Thread: Nfpa ?

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    Default Nfpa ?

    We are looking to do a Mini-pumper grant. To try and keep cost down as low as possible we are considering a ford -550,2 wheel drive, 750gpm pump 500 gal. water tank. My question is by NFPA standards do we need to put a foam system on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjcont View Post
    We are looking to do a Mini-pumper grant. To try and keep cost down as low as possible we are considering a ford -550,2 wheel drive, 750gpm pump 500 gal. water tank. My question is by NFPA standards do we need to put a foam system on it?
    No, you do not have to put a foam system on it.....it's just an option not a requirement.

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    500gal on a F550?

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    Thats a lot of water....

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    750gpm pump 500 gal. water tank
    That would be a pumper not a mini.
    You sure you want 2 wheel drive ?

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    Our 2003 E-One has a 750 gpm and a 240 gallon tank. An option was a 300 gallon tank. I thought 300 was was too big, especially when you load it down with equipment.
    Anyway, 240 tank is plenty big enough for us.
    Glenn

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    He is looking for suggestions here folks. Here is his dilemma: Size limitations of station house. 24'ft length bay with a 10ft wide by 8 ft tall bay door. Trying to keep costs under $175K and avoid having to go after a custom built chassis. Suggestions anyone?
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Hell of bundle of constraints. Is this to be "the" pumper? If not forget about the 500gal. If is their 1st out pumper then need the 500gal but will have to do a very not normal project. Which is expensive.

    A F550 with 300gal (such as a Classic Fire Ranger) is reasonable tank size. Perhaps go to a CAFS miniskid for improved performance. ISO apparently is going to start crediting CAFS with next update.

    www.classicfirellc.com/frfu.asp
    www.isomitigation.com

    300gal meets current ISO requirement but apparently that will be changing to 500gal minimum in next version. Maybe an F550 with a medium size trailer for 200+gal and the extra compartment space needed for the rest of the ISO load of equipment. Stowing ladders may be the problem. Perhaps could stay under combined GVW and get done to budget. A bit outside of the box but could meet ISO and NFPA. NFPA1901-2009 has new trailer lighting section that would have to meet. Perhaps talk to Classic Fire they are down in your area of FL.

    As they also have a limited bay length will need another bay to park the trailer in.

    You can get a nice 1250gpm/1000gal pump for $175k but is going require higher doors. You're SOL with std moderm IH/Frtliner pumper with short doors as std will be over 10'. Even an F750 will be 9' high and it will be expensive as will have to add on (as FRC) seatbelt sensors and blackbox.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Hell of bundle of constraints. Is this to be "the" pumper? If not forget about the 500gal. If is their 1st out pumper then need the 500gal but will have to do a very not normal project. Which is expensive.

    A F550 with 300gal (such as a Classic Fire Ranger) is reasonable tank size. Perhaps go to a CAFS miniskid for improved performance. ISO apparently is going to start crediting CAFS with next update.

    www.classicfirellc.com/frfu.asp
    www.isomitigation.com

    300gal meets current ISO requirement but apparently that will be changing to 500gal minimum in next version. Maybe an F550 with a medium size trailer for 200+gal and the extra compartment space needed for the rest of the ISO load of equipment. Stowing ladders may be the problem. Perhaps could stay under combined GVW and get done to budget. A bit outside of the box but could meet ISO and NFPA. NFPA1901-2009 has new trailer lighting section that would have to meet. Perhaps talk to Classic Fire they are down in your area of FL.

    As they also have a limited bay length will need another bay to park the trailer in.

    You can get a nice 1250gpm/1000gal pump for $175k but is going require higher doors. You're SOL with std moderm IH/Frtliner pumper with short doors as std will be over 10'. Even an F750 will be 9' high and it will be expensive as will have to add on (as FRC) seatbelt sensors and blackbox.
    Its not his primary, he has another pumper in another station but it would be a first out to initiate pumping operations until his second pumper could arrive and laso to be used for those long driveways etc. and probablay in a resuce capacity as well.Just trying to figure out what is best option for him.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    If CAFS is on it need less GPM and less water to pack the punch. Like neiowa said the 8' height restriction is a killer for most chassis with any sort of GVW to hold more stuff. Beefed suspensions and whatnot add inches upwards, plus being NY you'd want 4WD.

