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    Default Stream penetration in house fires

    Not to start the combination vs. smoothbore debate again, but is there really that big of a difference in stream reach/penetration in the typical (i know bad word choice) private dwelling fires. These are small areas with limited fire loads. Do I really need a smoothbore to shoot across a living room? or down a hall? If we're hitting a room from the doorway area, in most houses that's 15 ft tops, probably closer to 8-12 ft.

    I really don't want to start the whole debate over again, I just want to focus on this one facet of the combo vs. smoothbore discussion. In tight quarters like this, is the difference in penetration appreciable? As we get into bigger spaces or taller buildings where that apartment could be wind driven the penetration may be more important, but I just question it for many 1-4 family dwelling fires or for row houses, garden apartments etc. Instances where the stream isn't traveling very far before it hits something.

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    I think if it's that small, water is water. I'd be interested to hear people's experience with how fast the straight vs solid stream converts to steam in close quarters like that though.

    I still prefer a smooth bore for inside and an automatic for outside (cars, brush, etc)
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    Personally, in using both for a few years...I have yet to see a need for the greater penetration in fires as you state above. I have had better luck venting with an adjustable over the smooth bore.

    My choice remains the adjustable stream nozzle.
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    In small depts. with fewer structure fires I think the smoothbore keeps things simple. We never know who will be on the nozzle, will their adrenalin make them forget their training and steam their fellow firefighters because they saw a youtube video or will they bring the smoke down to the floor and not see other dangers.

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    We have smooth bore nozzles available in the engineer's compartment on each truck (although I've never seen anyone use one except in training), but all the crosslays are set up with the adjustable as the attached nozzle. We even have adjustables on the deck gun and aerials. Both SUIT OUR NEEDS perfectly. Big emphasis on our needs. Both nozzles will get the reach we need in every situation we can imagine in our city. The adjustable gives us a little more versatility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zzyyzx View Post
    We have smooth bore nozzles available in the engineer's compartment on each truck (although I've never seen anyone use one except in training), but all the crosslays are set up with the adjustable as the attached nozzle. We even have adjustables on the deck gun and aerials. Both SUIT OUR NEEDS perfectly. Big emphasis on our needs. Both nozzles will get the reach we need in every situation we can imagine in our city. The adjustable gives us a little more versatility.
    I have to politely disagree with the choice of nozzle for the deck gun. I have personal experience with the combo nozzle on a deck gun on straight stream not being able to go 75 feet to hit a fire in high winds. I switched the tip out to a smoothbore and the stream not only reached the fire but knocked it down. To me the combo nozzle on a master stream is a specialty tool. Exposure protection, or cooling a propane tank, or gross decon, to name a few.

    The purpose of a master stream in fire attack is a heavy, hard hitting, high gallonage stream to hit right into the heart of the fire. A solid stream will always do a better job of that than a combo nozzle. Especially in high winds or at longer ranges.
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    Okay this out of order posting thing is just getting stupid now.

    Can the webteam here ever fix anything? I am so much happier with this completely ****ed up update they have installed.
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    The one advantage that a smoothbore has over a combo nozzle is that you never have to wonder what pattern the nozzle is on.

    I don't care how careful you are if you don't check the pattern on a combo nozzle before you open the nozzle you have good chance of the pattern being changed. And the funny thing is it is almost always changed to a wide fog from being dragged on the floor during the advance. It has become such an issue in the training tower where I teach that i teach the students to go all the way right and back a third of a turn before entering the fire area to ensure they are on a straight stream.

    Personally, the stream difference between a low pressure combo nozzle straight stream and a smoothbore nozzle stream is so negligible as to be unnnoticeable in actual use.

    In a residential fire, with normal sized rooms, the choice of nozzle is far less important than a nozzle person skilled enough to know the right pattern to chose, where to put the water, and perhaps even more importantly, when to shut the nozzle off.
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    Both work well all over the world each day. I personally like the simplistic smoothbore as it has two moving parts and far less to go wrong. I know if my stream is decent or not and I choose my nozzle based on it's ability to extinguish, not ventilate.

    As for the actual question, it's likely that in most PD's the reach and penetration will not be an issue, but will you switch nozzles when you roll up to a McMansion or large multiple dwelling? Why not bring the gun that almost always wins the fight vs. the one that may be sized appropriately for the fight?

