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  1. #41
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer534 View Post
    That's because the fires we fight are different from the ones you fought. Highter btus, tighter construction, etc. mean that you cannot be in the same compartment when "some pretty serious temperature rises" and apply a fog stream. It is unacceptable to get steam burned in this manner and an improper tactic. I agree there are some great applications for the fog stream, but not while I'm in the same compartment as high heat.
    Hmmmn,EVER hear of a thing called a VENT? OPEN the room to the outside and push the fire out.WHICH you CAN do with a fog.OR you can go in and roll around with a straight stream.OR pencil if you wanna study fire behavior.WE'VE(for the most part)LOST the art of AGGRESSIVE venting. Got bigger lines,better nozzles,and better gear.So WHY do the Btu's matter? BECAUSE we ARE NOT giving the Btu's a WAY OUT. And YES you CAN use a fog stream in a "compartment" as long as you make a NICE HOLE for it to go out. Done it MANY times. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-11-2010 at 09:55 AM.


  2. #42
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    Would you use that same stream if it wasnt vented?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer534 View Post
    Would you use that same stream if it wasnt vented?
    Lessee,40+ years on the Job says I don't do a pile of Interior anymore.DOING it for half my career in 3/4's and rubber would probably say NO, I wouldn't fog a closed compartment unless I could shut the door quick. WHY would you NOT vent a WORKING FIRE? For SO many reasons. Much easier to put a piece of plywood over a hole than bake a crew. Plus visibility goes UP,TEMPS come DOWN,So many reasons to OPEN UP. Why wouldn't you take advantage of ALL of them? T.C.

  4. #44
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer534 View Post
    Would you use that same stream if it wasnt vented?
    Well, that depends.

    1) If you are doing a true indirect attack then yes. From outside the room inject the fog stream into the overhead in the fire room to get steam being produced. CLOSE THE DOOR. This allows the steam to work to cool, and even more dramtically, to smother the fire.

    2) If I was in the fire room, and it was not vented, the answer is an emphatic NO! I have seen guys use a fog in an unvented room and have the steam forcefully push the by products of fire, as well as steam, down on the crew or even out the door onto the crew in the hall.

    To me the answer is clear. Other than short pulses into the overhead for cooling a fog should NOT be used in an unvented room with victims OR firefighters in the room.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    NO, I wouldn't fog a closed compartment unless I could shut the door quick.
    Not sure how that's any different than what I said.

  6. #46
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer534 View Post
    That's because the fires we fight are different from the ones you fought. Highter btus, tighter construction, etc. mean that you cannot be in the same compartment when "some pretty serious temperature rises" and apply a fog stream. It is unacceptable to get steam burned in this manner and an improper tactic. I agree there are some great applications for the fog stream, but not while I'm in the same compartment as high heat.
    There's your QUOTE."NOT WHILE I'M IN THE COMPARTMENT". My SUGGESTION was: IF you VENT properly,it doesn't make a schit WHICH stream you use. If you Don't........Well,different story. THAT is the difference. To date,I've been able to "UNTIGHT" every type of construction besides solid concrete(Rare in this area)More prevalent in YOUR area. But I agree with Kuhshise,there are many ways to accomplish the same mission. And SOME of us have done SIGNIFICANT fires in thinner PPE than is worn today. AND,gasp,PUT THEM OUT. WITHOUT INJURY. Just another thought for the "Can't do it crowd". Yup,It's BEEN done. T.C.

  7. #47
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    No my quote was "not while I'm in the same compartment as high heat". This would probably be due to not enough ventilation.

    I'm not trying to argue against ventilation. That wasnt what the discussion was about. It turned into using a fog pattern in a compartment with high heat and accepting that you are going to get steam burned as just the way it is.

    Proper venting would solve this problem and I agree with you 100%. It's just that we were talking about something different.

    By the way, I have the utmost respect for you guys who have been around the block and I'm not trying to take anything away from that. I just hope people realize that fires are different now.

