants all the materials to be able to study closely what happened. Access to the video could also help improve Reuters' safety policies in Iraq, the world's most dangerous country for journalists.

    Indeed, Kim noted that a recent Pentagon probe into the killing of another Reuters journalist by U.S. troops in Baghdad in 2005 identified a "serious inconsistency" between media safety practices and the expectations of U.S. forces in Iraq.

    That report, by the Defense Department's inspector general, the Pentagon's watchdog agency, predicted additional shootings were "likely to reoccur" unless the situation was resolved.

    "The materials requested by this FOIA request may contain information relevant to the recommendations for avoiding a re-occurrence of this tragedy; accordingly, we believe that there is a compelling need for their release and that such release should be made as quickly as possible," Kim wrote.

    There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and gunmen but there was no fighting on the streets in which Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh were moving about with the group of men.

    Besides Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh, four other journalists working for Reuters have been killed by American soldiers in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

    The U.S. military has said its troops acted lawfully in all those cases. An Iraqi working as a translator for Reuters was also shot dead by unknown gunmen in Baghdad on July 11, 2007.

    At least 179 reporters and media assistants have been killed in Iraq since the invasion, according to the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists.

    Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh were much loved members of the Reuters Baghdad bureau.

    (Editing by Janet McBride)
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    I don't see what's "Amazing" about it.....nor is it a "cover-up". Clean shoot......and was with-in ROEs of that time. We have the pleasure and comfort of sitting at our computers and looking at the video with the knowledge of what already happened. Had we been the pilots or the grunts on the ground it would be a different story for us. The camera...looked to me like an AkSu-74 slung...the same guy looks to be a leader to me...a key target for me to kill if I was the pilots too. I other guy looks to be carrying a RPG...no doubt...hiding behind a wall and peaking out....looks hostile to me. My actions would have been the same as the guys who pulled the trigger.

    I've been there....I've had to make these desicions....I know the ROEs....I've been in thier shoes. There is more to why the military doesn't want the video leaked. I am appauled that it was leaked....I hope the ones who did the leaking get what's coming to them....in there naive efforts to show "war crimes"...they actually are jepordizing US personnel (who did nothing wrong and followed SOPs correctly)....a trained eye and ear can pick out what's going on and use it as a tranning video against me and my fellow Marines and Soldiers.

    I also find the George Orwell quote they used in the begining to be Ironic....its he the same guy who said;

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand willing to do violence on their behalf".........?
    Last edited by VinnieB; 04-05-2010 at 06:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post

    The amount of cover up by our government has been very disturbing. Every FOIA request denied, denial of knowledge how these reporters died when our Government has video footage of our soldiers killing these reporters.

    I will give these soldiers the every benefit of doubt. These are some hard decisions to make in the middle of a conflict, and I really believe that they were able to mistake the cameras for RPG's. These guys have to make split-second decisions with no room for error. While the footage is disturbing to look at, it is the reality of armed conflict. I honestly do not fault these soldiers.
    Every benefit of the doubt? I guess I don't buy it, at least from the sound of your post.
    Are there any other security issues with the video? How about the mission of our military, in that spot? Are there any security issues that might cost other servicemen their lives?
    Can you answer that, definitively?

    Oh, yeah; when was the last time you served in a war zone, and were forced to determine what was a "camera" from an RPG, when if you "determined" wrong, you were killed?


    Details, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Every benefit of the doubt? I guess I don't buy it, at least from the sound of your post.
    Are there any other security issues with the video? How about the mission of our military, in that spot? Are there any security issues that might cost other servicemen their lives?
    Can you answer that, definitively?

    Oh, yeah; when was the last time you served in a war zone, and were forced to determine what was a "camera" from an RPG, when if you "determined" wrong, you were killed?


    Details, please.
    Once again:

    I am not questioning the action of these soldiers. They made the decisions they had to, when they had to make it.

    The problem is the fact that the military and our government has spend the last 3 years trying to hide the fact that this happened.

    If you cannot separate those two issues, then I can't help you.