    But for the record, we've been fighting this fight right here in our FD for years and only now are switching to all smoothbores on preconnects and tipped out loads. We've always kept SB's on everything 2.5" and larger. Fogs are available for everything and will be for vapor cloud dispersement, gross decon and some exposure protection as was mentioned previously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    Not to start the combination vs. smoothbore debate again, but is there really that big of a difference in stream reach/penetration in the typical (i know bad word choice) private dwelling fires. These are small areas with limited fire loads. Do I really need a smoothbore to shoot across a living room? or down a hall? If we're hitting a room from the doorway area, in most houses that's 15 ft tops, probably closer to 8-12 ft.

    I really don't want to start the whole debate over again, I just want to focus on this one facet of the combo vs. smoothbore discussion. In tight quarters like this, is the difference in penetration appreciable? As we get into bigger spaces or taller buildings where that apartment could be wind driven the penetration may be more important, but I just question it for many 1-4 family dwelling fires or for row houses, garden apartments etc. Instances where the stream isn't traveling very far before it hits something.
    Either one will work fine if you flow adequate water on a fire.

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    Speaking on nozzles, we use elkhart sm-30 with breakaway tips. A TFT salesman is trying to get his foot in the door.


    We keep our nozzles well maintained and have had no problems. They make really good compact straight streams, in fact I would put them against any smoothbore on a 1.75.

    Is a task force tip automatic a good nozzle, And would it be worth the money to change?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itshotinhere View Post
    Speaking on nozzles, we use elkhart sm-30 with breakaway tips. A TFT salesman is trying to get his foot in the door.


    We keep our nozzles well maintained and have had no problems. They make really good compact straight streams, in fact I would put them against any smoothbore on a 1.75.

    Is a task force tip automatic a good nozzle, And would it be worth the money to change?

    Thanks
    If your sm-30's are working fine for you there is no benefit to changing.

    The TFT is a good nozzle and does exactly what it is supposed to do. Unfortunately, they are also maintenace intensive. If you do not do the maintenance and lubrication as required by TFT they will not function properly. The funny thing is I always ask in FD's where I am teaching that have TFT's if they have been maintained and lubricated. I always get the same blank deer in the headlights look. So in my unofficial poll i would guestimate that the vast majority of TFT automatic nozzles are not functioning properly.

    My advice, stay with what you have. They are good nozzles.
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    Elkhart salesman came to us a couple years ago. Swore up and down how his nozzles would outperform our TFT's. Got the flow meter going. He left with his toys still in their box. And funny thing is....we did zero maintenance on our TFT's and they still worked. Maybe we were just lucky.

    We did, after another year and more searching/testing change to Akron break apart nozzles. 75 psi/175 gpm adjustable tip that can be removed for a smooth bore at 7/8" I believe. With OUR lines and flow meter, we pump at 110psi and get 160gpm with the adjustable tip on or 170gpm without the tip.

    Gives guys their choice and adequate flow.

    I HIGHLY recommend flow testing meters with your equipment and hose. Gets you the true numbers and not calculations and formulas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Elkhart salesman came to us a couple years ago. Swore up and down how his nozzles would outperform our TFT's. Got the flow meter going. He left with his toys still in their box. And funny thing is....we did zero maintenance on our TFT's and they still worked. Maybe we were just lucky.

    We did, after another year and more searching/testing change to Akron break apart nozzles. 75 psi/175 gpm adjustable tip that can be removed for a smooth bore at 7/8" I believe. With OUR lines and flow meter, we pump at 110psi and get 160gpm with the adjustable tip on or 170gpm without the tip.

    Gives guys their choice and adequate flow.

    I HIGHLY recommend flow testing meters with your equipment and hose. Gets you the true numbers and not calculations and formulas.
    IF you ran entirely municipal water through your TFT's it is entirely possible that you did not run into the issues I am talking about. Or maybe you were just plain lucky. The vast majority of FD's I teach in run at least some rural ops and some use water from lakes, streams, ponds and so forth.

    I can tell you I have run tests with flow meters and inline pressure gauges and one incident stands out for me. I had a 50 to 350 gpm TFT on a line from a rural FD and it would always start out at 70 psi at the tip when you first opened it. NO, it was not a hi/low psi nozzle, it was a 100 psi nozzle. The only way to get it to flow at 100 psi was to open the nozzle to flush. But once you shut it down it went back to 70 psi when you opened it again. Of course no routine maintenance had been done to the nozzles since they had been purchased.

    I guess I am curious though if the TFT's worked so well why you changed to a single gallonage low pressure nozzle with a break apart slug tip? It would seem that you dropped your available flow with your nozzle choice over your TFT's.

