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  1. #1
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    Default Amazing Cover-up

    Wikileaks has finally released the footage of an Apache attack against Reuters reporters:



    The amount of cover up by our government has been very disturbing. Every FOIA request denied, denial of knowledge how these reporters died when our Government has video footage of our soldiers killing these reporters.

    I will give these soldiers the every benefit of doubt. These are some hard decisions to make in the middle of a conflict, and I really believe that they were able to mistake the cameras for RPG's. These guys have to make split-second decisions with no room for error. While the footage is disturbing to look at, it is the reality of armed conflict. I honestly do not fault these soldiers.

    The fact that the military is attempting to cover this up is the real problem. The US government has detained Wikileaks staff, confiscated computers, and made very attempt to prevent this footage from being leaked. The government has tried on multiple levels to keep the truth from being revealed.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin


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    Older story by Reuters about this:

    Reuters seeks US army video of staff killed in Iraq
    Fri, Jul 11 2008
    By Dean Yates

    BAGHDAD, July 11 (Reuters) - Reuters has urged the U.S. military to hand over video footage from U.S. attack helicopters and other materials relating to the killing of two Iraqi staff in Baghdad a year ago.

    Photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen, 22, and driver Saeed Chmagh, 40, were killed in a U.S. helicopter air strike in eastern Baghdad on July 12, 2007.

    Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh had gone to the area after hearing of a military raid on a building around dawn that day, and were with a group of men at the time. It is believed two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons, although witnesses said none were assuming a hostile posture.

    The U.S. military said the helicopter attack, in which nine other people were killed, occurred after security forces came under fire.

    Video of the incident from two U.S. Apache helicopters and photographs taken of the scene were shown to Reuters editors in Baghdad on July 25, 2007 in an off-the-record briefing.

    U.S. military officers who presented the materials said Reuters had to make a request under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to get copies. This request was made the same day.

    "It has now been approximately one year since our original request was submitted and we still have not received a formal response or written initial determination in accordance with FOIA's statutory requirements," Reuters News Chief Counsel Thomas Kim wrote in a letter to the U.S. Central Command.

    Reuters wants all the materials to be able to study closely what happened. Access to the video could also help improve Reuters' safety policies in Iraq, the world's most dangerous country for journalists.

    Indeed, Kim noted that a recent Pentagon probe into the killing of another Reuters journalist by U.S. troops in Baghdad in 2005 identified a "serious inconsistency" between media safety practices and the expectations of U.S. forces in Iraq.

    That report, by the Defense Department's inspector general, the Pentagon's watchdog agency, predicted additional shootings were "likely to reoccur" unless the situation was resolved.

    "The materials requested by this FOIA request may contain information relevant to the recommendations for avoiding a re-occurrence of this tragedy; accordingly, we believe that there is a compelling need for their release and that such release should be made as quickly as possible," Kim wrote.

    There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and gunmen but there was no fighting on the streets in which Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh were moving about with the group of men.

    Besides Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh, four other journalists working for Reuters have been killed by American soldiers in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

    The U.S. military has said its troops acted lawfully in all those cases. An Iraqi working as a translator for Reuters was also shot dead by unknown gunmen in Baghdad on July 11, 2007.

    At least 179 reporters and media assistants have been killed in Iraq since the invasion, according to the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists.

    Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh were much loved members of the Reuters Baghdad bureau.

    (Editing by Janet McBride)
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    I don't see what's "Amazing" about it.....nor is it a "cover-up". Clean shoot......and was with-in ROEs of that time. We have the pleasure and comfort of sitting at our computers and looking at the video with the knowledge of what already happened. Had we been the pilots or the grunts on the ground it would be a different story for us. The camera...looked to me like an AkSu-74 slung...the same guy looks to be a leader to me...a key target for me to kill if I was the pilots too. I other guy looks to be carrying a RPG...no doubt...hiding behind a wall and peaking out....looks hostile to me. My actions would have been the same as the guys who pulled the trigger.

    I've been there....I've had to make these desicions....I know the ROEs....I've been in thier shoes. There is more to why the military doesn't want the video leaked. I am appauled that it was leaked....I hope the ones who did the leaking get what's coming to them....in there naive efforts to show "war crimes"...they actually are jepordizing US personnel (who did nothing wrong and followed SOPs correctly)....a trained eye and ear can pick out what's going on and use it as a tranning video against me and my fellow Marines and Soldiers.

    I also find the George Orwell quote they used in the begining to be Ironic....its he the same guy who said;

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand willing to do violence on their behalf".........?
    Last edited by VinnieB; 04-05-2010 at 06:54 PM.
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    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post

    The amount of cover up by our government has been very disturbing. Every FOIA request denied, denial of knowledge how these reporters died when our Government has video footage of our soldiers killing these reporters.

    I will give these soldiers the every benefit of doubt. These are some hard decisions to make in the middle of a conflict, and I really believe that they were able to mistake the cameras for RPG's. These guys have to make split-second decisions with no room for error. While the footage is disturbing to look at, it is the reality of armed conflict. I honestly do not fault these soldiers.
    Every benefit of the doubt? I guess I don't buy it, at least from the sound of your post.
    Are there any other security issues with the video? How about the mission of our military, in that spot? Are there any security issues that might cost other servicemen their lives?
    Can you answer that, definitively?

    Oh, yeah; when was the last time you served in a war zone, and were forced to determine what was a "camera" from an RPG, when if you "determined" wrong, you were killed?