    Making the mistake is not the problem. Denying the mistake and refusing to learn from it is the problem.
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    The guys on the ground had AK-47's and the crew thought the cameras were RPG's. You can spend more time investigating the situation, but if the guys really have RPG's then you are risking your life. I would not be very comfortable trying to milk extra time here. Wait a few more seconds and you or another soldier can die.

    The soldiers didn't attack reporters, they attacked what they believed were bad guys armed with RPG's.

    The only thing left to do now is to try to figure out how to keep innocent people from getting hurt in the future. But you cannot do that unless you try to figure out what went wrong during this engagement. And you cannot figure out what went wrong if the military pretents this whole thing didn't happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    But you cannot do that unless you try to figure out what went wrong during this engagement.
    What went wrong....Selection of the wrong weapon. The whole situation could have been handled a long time ago with one weapon, about 300 megatons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    What went wrong....Selection of the wrong weapon. The whole situation could have been handled a long time ago with one weapon, about 300 megatons.
    On that note. For anyone who does not yet recognize that this guy is the King of Kooks.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/06arms.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    On that note. For anyone who does not yet recognize that this guy is the King of Kooks.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/06arms.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff
    What went wrong....Selection of the wrong weapon. The whole situation could have been handled a long time ago with one weapon, about 300 megatons.
    I know it's a flightsim game, but this guy hit it on the head with his video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQqMIHI-p0

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    The guys on the ground had AK-47's and the crew thought the cameras were RPG's. You can spend more time investigating the situation, but if the guys really have RPG's then you are risking your life. I would not be very comfortable trying to milk extra time here. Wait a few more seconds and you or another soldier can die.

    The soldiers didn't attack reporters, they attacked what they believed were bad guys armed with RPG's.

    The only thing left to do now is to try to figure out how to keep innocent people from getting hurt in the future. But you cannot do that unless you try to figure out what went wrong during this engagement. And you cannot figure out what went wrong if the military pretents this whole thing didn't happen.
    Simple. World Peace. Then no innocents get hurt. But as long as there are radicals and persons of differing opinions then innocents will be hurt.

    Of course all of the Monday Morning QBs have never been in that situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    On that note. For anyone who does not yet recognize that this guy is the King of Kooks.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/06arms.html
    Isn't it amazing how some dumbo form the city continues to pick on the very people who support his life?

    However, on the nuclear arms..... He is going to limit when these arms will be used. So nothing from nothing is still nothing. We don't use them now. This is another one of his do nothing but makes me feel good initiatives.

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    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand willing to do violence on their behalf".........?
    Sadly, this makes for plausible deniability. If "I" don't know it happened, then it never did. What "I" don't know, can't and won't hurt me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand willing to do violence on their behalf".........?
    Orwell also said:

    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Default Cover-up

    From someone who has been in a war zone I quote William Tecumseh Sherman "War is Hell." There will always be the innocent that are killed during a war.It is still not a perfect world where only the enemy die during war....there are those who are close to someone who is about to die. Granted that maybe those in the video clip should have held fire ...but they did what they thought was correct and you can't fault them for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    ...The only thing left to do now is to try to figure out how to keep innocent people from getting hurt in the future...
    Simple. Keep reporters out of the dangerous areas.


    "There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and gunmen "
    "At least 179 reporters and media assistants have been killed in Iraq since the invasion"
    "It is believed two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons" (sorry, but if they have to carry weapons for protection...the press should not be there)
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Simple. Keep reporters out of the dangerous areas.


    "There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and gunmen "
    "At least 179 reporters and media assistants have been killed in Iraq since the invasion"
    "It is believed two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons" (sorry, but if they have to carry weapons for protection...the press should not be there)
    Bones you hit this one right on the head. I'm working now in Northern Iraq and its still no walk in the park. The media have to take a great deal of responsibility for this since there seems to be no coordination between the military and the field corespondents.. Putting people carrying cameras, & equip not easily identifiable in between people shooting at each other is not too bright. That said, the military spokesmen need to get their crap together as well. Out and out lying to the public will very often come back to bite them.