    Never going to hold enough equipment to make an ISO rated pumper so might as well keep the cost down and keep it useful. This one is under 6'4": http://www.martinapparatus.com/LiveS...sh-Trucks.aspx

    Woodlands TX Attack truck. Don't have specs on it but pretty sure there's foam on board. Will see if I can't find out some details and repost, but this is a bread and butter truck for any manufacturer to pull off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    If CAFS is on it need less GPM and less water to pack the punch. Like neiowa said the 8' height restriction is a killer for most chassis with any sort of GVW to hold more stuff. Beefed suspensions and whatnot add inches upwards, plus being NY you'd want 4WD.

    Never going to hold enough equipment to make an ISO rated pumper so might as well keep the cost down and keep it useful. This one is under 6'4": http://www.martinapparatus.com/LiveS...sh-Trucks.aspx

    Woodlands TX Attack truck. Don't have specs on it but pretty sure there's foam on board. Will see if I can't find out some details and repost, but this is a bread and butter truck for any manufacturer to pull off.
    Yea the 8 ft height is a killer for sure. Thanks for input Brian.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Kurt,

    Thanks for jumping in here for me buddy. My world turned into a mad house after we talked yesterday and I thought here was a good place to get some good suggestions. I had time last night for the quick NFPA question before work called me away. tonight is going to be the same so getting a chance to call Arron is probably out tonight also. I did get ahold of the company I have been working with for pricing and they are working on the suggestions you made. Getting rid of the foam cell was an idea I had last night after thinking about our calls for the past few years. Just bouncing ideas around. I never thought a laptop would be included in the tools I carried to work everyday.

    Rich

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    Just wanted to repost and make sure I thanked everybody here for their sugestions. Keep them coming I won't be able to post again till Friday but I am listening!!

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    Default Interesting Concept

    May want to take a look at these, Orcas Island Fire Rescue in Washington just put 4 of these in service on Ford F550 Chassis. 1250gpm pump with CAFS, 300 water and 25 of class A foam. This is a larger pump than you are looking for but a similar sized apparatus.

    http://www.orcasfire.org/NewsMedia/P...01239c-88.html

    Specs, Drawings and additional photos:

    http://targheefire.com/content/darle...tection-pumper
    Last edited by ejfeicht; 04-14-2010 at 07:15 PM.

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    Take a look at the updated Dodge 5500 and new IH Cl 5 "Terrastar". Both have points that may be better options that Ford (which will have a new engine this year).

    Both have a large crewcab. I have not heard if the IH will have a 4x4 option or not (or if will be price competitive with Ford & Dodge).

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    I can only speak about my 2003 E-one mini. We were under a height restriction as well. (railroad underpass). Our 2003 F-550 came in at 7'9". It has a 240 tank and a 750 pump.
    I do not know if Ford is making the F-550 taller than that now. Alot I am sure has changed since 03.


    We too were trying to get the largest pump we could with the height restriction.

    The dealer kept telling us you have a mini not a full fledge engine. So be careful not to overload it with equipment.

    Good Luck,
    Glenn

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    also have to watch pump/tank size because 750 puts you into mini which is 1901 not 1906. may change your app's standed depending on the rest of the fleet's makeup. sounds like 1901 would be ok if you only have 1 other pumper but still have to check all angles on things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    also have to watch pump/tank size because 750 puts you into mini which is 1901 not 1906. may change your app's standed depending on the rest of the fleet's makeup. sounds like 1901 would be ok if you only have 1 other pumper but still have to check all angles on things.
    [/B]

    Brian could you or someonr here give me some insight on this. I've never could completely grasp the difference between 1901 and 1906 and also the ISO. Whatb does it all mean for my my app. and my department?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjcont View Post
    [/B]

    Brian could you or someonr here give me some insight on this. I've never could completely grasp the difference between 1901 and 1906 and also the ISO. Whatb does it all mean for my my app. and my department?
    What it boils down is what the primary focus of the vehicle will be....structural or wildland.

