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    Default What do you think of this hose / nozzle setup

    My fire department is way behind the times in certain areas. One area that I would really like to address in the near future is our main pre-connect attack lines. We are currently using 250ft. 1-1/2" lines with Akron 100psi adjustable gallonage nozzles. The nozzles are set at 95gpm. We also carry 200ft. 2-1/2" lines with similar nozzles set at 250gpm.

    The last few residential fires we've ran on, we pulled the 2-1/2 first because 95gpm just won't cut it.

    Changing to 1-3/4" hose is out of question, there simply is not enough support amongst our voting members to spend the money. And many of our old timers just simply don't understand hydraulics... this is a common statement I get "why go to 1-3/4" hose, it still has 1-1/2" fittings, you can only get 1-1/2" of water through it". I'm a mechanical engineer by trade, and I understand fluid flow and hydraulics quite well, but there is simply no reasoning with these folks.

    So, I'm left with looking at other options. I personally prefer smooth bore nozzles, but this is highly debated in our department as well. Many of these same old timers feel that the fog nozzles offer them added protection, they must like becoming lobsters if they really think this.... but again, they are set in there ways. I think the best solution for us overall would be some low pressure break apart nozzles, but they are pricey and will be a hard sell. For now, I would like to experiment with only one of our preconnected lines. I am thinking of using a smooth bore with a 7/8" tip, we already have the shutoffs. My calculations show that this nozzle will deliver 151gpm at 44psi nozzle pressure with a pump discharge pressure of 186psi. Of course as with all smooth bores it can be pumped up or down a little as well.

    What do you guys think? Sound reasonable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    My fire department is way behind the times in certain areas. One area that I would really like to address in the near future is our main pre-connect attack lines. We are currently using 250ft. 1-1/2" lines with Akron 100psi adjustable gallonage nozzles. The nozzles are set at 95gpm. We also carry 200ft. 2-1/2" lines with similar nozzles set at 250gpm.

    The last few residential fires we've ran on, we pulled the 2-1/2 first because 95gpm just won't cut it.

    Changing to 1-3/4" hose is out of question, there simply is not enough support amongst our voting members to spend the money. And many of our old timers just simply don't understand hydraulics... this is a common statement I get "why go to 1-3/4" hose, it still has 1-1/2" fittings, you can only get 1-1/2" of water through it". I'm a mechanical engineer by trade, and I understand fluid flow and hydraulics quite well, but there is simply no reasoning with these folks.

    So, I'm left with looking at other options. I personally prefer smooth bore nozzles, but this is highly debated in our department as well. Many of these same old timers feel that the fog nozzles offer them added protection, they must like becoming lobsters if they really think this.... but again, they are set in there ways. I think the best solution for us overall would be some low pressure break apart nozzles, but they are pricey and will be a hard sell. For now, I would like to experiment with only one of our preconnected lines. I am thinking of using a smooth bore with a 7/8" tip, we already have the shutoffs. My calculations show that this nozzle will deliver 151gpm at 44psi nozzle pressure with a pump discharge pressure of 186psi. Of course as with all smooth bores it can be pumped up or down a little as well.

    What do you guys think? Sound reasonable?



    Good luck on trying to change them with new ideas. It is going to be a hard time for you. The best thing would be to demo this with 1-1/2 handline and fog nozzle vs. the same layout with smooth bore. It would be better if you could get some 1-3/4' hose to show them and compare both lines.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    this is a common statement I get "why go to 1-3/4" hose, it still has 1-1/2" fittings, you can only get 1-1/2" of water through it".
    Sounds like you have real problems.

    Tactics being decided by "the membership" being the first big problem. Compounded by the fact that they are clearly uneducated in the topic at hand.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    Good luck on trying to change them with new ideas. It is going to be a hard time for you. The best thing would be to demo this with 1-1/2 handline and fog nozzle vs. the same layout with smooth bore. It would be better if you could get some 1-3/4' hose to show them and compare both lines.


    Even the chickens will come out in the rain after several days in the hen house!!!



    .
    You know, it is just amazing how much weight and influence two or three of these old timers with this type of mentality can pull around a fire department, and in this particular case these guys aren't even in positions of authority. Many of the younger guys just accept their reasoning like it was gospel.

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    I prefer smoothbore nozzles myself, but we won't go there. The absolute first thing that you need to do is get rid of those piece of schit adjustable-gallonage nozzles. Take them off the lines and throw them into a fire so that they melt down into an unrecognizable blob of molten metal.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Tough spot.

    I'm personally not a big beleiver in smooth bore nozzles for handlines. I much prefer fog, however, if all you have is adjustable gallonage fog, you are in a tight spot if you want to increase flow on an 1 1/2" line without going to a smooth bore.