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    Let me say..Thank you for your service. Stay safe!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Bones you hit this one right on the head. I'm working now in Northern Iraq and its still no walk in the park. The media have to take a great deal of responsibility for this since there seems to be no coordination between the military and the field corespondents.. Putting people carrying cameras, & equip not easily identifiable in between people shooting at each other is not too bright. That said, the military spokesmen need to get their crap together as well. Out and out lying to the public will very often come back to bite them.
    LOL, I'm recalling a few years back the marines were making a covert landing under the cover of night and were met by TV cameras and bright lights as they came a shore. If you chose to go into a dangerous area then expect the consequences. In a fire fight you don't always know who the bad guys are.

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    But you know after the fact, and you know that you have been lying and covering it up for 3 years. Which is the issue here.

    Not the incident, but the cover up.
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    I really don't see what they were trying to cover up. Obviously if the quotes are correct this incident was reported. It is horrible that innocent people were killed and especially children. It was a sad day but where is the cover up?

    As for the news crews they should have never pointed anything at a US Apache in a war zone. The crew did exactly as were trained to do, report what they believed to be going on (as it looked to me as well) permission requested to engage, permission granted after verification that no friendlies were suppose to be in the area.

    And I ask again, where is the cover up. Did you expect the armed forces to come out and announce two children had been killed?

    As for the reporters, they were war zone reporters. Danger is inherent in their jobs, as it is ours.

    If you are talking about the camera footage not being released or being confiscated and people arrested for posting it, well I see the government's point on this. The footage is military, Federal, property and most likely considered under a level of secrecy. We do not want the world to be seeing our capabilities and the technology we use. There is such a thing as military secrets. I am not going to b****h about that. It keeps me safe and gives me my and your freedoms.

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    WTF? You are criticizing the military for how these people died?

    Rules of engagement (ROE) is clearly and repeatedly reviewed with our troops while preparing to deploy and when in theater. After watching this I cannot see how those ROE were violated. Funny thing about the military, they have this annoying tendency to hold you accountable for your actions. If this was a ROE violation the helicopter crew and their chain of command would have received disciplinary actions.

    The video states that the children were taken to a local hospital, orders those troops on the ground received which deviated from their initial plan, where they may receive a lower level of care. First, I didn't hear the 9 line MEDEVAC request. How severely injured were the children? The troops on the ground were preparing to get them out of there, possibly because they were seriously injured or possibly because they were kids and they acted like an rational adult would and wanted to get them to care immediately. Second, I am not able to currently look up the grid coordinates for where this action took place in relation to Rustimayah but because Baghdad is a large city there is the real possibility that a local hospital was closer. Third, Iraq has many people who have been educated in other countries, including the US. This is something you see from countries throughout the world. Iraq has been at war for years. Think about the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980's. As a result it is quite an assumption that going to a local hospital that was potentially closer was a lower standard of care than at a US base. Don't get me wrong, our medical personnel are some of the highest trained in the world, especially when it comes to trauma, but we don't know everything.

    The video was "decrypted". Does this mean they went through it frame by frame, enlarging and enhancing it so they could have a picture with higher resolution and detail? Seeing that it was "decrypted" makes me suspicious of the video from the onset. I know I couldn't tell who those people were from viewing the video that the pilots had. Some had weapons and that was obvious. Others were carrying items that may not have looked like a RPG or AK47. Were they cameras or were they components for a IED, mortars, grenades or ammunition? Being in the company of people who definitively had weapons put these reports in the wrong place with the wrong people. The helicopters overhead just provided the wrong time.

    The comment was made that they were walking casually down the street. Since I question the lack of your military experience I'll try to explain with something you may be able to understand. Have you watched "Band of Brothers" or "Saving Private Ryan". If so, perhaps you noticed that those troops were walking casually when they felt they were not in immediate danger of being engaged.

    A fellow reporter was quoted saying he saw helicopters firing at houses in the area when he was on the ground. The slant of this implied that the military was firing at groups of people. If that was the case he would be dead. It is entirely possible that they were engaging combatants that were not visible to him on the ground. He's making an assumption and stating it as fact. In a combat zone a lot happens and you are not always in the area to see and absorb all that occurs.