    My volly FD used Akron Turbojets for years on our 1 1/2 inch hose. They were and in my opinion are a good solid nozzle. For many FD's the coordination necessary between pump operator and nozzleman to get the right flow is simply too much to ask for. Then we moved to 1 3/4 inch hose and we kept the same nozzles for a while until the chief decided we would go to TFT's. We used TFT's for several years and almost universally the guys didn't like them. Mostly because of nozzle reaction whenever we tried to flow over 150 gpm. So the search was on again. In the meantime we tried 2 inch hose and the guys actually loved the stuff so we moved in that direction but decided we needed different nozzles. So we did testing with flow meters and inline pressure gauges. We tested the TFT's, the dual pressure TFT's, Akron nozzles, and Elhart low pressure nozzles. In the end we went with the Elkhart Chiefs flowing 200 at 75 psi and a 1 1/4 inch slug tip flowing 300 at just over 40 psi at the tip. We underpump initially to get 160 through the combo tip, we can go to 200, or we can drop the combo and flow 300 through the slug. Determining what you want to do, doing your own testing with no salespeople involved, and then trying out what you think is right under actual or simulated fireground conditions, is the proper way to buy equipment in my humble opinion.
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    I have to say we have used TFT's for, gosh... 20 years or close to it. Some of those original nozzles are still in service.

    NO regular maintenance and I can't think of one time we had a problem with one.

    We run with city water in the tanks but draft or use a tanker shuttle at most fires.

    I'm not a mark for the TFT people, just relaying our experience.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    I think if it's that small, water is water. I'd be interested to hear people's experience with how fast the straight vs solid stream converts to steam in close quarters like that though.
    If it's that small an area, a room or two, and you put the fire out right away there really isn't much of a steam issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I have to say we have used TFT's for, gosh... 20 years or close to it. Some of those original nozzles are still in service.

    NO regular maintenance and I can't think of one time we had a problem with one.

    We run with city water in the tanks but draft or use a tanker shuttle at most fires.

    I'm not a mark for the TFT people, just relaying our experience.
    Well, if you have had those nozzles for 20 years and never maintained them you are NOT following TFT's maintenance schedule. They suggest periodic maintenance and lubrication of the internal parts. Maybe they aren't used enough to matter or maybe you have just been lucky that no problems have occurred.

    I am no TFT hater, just stating MY experiences with them. Frankly the way the salespeople sold them around here they could have been selling snake oil out of the same briefcase. They do what they are supposed to when they work right. They are not anymore mystical or magical than anyone else's automatic nozzle.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-06-2010 at 04:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    IF you ran entirely municipal water through your TFT's it is entirely possible that you did not run into the issues I am talking about. Or maybe you were just plain lucky. The vast majority of FD's I teach in run at least some rural ops and some use water from lakes, streams, ponds and so forth...

    I guess I am curious though if the TFT's worked so well why you changed to a single gallonage low pressure nozzle with a break apart slug tip? It would seem that you dropped your available flow with your nozzle choice over your TFT's.

    ...
    We run salty ocean water through our nozzles. I'd like to say they get flushed out, but not always the case. Yes, the pumps get flushed out.

    Why the change? Guys complained about the stiffness of the hose. Other guys swore we needed smoothbores. We hadn't looked in a while at anything new, so we went openminded and tested some stuff. The Akron's made everyone happy as they had the choice, in their own hands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well, if you have had those nozzles for 20 years and never maintained them you are NOT following TFT's maintenance schedule. They suggest periodic maintenance and lubrication of the internal parts. Maybe they aren't used enough to matter or maybe you have just been lucky that no problems have occurred.
    Yes, we have not followed their maintenance procedures. Yes, they aren't used enough.

    Could be luck that the 20 or so nozzles have never had a problem.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Yes, we have not followed their maintenance procedures. Yes, they aren't used enough.

    Could be luck that the 20 or so nozzles have never had a problem.
    Hell I don't give a crap what you do.

    My volly FD has always flushed and back flushed nozzles after every use. Checked operation of the bail and the pattern adjustment to make sure they move easily.

    I guess I am curious as to how you know they are working right if you never maintain them. Have you ever put a flow meter on them? Or an inline pressure gauge to see if the operating pressure was right? The one disadvantage of the automatic is a good looking stream that tells you nothing about flow or pressure.

    One big plus for TFT's is the fast turn around on repairs. Now that is awesome performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Hell I don't give a crap what you do.

    My volly FD has always flushed and back flushed nozzles after every use. Checked operation of the bail and the pattern adjustment to make sure they move easily.

    I guess I am curious as to how you know they are working right if you never maintain them. Have you ever put a flow meter on them? Or an inline pressure gauge to see if the operating pressure was right? The one disadvantage of the automatic is a good looking stream that tells you nothing about flow or pressure.