    Gotta be honest though: venting or no venting - I'm using a straight steam to knock down the fire if I'm in the same compartment.

  8. #48
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    "I just hope people realize that fires are different now."
    Unfortunately many people, officers and chiefs included, don't realize that.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    There's your QUOTE."NOT WHILE I'M IN THE COMPARTMENT". My SUGGESTION was: IF you VENT properly,it doesn't make a schit WHICH stream you use. If you Don't........Well,different story. THAT is the difference. To date,I've been able to "UNTIGHT" every type of construction besides solid concrete(Rare in this area)More prevalent in YOUR area. But I agree with Kuhshise,there are many ways to accomplish the same mission. And SOME of us have done SIGNIFICANT fires in thinner PPE than is worn today. AND,gasp,PUT THEM OUT. WITHOUT INJURY. Just another thought for the "Can't do it crowd". Yup,It's BEEN done. T.C.
    Yep, we sure did put fires out with thinner PPE than is worn today. Guys also suffered more steam burns, more compression burns from the SCBA straps, or from turning their body and the gear getting tight.

    I have been around 33 years and my first turnout coat was RUBBER, my first boots 3/4's, my first helmet an MSA melt away, and first gloves a pair of insulated work gloves. Did we put out fire dressed like that? Hell yes we did. Would I go back to that PPE or those tactics? Not a friggin chance.

    The simple fact is this, truck work is the first eliminated in budget cuts in smaller departments. Is it right? Not by any means, but it is true. One or two man trucks simply don't cut it when it comes to laddering, searching, venting, salvage, and overhaul. Ventilation has become in many places an afterthought. I am NOT defending that in the least. Just stating facts.

    I have long wondered why we teach guys to crawl into the fire room when a hose stream has a reach exceeding 50 feet or more. Stay at the doorway and knockdown the main body of fire. Advance to complete extinguishment. If you were lucky enough to have had venting completed it makes the job so much easier.

    The we used to do it this way and it worked argument is really not a valid one. Heck the fire service used to use hand and steam pumpers and they put fires out with those. Just because we used to do something doesn't make it right for today.

    I consider myself an aggressive interior firefighter. But that does not mean I feel the need to crawl on top of the fire to prove it or put out the fire.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #50
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Spence,We're really NOT that far off. And I agree with the majority of your points. The ONLY SB's we have here are on the Dueces and two(2) Half and half Akrons on the Quint. My MAJOR bitch is youngsters telling me "You CAN'T"; When,IN FACT,I know otherwise.

    Fyred,I'd go back to my old gear style(with my LAST long coat,NOT rubber) in a heartbeat(with different gloves and my present helmet)PROVIDED: That I had the people with the skill sets we had then AND the quantity of people. Not a big fan of the new gear and NEVER will be. Yes,I know it's necessary and we will keep wearing it,myself included.In terms of how we do things today,yeah I have the same questions.

    Penman,I keep hearing about how fires are different today. As a pretty well read Chief,it isn't the plastics and synthetics that bother me,it's the unknown schit I can't see:like the labs,propane tanks IN the house and othe stupid stuff people do. We STILL aggressively ventilate(INCLUDING verticle when neccessary)and that plastic laden room goes out just like the old Farmhouses did. Of course we're packing Class A laden Hi flo-nozzles on 1.75 or bigger lines. Fire STILL goes verticle or looks for the nearest OUT so the BASIC rules of battle haven't changed all that much. WHAT IS A WORRY is all this LIGHTWEIGHT, FF killing junk they "Build" a house out of. DISPOSABLE and here,they are treated that way.Being a "small" community we are able to see what and where these are built which is an advantage in the event of a fire. In a few years it will be somebody elses headache anyway,what I set out to do here is nearly finished.It's time for the next Generation of "experts"to come in and show us all the stuff we did wrong. T.C.

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