    The implication is also made that the reporter had a camera so he was innocent. You do understand that the enemy films their attacks for propaganda and as proof of a successful attack in order to be paid don't you? They also film our tactics, techniques and procedures in an attempt to be successful against us. Where do you think all these video's of attacks on coalition personnel are coming from?

    The reporter was talking on his phone. Maybe back in the states there is nothing wrong with talking on the phone but over hear it signals you out for observation as we pass. You could simply be calling Mom to say hello. You could also be calling the phone that will initiate the EFP's that are in place to attack our convoy. You may even be communicating with your fellow jihadist how many vehicles we have, which way we are headed and how to hit us.

    When the area was being secured a body was run over. That is unfortunate. I'm sure neither you or your fellow fire fighters have ever left a boot print on a fatality. Try driving in an up armored Humvee through trash while attempting to secure the area and see if you can miss the body. The language of the pilots may seem crude but so does that in the fire service. They were trying to get their job done before the window of opportunity was lost and then were happy that all those months of training they went through paid off and they were able to engage combatants (see ROE reference above) and save American lives. By the way, when the one reporter was on the ground and moving did you happen to notice the pilot telling him to pick up a weapon? That was proof that the pilots were following ROE!!! He was not fired up because he did not have a weapon. When the van approached and started picking up weapons and enemy personnel, it became a target.

    Where was the cover up? The video wasn't released immediately? Do you have any idea the amount of red tape that is required to get something like this released. This is also not something that is stored on the world wide web by the military. The FOIA was made in the states and processed in order with all the other FOIA request. Then this tape had to be found, copied, sent for declassification and then released. You have to have it declassified to ensure that it doesn't give away our capabilities to our enemies, current or potential. Not something that happens very quickly.

    Bottom line. These reporters were among combatants in a war zone and died as a result of the decision to go with them. The children were injured because they were brought into the fight. Could you tell in your armchair that they were kids from the video? Bet you couldn't until the edited tape showed them. Pilots didn't have that editing in place or the chance to watch this over and over to see exactly who was who.

    The military has made mistakes. This was not one of them. While we are all entitled to free speech, which the military provides you by the way, perhaps you should just keep your mouth shut from now on instead of talking about things you don't understand.

    I'm about to finish my second tour in Iraq. Until you have been here or Afghanistan and experienced it you will never be able to fully understand the situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT View Post
    WTF? You are criticizing the military for how these people died?

    Rules of engagement (ROE) is clearly and repeatedly reviewed with our troops while preparing to deploy and when in theater. After watching this I cannot see how those ROE were violated. Funny thing about the military, they have this annoying tendency to hold you accountable for your actions. If this was a ROE violation the helicopter crew and their chain of command would have received disciplinary actions.

    The video states that the children were taken to a local hospital, orders those troops on the ground received which deviated from their initial plan, where they may receive a lower level of care. First, I didn't hear the 9 line MEDEVAC request. How severely injured were the children? The troops on the ground were preparing to get them out of there, possibly because they were seriously injured or possibly because they were kids and they acted like an rational adult would and wanted to get them to care immediately. Second, I am not able to currently look up the grid coordinates for where this action took place in relation to Rustimayah but because Baghdad is a large city there is the real possibility that a local hospital was closer. Third, Iraq has many people who have been educated in other countries, including the US. This is something you see from countries throughout the world. Iraq has been at war for years. Think about the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980's. As a result it is quite an assumption that going to a local hospital that was potentially closer was a lower standard of care than at a US base. Don't get me wrong, our medical personnel are some of the highest trained in the world, especially when it comes to trauma, but we don't know everything.

