1. #1
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    Default Population question

    This has to do more with the cost/benefit ratio. We are going to apply for a tanker again. I have gone over and over our app and the points that I have about safety, old dilapidated vehicle apear to be right on the money. I think our problem is with the ratio. Of course until I can read the program guidance I may be jumping the gun a bit but.........

    Since we have signed mutual aid agreements which states we will provide water supply could I use their population as well to level out the ratio?

    Any assistance is appreciated. It is very hard for me to ask for help since I have been successful but I have seem to have ran into a lull on the AFG program.

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    In previous years you could only count runs for your own service area. There is a question about mutual aid provided & received.
    In your narrative is where you have to expand on the automatic aid to other departments for water supply. Also make it known that you have written agreements to provide this.

    We are in the same boat. We have an automatic tone for three departments for mutual aid for all structure fires for an engine to set up water supply and a tanker for water shuttle. We also send our cascade truck for rehab and air supply on auto aid, but can't count them in the numbers as first due calls.

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    Catch has it, can't pull it in for stats but in narratives everything is fair game as ammo.

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    What I typically do is figure the cost/benefit ratio, call volume, etc in the narrative for our district, then figure another one based on the population of our auto/mutual aid region. While it may not help you get past the computer, it does give the reviewer a picture of the overall impact of the project.

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    Catch has it, can't pull it in for stats but in narratives everything is fair game as ammo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geefireman View Post
    Does not make much sense as you need the truck regardless of whether you have 2000 people and 40 calls or 10,000 people and 100 calls. If fact you probably have more of a need as you do not have the population tax base either. CATCH 22!!!!
    That's my gripe as well. I know they need to come up with a scoring system to weed out the thousands of apps but it appears smaller, lower funded departments stand less of a chance that a more well funded department because of population.

    I was well below the cap as it was. I did not even apply for a very large tanker, only 2000 to 2200 gallons. Anything bigger would simply not work in our area.

    Oh well. I will keep trying though. I am currently also trying to find some other grant opportunities for this.

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    Thumbs down

    We were in the same boat. Applied for 4 years for the same replacement tanker. Ours was a 707,000 mile milk truck. Ran like crap, rusted, broken and unreliable!!

    Anyway, 2008 AFG was the first year they told you in the DJ about "too low call volume/too low population". The only way around the computer DJ for the ratio is to lower the price of the truck since you can not do anything about the other two--unless you start lighting fires or having babies :>).

    AND since you can not really lower the price of the truck, the only thing you can truly do is put more money in up front. We did and were funded in the 2009 AVG Vehicle Grant.

    Does not make much sense as you need the truck regardless of whether you have 2000 people and 40 calls or 10,000 people and 100 calls. If fact you probably have more of a need as you do not have the population tax base either. CATCH 22!!!!

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    Never been a question about whether or not it's needed, it comes down to where is the same $200k investment going to do more? Where it's going to get used more or sit more? The opposite effect is in here than in real estate, what we paid for this house I'm in now is less than half as much as it would cost now for me to buy back the townhouse me and the Mrs had in PA. More people also equals increased other costs, so sometimes less available funding. There's no single way to cover everyone at the same time, just like anything else. Have to aim for the middle of the road in order to do the most good. Overall rural departments get more money than anyone else, but also stick in the most apps so of course more denials.

    And even the 2008 low call/population was a relative thing, comparing one app to the average of those awarded asking for the same thing. Wasn't definitive just like this year's DJs.

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    You know I do not know if anyone else is having this problem or not but my post was after geefireman's post but came up showing about an hour before. Anyone know why this is happening?

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    May not have the time zone setting correct in gee's profile. It converts to the FH.com server time based on those settings so if he's off by an hour it will post out of order. When they screwed mine up in one of the updates a few years ago it set me to EST instead of CST and did the same thing.

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    Yeah, when it comes to us low population, low call departments, we are up against the wall when it comes to getting vehicle awards.

    With the issue of the AFG software this year, who knows what else may happen.

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    My question is is what is the diffrence between rural and suburban? My district is a small town population 3500 and 5.5 sq miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbailey399 View Post
    My question is is what is the diffrence between rural and suburban? My district is a small town population 3500 and 5.5 sq miles.
    take the same population and put it in 100 or 200 square miles

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    I have seen a department that covers 0.6 square miles with 442 people that is surrounded by a city with a paid department get $261,250 for a new engine.The cost benefit on that would be out of this world.Its not about how good your application is or how low your cost benefit is. Its about how powerful you local representatives are and how much you suck up to them or pay them.