    Details, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Every benefit of the doubt? I guess I don't buy it, at least from the sound of your post.
    Are there any other security issues with the video? How about the mission of our military, in that spot? Are there any security issues that might cost other servicemen their lives?
    Can you answer that, definitively?

    Oh, yeah; when was the last time you served in a war zone, and were forced to determine what was a "camera" from an RPG, when if you "determined" wrong, you were killed?


    Details, please.
    Once again:

    I am not questioning the action of these soldiers. They made the decisions they had to, when they had to make it.

    The problem is the fact that the military and our government has spend the last 3 years trying to hide the fact that this happened.

    If you cannot separate those two issues, then I can't help you.

    Making the mistake is not the problem. Denying the mistake and refusing to learn from it is the problem.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    The guys on the ground had AK-47's and the crew thought the cameras were RPG's. You can spend more time investigating the situation, but if the guys really have RPG's then you are risking your life. I would not be very comfortable trying to milk extra time here. Wait a few more seconds and you or another soldier can die.

    The soldiers didn't attack reporters, they attacked what they believed were bad guys armed with RPG's.

    The only thing left to do now is to try to figure out how to keep innocent people from getting hurt in the future. But you cannot do that unless you try to figure out what went wrong during this engagement. And you cannot figure out what went wrong if the military pretents this whole thing didn't happen.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    But you cannot do that unless you try to figure out what went wrong during this engagement.
    What went wrong....Selection of the wrong weapon. The whole situation could have been handled a long time ago with one weapon, about 300 megatons.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    What went wrong....Selection of the wrong weapon. The whole situation could have been handled a long time ago with one weapon, about 300 megatons.
    On that note. For anyone who does not yet recognize that this guy is the King of Kooks.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/06arms.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    On that note. For anyone who does not yet recognize that this guy is the King of Kooks.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/06arms.html
    Isn't time for you to go service a ewe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff
    What went wrong....Selection of the wrong weapon. The whole situation could have been handled a long time ago with one weapon, about 300 megatons.
    I know it's a flightsim game, but this guy hit it on the head with his video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQqMIHI-p0

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    The guys on the ground had AK-47's and the crew thought the cameras were RPG's. You can spend more time investigating the situation, but if the guys really have RPG's then you are risking your life. I would not be very comfortable trying to milk extra time here. Wait a few more seconds and you or another soldier can die.

    The soldiers didn't attack reporters, they attacked what they believed were bad guys armed with RPG's.

    The only thing left to do now is to try to figure out how to keep innocent people from getting hurt in the future. But you cannot do that unless you try to figure out what went wrong during this engagement. And you cannot figure out what went wrong if the military pretents this whole thing didn't happen.
    Simple. World Peace. Then no innocents get hurt. But as long as there are radicals and persons of differing opinions then innocents will be hurt.

    Of course all of the Monday Morning QBs have never been in that situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    On that note. For anyone who does not yet recognize that this guy is the King of Kooks.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/06arms.html
    Isn't it amazing how some dumbo form the city continues to pick on the very people who support his life?

    However, on the nuclear arms..... He is going to limit when these arms will be used. So nothing from nothing is still nothing. We don't use them now. This is another one of his do nothing but makes me feel good initiatives.

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    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand willing to do violence on their behalf".........?
    Sadly, this makes for plausible deniability. If "I" don't know it happened, then it never did. What "I" don't know, can't and won't hurt me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand willing to do violence on their behalf".........?
    Orwell also said:

    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Default Cover-up

    From someone who has been in a war zone I quote William Tecumseh Sherman "War is Hell." There will always be the innocent that are killed during a war.It is still not a perfect world where only the enemy die during war....there are those who are close to someone who is about to die. Granted that maybe those in the video clip should have held fire ...but they did what they thought was correct and you can't fault them for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    ...The only thing left to do now is to try to figure out how to keep innocent people from getting hurt in the future...
    Simple. Keep reporters out of the dangerous areas.


    "There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and gunmen "
    "At least 179 reporters and media assistants have been killed in Iraq since the invasion"
    "It is believed two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons" (sorry, but if they have to carry weapons for protection...the press should not be there)
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Simple. Keep reporters out of the dangerous areas.


    "There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and gunmen "
    "At least 179 reporters and media assistants have been killed in Iraq since the invasion"
    "It is believed two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons" (sorry, but if they have to carry weapons for protection...the press should not be there)
    Bones you hit this one right on the head. I'm working now in Northern Iraq and its still no walk in the park. The media have to take a great deal of responsibility for this since there seems to be no coordination between the military and the field corespondents.. Putting people carrying cameras, & equip not easily identifiable in between people shooting at each other is not too bright. That said, the military spokesmen need to get their crap together as well. Out and out lying to the public will very often come back to bite them.

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    Let me say..Thank you for your service. Stay safe!!
    Respectfully,
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Bones you hit this one right on the head. I'm working now in Northern Iraq and its still no walk in the park. The media have to take a great deal of responsibility for this since there seems to be no coordination between the military and the field corespondents.. Putting people carrying cameras, & equip not easily identifiable in between people shooting at each other is not too bright. That said, the military spokesmen need to get their crap together as well. Out and out lying to the public will very often come back to bite them.
    LOL, I'm recalling a few years back the marines were making a covert landing under the cover of night and were met by TV cameras and bright lights as they came a shore. If you chose to go into a dangerous area then expect the consequences. In a fire fight you don't always know who the bad guys are.

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    But you know after the fact, and you know that you have been lying and covering it up for 3 years. Which is the issue here.

    Not the incident, but the cover up.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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