    The video was "decrypted". Does this mean they went through it frame by frame, enlarging and enhancing it so they could have a picture with higher resolution and detail? Seeing that it was "decrypted" makes me suspicious of the video from the onset. I know I couldn't tell who those people were from viewing the video that the pilots had. Some had weapons and that was obvious. Others were carrying items that may not have looked like a RPG or AK47. Were they cameras or were they components for a IED, mortars, grenades or ammunition? Being in the company of people who definitively had weapons put these reports in the wrong place with the wrong people. The helicopters overhead just provided the wrong time.

    The comment was made that they were walking casually down the street. Since I question the lack of your military experience I'll try to explain with something you may be able to understand. Have you watched "Band of Brothers" or "Saving Private Ryan". If so, perhaps you noticed that those troops were walking casually when they felt they were not in immediate danger of being engaged.

    A fellow reporter was quoted saying he saw helicopters firing at houses in the area when he was on the ground. The slant of this implied that the military was firing at groups of people. If that was the case he would be dead. It is entirely possible that they were engaging combatants that were not visible to him on the ground. He's making an assumption and stating it as fact. In a combat zone a lot happens and you are not always in the area to see and absorb all that occurs.

    The implication is also made that the reporter had a camera so he was innocent. You do understand that the enemy films their attacks for propaganda and as proof of a successful attack in order to be paid don't you? They also film our tactics, techniques and procedures in an attempt to be successful against us. Where do you think all these video's of attacks on coalition personnel are coming from?

    The reporter was talking on his phone. Maybe back in the states there is nothing wrong with talking on the phone but over hear it signals you out for observation as we pass. You could simply be calling Mom to say hello. You could also be calling the phone that will initiate the EFP's that are in place to attack our convoy. You may even be communicating with your fellow jihadist how many vehicles we have, which way we are headed and how to hit us.

    When the area was being secured a body was run over. That is unfortunate. I'm sure neither you or your fellow fire fighters have ever left a boot print on a fatality. Try driving in an up armored Humvee through trash while attempting to secure the area and see if you can miss the body. The language of the pilots may seem crude but so does that in the fire service. They were trying to get their job done before the window of opportunity was lost and then were happy that all those months of training they went through paid off and they were able to engage combatants (see ROE reference above) and save American lives. By the way, when the one reporter was on the ground and moving did you happen to notice the pilot telling him to pick up a weapon? That was proof that the pilots were following ROE!!! He was not fired up because he did not have a weapon. When the van approached and started picking up weapons and enemy personnel, it became a target.

    Where was the cover up? The video wasn't released immediately? Do you have any idea the amount of red tape that is required to get something like this released. This is also not something that is stored on the world wide web by the military. The FOIA was made in the states and processed in order with all the other FOIA request. Then this tape had to be found, copied, sent for declassification and then released. You have to have it declassified to ensure that it doesn't give away our capabilities to our enemies, current or potential. Not something that happens very quickly.

    Bottom line. These reporters were among combatants in a war zone and died as a result of the decision to go with them. The children were injured because they were brought into the fight. Could you tell in your armchair that they were kids from the video? Bet you couldn't until the edited tape showed them. Pilots didn't have that editing in place or the chance to watch this over and over to see exactly who was who.

    The military has made mistakes. This was not one of them. While we are all entitled to free speech, which the military provides you by the way, perhaps you should just keep your mouth shut from now on instead of talking about things you don't understand.

    I'm about to finish my second tour in Iraq. Until you have been here or Afghanistan and experienced it you will never be able to fully understand the situation.
    Reading comprehension fail.....
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT View Post

    I'm about to finish my second tour in Iraq. Until you have been here or Afghanistan and experienced it you will never be able to fully understand the situation.
    Words cannot express my appreciation for your post and more especially for what you are doing for us. May God be with you and may all of you return home safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Reading comprehension fail.....
    I attempted to make my views clear but perhaps I was to verbose. What caused your "Reading comprehension fail..."? Was there something that I didn't logically explain in order to refute the video and it's comments? Please let me know so I can explain in order for you to comprehend my point of view.

    Otherwise I'll assume your "Reading comprehension fail...." is directly related to you being unable to subjectively and rationally interpret information and form your own conclusions.

    Walt
    Train like you want to fight.
    www.kvfd.net

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