Thread: Please poll[

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    This sucks anyway you slice it, but I would say shut down one of the engines since you have ten others in your dept.




    Edit.. How in the hell my post came out above the original one I don't know
    Last edited by Itshotinhere; 04-25-2010 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default Please poll[

    Language changes in our new contract called for the shutting down of rigs- up to 8 hrs- before calling in OT to curtail overhead expenses.My poll question is:In your opinion which rig should be shut down? An engine w/ 3 personnel and full EMS and suppression capability,a Quint w/ 3 personnel and full EMS and suppression capability or a Heavy rescue w/4 personnel full EMS, extrication equipment and hand tools but no pump or ladders for suppression.These rigs are located in central fire house, an additional 10 engines and 3 Quints placed throughout the city. Thanks for your time and input.

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    I think usage would play a big part in deciding which one.

    It looks like your Heavy Rescue is the only one in the city. If it's used a lot, probably not a good idea.

    How are you primarily using the Quint? As a ladder or as an Engine? Does it roll on the same calls in areas covered by an Engine also?

    I'm hesitant to suggest taking apparatus out of service because if it doesn't negatively affect your service much, the powers that be may view it as a viable alternative to permanently remove it from service.

    Other possibilities...
    - What about reducing staffing on some of the lower usage apparatus? For instance, reduce the Rescue's staffing to 3 or 2. I know our Rescue practically NEVER runs on anything by itself, so you might be able to accomplish the same task with 2 people on the Rescue and an Engine.
    - Can a Chief lose a driver?
    - If the shortage is known in advance, can an admin person go back to shift to coverage the shortage? (might not be allowed in your bargaining agreement)
    - Shift trades... instead of approving people's time off for things like off-site training, tell them they have to arrange a shift trade to make sure there is coverage.

    Just some thoughts. Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itshotinhere View Post
    This sucks anyway you slice it, but I would say shut down one of the engines since you have ten others in your dept.




    Edit.. How in the hell my post came out above the original one I don't know
    I would have to agree. Since you have only one heavy rescue, I don't think that's the wisest. And with the quint, while it can't do the job of the engine as well, it can still flow water if needed...whereas the engine couldn't do the trucks job, for the most part. Plus, you have another 10 engines in the city.

    And just FYI Itshotinhere, there have been a lot of troubles over the past days with misordered posts...you're not the only one.

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    I would shut down the engine company. I wouldn't want to give up the aerial or the heavy rescue capabilities, especially if a firefighter's life depended on it. Since the aerial is a quint, there is your water movement capability.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    I was just wondering how closing companies got into your contract. You don't have to say here, but I say don't give "them" any assistance in deciding what to cut. All you need is a fatal fire or serious FF injury in a closed companies area and the city will point fingers at the union saying they said that house could be closed. By agreeing to one closure, that's the tip of the wedge to close another. I say, Fk'em. Let the ones who decided to close a company decide where it's done and take all the responsibility.

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    Could the quint function as an engine in it's first due?

    That way you could shut down an engine and still have engine company capabilities?

    Are the tools permanently mounted on the heavy or can they be removed and placed on an engine if the quint is shutdown?

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    Our FD is going through the same numbers/money game to a degree. If a couple FF's are off or call in sick, manpower changes across the board. To save money, they don't call anybody in to collect OT. So with that, Central has 2 engines and 2 med units. It ends up either the engine is OOS, or the med unit is. Or BOTH !!! This isn't being done by any contract, but is being done to help cut the costs of the FD.

    For the OP, I would shut down an engine company. You're not sacrificing pumping operations, but you do keep a ladder truck. As for EMS support, it looks like you are well covered in that aspect. A Rescue rig should never be taken out of service, PERIOD.

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    I'm with Len, put that decision squarely on the backs of the Politicians. (There's room, since there's no Backbone to get in the way) I apologize for drifting off Track, but a couple of things are in need of enlightenment. One, how did the Local get into a mess like this? and Two, The Heavy Rescue: A couple of Posters have questioned that Service, and since I'm kinda touchy on that subject, I'd like to speak out on it............ This is solely my opinion, and I understand clearly that what works at point "A" will not work at point "B"................