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    Another way around it is if you can get a good used truck chassis then apply for the tank and accessories through AFG under the equipment section. Thats how we got our 2,000 gallon tanker. We got a chassis through the DOD program and the grant paid for the 2,000 tank, fills, dump valves, dump tanks etc. Yes I know it's not a fancy new shiny tanker but that doesn't put fire out water does, and the water doesn't care if it rides in a 1990 truck of a 2010 truck. ( after all the tank would be new lol)
    Last edited by volfireman034; 04-22-2010 at 08:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302 View Post
    You know I do not know if anyone else is having this problem or not but my post was after geefireman's post but came up showing about an hour before. Anyone know why this is happening?
    I've been getting this for several days. It's hard to follow when the person answering your post appears before yours even though it is several hours later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    May not have the time zone setting correct in gee's profile. It converts to the FH.com server time based on those settings so if he's off by an hour it will post out of order. When they screwed mine up in one of the updates a few years ago it set me to EST instead of CST and did the same thing.
    You might be on to something here. In my little "welcome" note, it is 1 hour behind. At the bottom of the screens it has the correct time. I can not for the life of me find how to set or change the time. Do you? I have been down through the CP 3 times already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geefireman View Post
    You might be on to something here. In my little "welcome" note, it is 1 hour behind. At the bottom of the screens it has the correct time. I can not for the life of me find how to set or change the time. Do you? I have been down through the CP 3 times already.
    My posts always show 5 hours ahead of actual time. you get used to it.

    What I have tried to do however is to figure out how I can include our largest in employer in 6 counties in my first due area. I share a zipcode with them and my population is 148. The business has 1200 employees.

    I just don't feel comfortable claiming them as first due from that standpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    Another way around it is if you can get a good used truck chassis then apply for the tank and accessories through AFG under the equipment section. Thats how we got our 2,000 gallon tanker. We got a chassis through the DOD program and the grant paid for the 2,000 tank, fills, dump valves, dump tanks etc. Yes I know it's not a fancy new shiny tanker but that doesn't put fire out water does, and the water doesn't care if it rides in a 1990 truck of a 2010 truck. ( after all the tank would be new lol)
    This caught my attention as way to get our C/B ratio down, how would you classify this under the choices for equipment, othe specialized equipment? Would you have to spec it all out or just give a good general description of a complete tanker body set on your chassis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302 View Post
    This has to do more with the cost/benefit ratio. We are going to apply for a tanker again. I have gone over and over our app and the points that I have about safety, old dilapidated vehicle apear to be right on the money. I think our problem is with the ratio. Of course until I can read the program guidance I may be jumping the gun a bit but.........

    Since we have signed mutual aid agreements which states we will provide water supply could I use their population as well to level out the ratio?

    Any assistance is appreciated. It is very hard for me to ask for help since I have been successful but I have seem to have ran into a lull on the AFG program.
    A lot of the suggestions given are spot on, especially about throwing more money at the front end of the project to lower the cost the computer uses to figure competitive range on cost benefit and frequency of use.

    However; I did notice something in your post though that caught my eye. I noticed you spent a lot of time stating the "safety" issues of the truck and I have seen far to many people focus their entire application on just those points.

    These are in fact symptoms of the actual underlying problem that you have and you should be sure that you are focusing attention to that. The problem you have is not an unsafe tanker, the problem you have is an inadequate water supply.

    Be sure that you do not miss that point in your narrative and pay close attention that you are putting an accurate number in the box for percentage of hydrant coverage in the front end questions on the grant. I have seen many people just guess at their hydrant coverage and not actually spend the time to figure this out accurately. Once they did it they discovered their hydrant coverage was much less than originally thought,

    Just food for thought.
    Kurt Bradley
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    Whats a fire hydrant ????
    Nearest hydrant is 19 miles one way. :-}
    Us rural folks need to promote the need to carry all the water we use and to have a pump
    of sufficient capacity to self load or relay pump to the attack engine.

    Nothing worse than sitting at a water supply while your anemic <750 pump sips at the water to refill the tank.

    Just venting a little about someone up in wonderland not understanding what is needed in a water hauler in rural areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Whats a fire hydrant ????
    Nearest hydrant is 19 miles one way. :-}
    Us rural folks need to promote the need to carry all the water we use and to have a pump
    of sufficient capacity to self load or relay pump to the attack engine.

    Nothing worse than sitting at a water supply while your anemic <750 pump sips at the water to refill the tank.

    Just venting a little about someone up in wonderland not understanding what is needed in a water hauler in rural areas.
    I hear you man!LOL
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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