    I take it that purchasing non-adjustable gallonage 1 1/2" nozzles is also not an option?

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    do your nozzles have different flow settings or are they fixed gallonage? Aso, are your 2 1/2" fog tips detachable (tip only with no shutoff?).

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    Do a side by side demo maybe? You have to have a Dept. around you with 1 3/4 that'll help.

    I assume you carry 2 1/2 and 3" lines. Ask the ones bringing up coupling size if you should get rid of the 3" because it has 2 1/2" couplings and should only flow what the 2 1/2" will flow according to their statements.

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    Take all the 1 1/2 hose off the engines and make the 2 1/2 the only lead out allowed at any fire. After a couple of weeks I'll bet 1 3/4 will look real good to everyone.
    Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CustomShields View Post
    Oh.... and absolutely NO pistol grip!!!
    Haha, this is the one area where I completely agree with these couple of old timers.... They refuse to consider pistol grips as well! At least they got something right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    Many of the guys think smooth bores are a joke because all they've seen and played with is the whooping 53gpm out of a 1/2" tip, or 18" of delicious stacked deluge tips on a 2-1/2" playpipe.
    Send them to me for a week, you think 1.75" messes them up? In my neck of the woods we use 2" hose with solid-bore nozzles using the 15/16" tip. Pump that at 70PSI NP, for close to 200gpm......I won't even throw in the CAFS, that would just plain melt their brains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    Take all the 1 1/2 hose off the engines and make the 2 1/2 the only lead out allowed at any fire. After a couple of weeks I'll bet 1 3/4 will look real good to everyone.
    I'm not fully convinced that the 1-1/2" hose isn't serviceable, i am convinced that it is no good with our current 100psi nozzles. We should still be able to get over 150gpm through it with smooth bores. Granted, I would prefer 1-3/4" but I also feel that 150gpm is very acceptable. It is at least a huge improvement over 95gpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    I'm not fully convinced that the 1-1/2" hose isn't serviceable, i am convinced that it is no good with our current 100psi nozzles. We should still be able to get over 150gpm through it with smooth bores. Granted, I would prefer 1-3/4" but I also feel that 150gpm is very acceptable. It is at least a huge improvement over 95gpm.
    I was half kidding. We use 1 3/4 with 150 gpm fogs and that 150 is almost always enough. If you can get 150 out of your 1 1/2, it seems like a change that would be well worth making and alot cheaper than getting all new hose.
    Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

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    In my very humble opinion there are only a few applications that I prefer a fog tip nozzle. 1) car fires, 2) LPG fire, 3) Hydraulic ventilation. You can achieve this option by keeping a fog nozzle in the compartment or high rise bag and swapping them in case of said situation. We run our engines with smoothbores, keeping fog tips in the highrise bag and driver compartment.

    I always shake my head at the "offers protection" argument. You should never find yourself in the situation that you would need to protect yourself during a flashover. Training is what keeps you out of a flashover, not a nozzle. And if the conditions start to deteriorate quickly, penciling the ceiling to cool the gasses offers a better solution than opening up a fog nozzle and disrupting the thermal layer.

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    We have the best of both worlds. We use an Akron Assault combination breakaway nozzle with a Sabre cutoff. The nozzleman can choose to keep the combination variable fog straight stream on, or he can simply screw it off, put it in his pocket and have a smooth bore at his disposal. It also allows for very easy hose line extension if needed. Just screw the tip off, add another secton of hose, and screw the cvfss back on the extended line. We chose the twist cutoff as well, so the nozzleman still has control over opening and closing the line if extended this way. You can choose from a variety of flows and pressures. Oh.... and absolutely NO pistol grip!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Sounds like you have real problems.

    Tactics being decided by "the membership" being the first big problem. Compounded by the fact that they are clearly uneducated in the topic at hand.
    This is a HUGE problem at our department. Actual "tactics" are up to the chief, but all purchasing goes through the membership. Over half of the voting membership are not even active emergency responders. It is hard for the chief and line officers like myself to implement changes when we can't purchase equipment. I'm pretty sure we can slip a few smooth bore tips by though. We have the shutoffs, but all we have for tips are 1/2" or huge deluge tips. Many of the guys think smooth bores are a joke because all they've seen and played with is the whooping 53gpm out of a 1/2" tip, or 18" of delicious stacked deluge tips on a 2-1/2" playpipe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Tough spot.

    I'm personally not a big beleiver in smooth bore nozzles for handlines. I much prefer fog, however, if all you have is adjustable gallonage fog, you are in a tight spot if you want to increase flow on an 1 1/2" line without going to a smooth bore.

    I take it that purchasing non-adjustable gallonage 1 1/2" nozzles is also not an option?