    One big plus for TFT's is the fast turn around on repairs. Now that is awesome performance.
    Excellent point about running an actual flow test. but it's hard to convince people when they see a nice stream running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Hell I don't give a crap what you do.
    That's fine. I really wouldn't expect you (or anyone on here) to really care.

    We don't routinely flow test our nozzles. Is that really a common practice?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    I was reviewing the instructions for the TFT Nozzles. There is no regular maintenance schedule. There is no recommendation for flow testing.

    There was this bit, "The moving parts of the nozzle should be checked on a regular basis for smooth and free operation, and signs of damage. IF THE NOZZLE IS OPERATING CORRECTLY, THEN NO ADDITIONAL LUBRICATION IS NEEDED. Any nozzle that is not operating correctly should be immediately removed from service and the problem corrected."

    That section is mostly about the lubrication of the nozzle.


    What was in the manual is that BEFORE EACH USE, you must go through this checklist:

    10.0 INSPECTION CHECKLIST
    Nozzle must be inspected for proper operation and function according to this checklist before each use.
    Check that:
    1) There is no obvious damage such as missing, broken or loose parts, damaged labels etc.
    2) Gasket grabber is free of debris.
    3) Coupling is tight and leak free.
    4) Valve operates freely through full range and regulates fl ow.
    5) “OFF” position does fully shut off and fl ow is stopped.
    6) Nozzle flow is adequate as indicated by pump pressure and nozzle reaction.
    7) Shaper turns freely and adjusts pattern through full range.
    8) Shaper turns into full fl ush and out of fl ush with normal flow and pressure restored.

    We generally do this AFTER use and before it's placed back in service. Nozzles should also be operated 2x month as part of the engineer's regular truck inspection.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by penman View Post
    Excellent point about running an actual flow test. but it's hard to convince people when they see a nice stream running.
    Yes, Thats very true. You can drop the discharge pressure down to about 60 on our nozzles and they will still clamp down and throw a "good" stream.

    It's hard to use nozzle reaction as a guide too, because 200 gpm doesn't really bother some of the guys here others can't hardly hold it and whine about the pressure being too high.

    You know the more we talk about it the more I see why alot of places use smoothbores, Just not as much crap too worry about..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I was reviewing the instructions for the TFT Nozzles. There is no regular maintenance schedule. There is no recommendation for flow testing.

    There was this bit, "The moving parts of the nozzle should be checked on a regular basis for smooth and free operation, and signs of damage. IF THE NOZZLE IS OPERATING CORRECTLY, THEN NO ADDITIONAL LUBRICATION IS NEEDED. Any nozzle that is not operating correctly should be immediately removed from service and the problem corrected."

    That section is mostly about the lubrication of the nozzle.


    What was in the manual is that BEFORE EACH USE, you must go through this checklist:

    10.0 INSPECTION CHECKLIST
    Nozzle must be inspected for proper operation and function according to this checklist before each use.
    Check that:
    1) There is no obvious damage such as missing, broken or loose parts, damaged labels etc.
    2) Gasket grabber is free of debris.
    3) Coupling is tight and leak free.
    4) Valve operates freely through full range and regulates fl ow.
    5) “OFF” position does fully shut off and fl ow is stopped.
    6) Nozzle flow is adequate as indicated by pump pressure and nozzle reaction.
    7) Shaper turns freely and adjusts pattern through full range.
    8) Shaper turns into full fl ush and out of fl ush with normal flow and pressure restored.

    We generally do this AFTER use and before it's placed back in service. Nozzles should also be operated 2x month as part of the engineer's regular truck inspection.
    You are correct on the maintenance schedule. I was given incorrect information by a TFT salesperson. I apologize for recommending you flow test and maintain your equipment more than once every 20 years.

    I still stand firm on the point that if you NEVER, in 20 years, flow tested those nozzles to check for proper operating pressure with an inline pressure gauge, or flow with a flow meter, you truly have not one clue what is happening at the end of that nozzle. The department where that TFT flowed at 70 psi unless you flushed it, didn't know it wasn't operating properly. I wouldn't have without the inline pressure gauge. Would you? The stream looked fine. There was no obvious indication that the pressure was wrong.

    The difference between single gallonage and automatic nozzles is the automatic nozzles all have more working parts internally including springs that can fail or not operate properly. Testing and doing maintenance when required is vital to the automatic functioning properly. You simply get no indication of what is going on in an automatic nozzle by operating the bail and pattern adjustment dry, and little true indication of flow, or pressure, without gauges when flowing water.


    Either way, stay safe and thanks for a lively discourse on this topic.
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