    Whether you call it a mini-pumper, quick attack or initial attack if its primarilly for structural then it falls under 1901 for fire apparatus. This requires min. pump & tank size along with equipment such as ladders, SCBA, hose, nozzles etc.

    Since it would be classified as a pumper the potential for success will depend on how many pumpers you have and their age.

    If the focus is primarily wildland the vehicle would fall under 1906 for wildland vehicles. The requirements are not as cumbersome as 1901. For ex. the equipment list is minimal, no SCBA, ladders etc.

    Again, depending on whether you have such a vehicle or not will depend on the potential for success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    What it boils down is what the primary focus of the vehicle will be....structural or wildland.

    Whether you call it a mini-pumper, quick attack or initial attack if its primarilly for structural then it falls under 1901 for fire apparatus. This requires min. pump & tank size along with equipment such as ladders, SCBA, hose, nozzles etc.

    Since it would be classified as a pumper the potential for success will depend on how many pumpers you have and their age.

    If the focus is primarily wildland the vehicle would fall under 1906 for wildland vehicles. The requirements are not as cumbersome as 1901. For ex. the equipment list is minimal, no SCBA, ladders etc.

    Again, depending on whether you have such a vehicle or not will depend on the potential for success.
    We have 2 pumpers and 1 pumper/tanker with an average age of just over 25 years and the newest 15 years old. The 2 oldest ones are in one station (the '75 and the '84) about 10 miles from the newest( '95). Believed it or not at this time the '75 we have very few problems with, the '84 on the other hand is nothing but problems this is the one we would like to replace. The biggest problem, is getting a truck with as much water as possible that will fit in a 8' tall door. Right now the '75 has 500 gal. on it and the '84 would have 1000 gal. if we could get it to stop leaking. also no hydrants in our district!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjcont View Post
    We have 2 pumpers and 1 pumper/tanker with an average age of just over 25 years and the newest 15 years old. The 2 oldest ones are in one station (the '75 and the '84) about 10 miles from the newest( '95). Believed it or not at this time the '75 we have very few problems with, the '84 on the other hand is nothing but problems this is the one we would like to replace. The biggest problem, is getting a truck with as much water as possible that will fit in a 8' tall door. Right now the '75 has 500 gal. on it and the '84 would have 1000 gal. if we could get it to stop leaking. also no hydrants in our district!
    The 8' doors make it a huge issue for you on what options you have. Is there any way to renovate the bay doors to make them higher? What about the width of the doors?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    The 8' doors make it a huge issue for you on what options you have. Is there any way to renovate the bay doors to make them higher? What about the width of the doors?
    Doors are 10' +/- wide with no hope at all of making any higher

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjcont View Post
    Doors are 10' +/- wide with no hope at all of making any higher
    Is it a ceiling height issue in the bay or financial issue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    Is it a ceiling height issue in the bay or financial issue?
    All of the above plus Historical restraints

    http://www.cnyfiretrucks.com/ go to Herkimer County, Van Hornesville, picture of station 1
    Last edited by rjcont; 04-16-2010 at 09:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjcont View Post
    All of the above plus Historical restraints

    http://www.cnyfiretrucks.com/ go to Herkimer County, Van Hornesville, picture of station 1
    Can't tell from the picture,
    But thinking outside the box & being a contractor, could you excavate the driveway lower and drop the bay floor down any? Is there any elevation between the road and station floor now?
    I know of a dept that had all but given up hope of ever getting a new engine to fit in their old low ceiling station bays. They were able to gain almost two feet additional headroom by doing just that. Their station ramp had a 8 degree slope so they had the room to excavate. It did require jacking up the building and putting new footings down, but the advantage was the old crumbling slab got replaced with a new one with in floor radiant heat.

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