    I guess not as you guys don't go inside the building if its on fire. As I remember from a far back post you said that you don't and no one will go inside even if someone is in the structure even your wife, you guys stay outside. A fog nozzle and small 1-1/2 is just fine for booser parish. Maybe a booster hose would do and you can save water!!

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    Okay, if you have akron adjustable gallonage nozzles on your 1 1/2 inch lines why not just turn them up to 125 gpm? We used 1 1/2 inch turbojets for years on my volly FD and I know they had, 30, 60, 95, and 125 settings. For the average 1 or 2 rooms of fire in a dwelling that should be plenty. For dang sure it would be better than 95 gpm. Smooth bores are a great idea, love them, almost had them in here, but the chief said no.

    As for 1 3/4 inch hose if you are flowing less than 150 through it, and it really should be in the 180 to 250 range you are wasting it's potential and should save money and stick with 1 1/2.

    My volly FD uses 2 inch hose and we have 200 at 75 psi Elkhart low pressure break apart nozzles, backed with a 1 1/4 inch slug. With the combo we flow from 160 gpm at about 55 psi at the tip to 200 gpm with 75 psi at the tip. With the slug we flow around 300 gpm at about 40 psi.

    Not criticizing but my opinion is the 15/16 inch tip is borderline too small for the capability of 2 inch hose. Well unless you are using extremely long preconnects of 300 or more feet. We flow 300 gpm out to 300 foot on our preconnected 2 inch lines with the smoothbore.


    Frankly, I think the problem is far bigger than hose and nozzles. The chief needs to get back purchasing power from the membership. It is absolutely ridiculous that inactive members can vote down what the chief wants to buy. At the very least if the members don't meet some standard for active membership they should lose voting privilaeges. To me solving this issue is of far greater importance than fixing the hose and nozzle issue right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    I guess not as you guys don't go inside the building if its on fire. As I remember from a far back post you said that you don't and no one will go inside even if someone is in the structure even your wife, you guys stay outside. A fog nozzle and small 1-1/2 is just fine for booser parish. Maybe a booster hose would do and you can save water!!
    Interesting.

    I'm not going to go through the whole debate again, except to say that the only situations we have where SOPs prohibit us from entering are abondoned structures and truss commercial structures where we have reason to believe that there is fire or significant heat in the overhead space.

    Which by the way, represents less than 1 run per year.

    Every department I have served with has operated with fog nozzles. None have used smooth bores. While I have trained with them and understand thier basic principles, I beleive fog nozzles are the best way to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    My fire department is way behind the times in certain areas. One area that I would really like to address in the near future is our main pre-connect attack lines. We are currently using 250ft. 1-1/2" lines with Akron 100psi adjustable gallonage nozzles. The nozzles are set at 95gpm. We also carry 200ft. 2-1/2" lines with similar nozzles set at 250gpm.

    The last few residential fires we've ran on, we pulled the 2-1/2 first because 95gpm just won't cut it.

    Changing to 1-3/4" hose is out of question, there simply is not enough support amongst our voting members to spend the money. And many of our old timers just simply don't understand hydraulics... this is a common statement I get "why go to 1-3/4" hose, it still has 1-1/2" fittings, you can only get 1-1/2" of water through it". I'm a mechanical engineer by trade, and I understand fluid flow and hydraulics quite well, but there is simply no reasoning with these folks.

    So, I'm left with looking at other options. I personally prefer smooth bore nozzles, but this is highly debated in our department as well. Many of these same old timers feel that the fog nozzles offer them added protection, they must like becoming lobsters if they really think this.... but again, they are set in there ways. I think the best solution for us overall would be some low pressure break apart nozzles, but they are pricey and will be a hard sell. For now, I would like to experiment with only one of our preconnected lines. I am thinking of using a smooth bore with a 7/8" tip, we already have the shutoffs. My calculations show that this nozzle will deliver 151gpm at 44psi nozzle pressure with a pump discharge pressure of 186psi. Of course as with all smooth bores it can be pumped up or down a little as well.

    What do you guys think? Sound reasonable?
    Yup but good luck. We had the same debate but the old-timers said that there fathers used smooth bores until they went to the revolutionary adjustables thanks to the great nozzle sale people. Two thoughts: do you really need 250' of1.5" or could you reduce the pressure and use only 150' adding more as needed. Also could you borrow an old smooth bore and then try running both hoses through a tight course as you would find in a hallway into small rooms in a house fire. The smooth bore with less pressure will make tight turns easier for your nozzle man yet provide more gpm. Or you can buy a nozzle for $60/$100 and let your nozzle men play with it. Let us know how you make out. Today's fires need more than 95gpm to keep us safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    This is a HUGE problem at our department. Actual "tactics" are up to the chief, but all purchasing goes through the membership. Over half of the voting membership are not even active emergency responders. It is hard for the chief and line officers like myself to implement changes when we can't purchase equipment. I'm pretty sure we can slip a few smooth bore tips by though. We have the shutoffs, but all we have for tips are 1/2" or huge deluge tips. Many of the guys think smooth bores are a joke because all they've seen and played with is the whooping 53gpm out of a 1/2" tip, or 18" of delicious stacked deluge tips on a 2-1/2" playpipe.
    I suggest writing a few grants. A bit of basic detail that "ties your hands" on what nozzle you purchase with a successful grant.