    Anyone that has a Heavy Rescue should have it staffed as heavily as possible. EVERYBODY has a job to do, and robbing an Engine or Truck Company to beef up the Rescue Company doesn't do anything but shift the responsibility for the work. If a Rescue Company isn't Busy, something needs to be adjusted. In fact, in my neck of the Woods, the Rescue Companies are usually busier than the Truck Companies around them. Heavy Rescues should be Staffed, Equipped, Trained, and Busy.... They represent a big investment, so they should be paying big dividends..........
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    I would try to pick the 2 slowest engine companies and run them with 2 members. And maybe run the slowest quint with 2. If you run 4 on the heavy rescue I would also cut that to 3 members per shift. Keep the other 8 engines with 3, and the other 3 quint's with 3. Maybe you could have an ambulance company (1. if you have ambos 2. if your paramedics are also firefighters) to meet up with those short staffed engines/quint at a job to make 3-4. I know it really sucks to only have 2 on an engine/quint, but it is a lot better then not having that rig at all. As history has shown, once a dept looses a company due to cuts, it is very very hard for that dept to ever get that company back into service, once (if ever haha) this economy makes a come back. If the economy does turn around then you could put the 3rd man back on those companies that have been riding "short" with two members. 1 problem I see though is if your engines/quint's are ALS you would have to make sure the more senior members (the engineer and officer are medics) to keep that rig ALS status. If your 3rd man (the newer members) are usually the medics on the engine/quint's you may have a problem, and may have to move some engineers/officers around who are medics onto those companies. You could always make those rigs BLS for the time being if 1 of the shifts does not have a medic as a engineer or officer. Just take the mointer, drugs, intubation equip., and IVs off, and put them back on when your engineer/officer is a medic. Not a perfect solution but not as bad as closing companies IMO
    Last edited by TruckSixFF; 04-26-2010 at 09:04 PM.
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    Not posted is the rescue responds only to commercial alarms.fires ,res. and garage fires and rarely for EMS.What makes it "heavy" is the extrication eq. which is used mainly for training

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruckSixFF View Post
    I would try to pick the 2 slowest engine companies and run them with 2 members. And maybe run the slowest quint with 2. I know it really sucks to only have 2 on an engine/quint, but it is a lot better then not having that rig at all. Not a perfect solution but not as bad as closing companies IMO
    If you tell the public a rig showed with reduced manpower they'll say exactly that...Better than none...and you won't get much support. But if you tell them no apparatus showed because it's closed, that could open their eyes

    I know I cut part of your statement, but if I read this correct you'll have one person at the pump panel and one all alone advancing a line into a burning building. Even "slow" companies get in first due with people trapped. I feel dropping manning is worse than dropping a company.
    . . 1 in 1 out doesn't cut it.

    .
    Last edited by len1582; 04-26-2010 at 04:52 PM.

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    nevermind..........
    Last edited by len1582; 04-26-2010 at 08:51 PM. Reason: moved

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruckSixFF View Post
    I am sorry, I read the OPs post wrong. I would not "short staff" 3 engines, and 1 quint with 2. I would just short staff 1 engine with 2. I read the post wrong and misunderstood that he was asking if we would cut an engine,quint, or rescue. In this case like I said I would ride an engine with 2 for the time being instead of closing it. Hopefully you have ambos where one of their guys can jump over on scene of a fire and give that engine 3. I would rather have this engine still in service then close it. Atleast the engine is still in service for ems runs, crashes, etc. Like I said I would pick the the engine that is the slowest in runs, and fire duty.
    Sorry but I still respectfully dissagree with you. Even slower companies in my city get their occational first due work. What would be your initial plan of attack at a W/F with two people? Screw waitimg for an ambulance to supplement your manpower. They're probably dealing with some patient and can't help you until they transport and restock all the crap they used. I'm definately against closing, but if the city is going to screw with you go close something and keep up manpower on the rigs.

    This is supposed to be down below.
    Last edited by len1582; 04-26-2010 at 08:53 PM. Reason: confused with placement

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    I am sorry, I read the OPs post wrong. I would not "short staff" 3 engines, and 1 quint with 2. I would just short staff 1 engine with 2. I read the post wrong and misunderstood that he was asking if we would cut an engine,quint, or rescue. In this case like I said I would ride an engine with 2 for the time being instead of closing it. Hopefully you have ambos where one of their guys can jump over on scene of a fire and give that engine 3. I would rather have this engine still in service then close it. Atleast the engine is still in service for ems runs, crashes, etc. Like I said I would pick the the engine that is the slowest in runs, and fire duty.
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