    "we will replacie our obsolete fire hose nozzles with modern equipment by purchasing 4x _____________" Make the case in a few lines why you need new nozzles and throw in the language for specifics of what you want to buy. The grant committee won't care so don't over do it but you have to buy what the grant gave the $ for. Write for a dozen local grants and you're likely to get at least one thru. If you state has a wildland grant program can likely get $ for a partial grant for 1-1/2" nozzles.

    Get the equipment in the door and that will be Phase 1 complete.

    Do same for 1-3/4".

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    Quote Originally Posted by penman View Post
    Yup but good luck. We had the same debate but the old-timers said that there fathers used smooth bores until they went to the revolutionary adjustables thanks to the great nozzle sale people. Two thoughts: do you really need 250' of1.5" or could you reduce the pressure and use only 150' adding more as needed. Also could you borrow an old smooth bore and then try running both hoses through a tight course as you would find in a hallway into small rooms in a house fire. The smooth bore with less pressure will make tight turns easier for your nozzle man yet provide more gpm. Or you can buy a nozzle for $60/$100 and let your nozzle men play with it. Let us know how you make out. Today's fires need more than 95gpm to keep us safe.
    Yes, we have determined that 250' preconnects works best for us. We are in a rural setting and sometimes it is hard to get close to the fire building. We also have a large multi-building mental institution, through training we have determined that the 250' lines allow us to get anywhere in those buildings. Now why the 2-1/2" is only 200' is beyond me, maybe that is something else I can try to get changed.... after all, the friction loss in 2-1/2" is minimal compared to 1-1/2"

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    Yes, we have determined that 250' preconnects works best for us. We are in a rural setting and sometimes it is hard to get close to the fire building. We also have a large multi-building mental institution, through training we have determined that the 250' lines allow us to get anywhere in those buildings. Now why the 2-1/2" is only 200' is beyond me, maybe that is something else I can try to get changed.... after all, the friction loss in 2-1/2" is minimal compared to 1-1/2"
    Any chance of laying 100 feet of 2 1/2" and then coupling down to your 1 1/2" to balance out the last 150 foot? You'd drop your fl a bit, increase flow a bit as well.

    My department runs 150' and 200' - 1 3/4" preconnects with the Sabremaster nozzles. When we need a longer stretch, we drop 2 1/2" for the first 1/2 of the stretch, throw on a gated wye and get back in business with the smaller handline.

    Just a thought. And I agree with the prior statements of doing comparisons with the various types of nozzles and hoseline diameters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    Yes, we have determined that 250' preconnects works best for us. We are in a rural setting and sometimes it is hard to get close to the fire building. We also have a large multi-building mental institution, through training we have determined that the 250' lines allow us to get anywhere in those buildings. Now why the 2-1/2" is only 200' is beyond me, maybe that is something else I can try to get changed.... after all, the friction loss in 2-1/2" is minimal compared to 1-1/2"
    I work for a rural department and one of our cross lays is what we call a rural hitch. 150' of 2.5 with 150' of 1.5 connected to a gated wye.

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    The idea of leading out with larger hose for long stretches is excellent.

    Who does your specs, etc? Whose side is he on? I'm betting the stick-in-the-mud old timers wouldn't know how much the hose costs - they only know that you're asking for 1.75" vice 1.5". My vote goes for a little sleight of hand. 1.75" appears to be about $20 more than 1.5" for a 50' length. Just tell them you need X lengths of "attack line" at a cost of $Y per length (the cost of the 1.75"). Then buy the 1.75". The old-timers probably don't bother to read the numbers on the hose anyhow. Eventually, you'll have replaced your first line inventory, and can eventually replace all of the 1.5".

    As for nozzles - that's a matter of picking the appropriate tool for the job. FDNY likes a 13/16" straight tip - they feel it has better reach in their usual applications. Some folks will argue that a properly trimmed fog nozzle will do exactly the same.

    My department has a couple of straight tips available, but the preconnects on the engine (150' x 1.75", 200' x 1.75" and 150' x 3") all have Task Force Tips on them.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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