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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleEVT View Post

    Any tank fill is "robbing" water from the pump. That water has to come from somewhere. Have you ever considered how much water flows through a 2" smooth bore at 100 psi, because that's basically what you are "robbing". It's over 1000 gpm. Besides, it's also a good way to crack you booster tank.
    It is a common problem with some of the newer Hales. There was a thread here not too long ago about it with pictures showing the piping setup that causes the issue.

    It is not normal to have no water availabe for anything else just becuase the tank fill is all the way open. And that is what some of our new Hales do. If you open another line with the tank fill all the way open it takes so much water becuase of the piping and the piping size that the APG senses a low supply and shuts everything down.

    And I dont recall saying anything about RPM. I am just saying the noise that the trucks make pumping the same amount are night and day.

    Once again, personal preference. I still prefer Waterous.
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    I have worked on both and prefer the Waterous over Hale. For whatever reason, the trucks with Waterous pumps seem to sit at barley above an idle while the Hale trucks are screaming through the roof the pump the same amount. And like mentioned above, we are on our 3rd oilless primer on my paid department engine
    What do you mean you didn't say anything about rpm, isn't idle a certain rpm? You may want to check what you did say on the first page.

    Tank fills these days are 2" whereas before they were only 1 1/2". That's quite a bit more water. You're clearly missing the point, the water ( 1250 GPM via the 2" tank fill ) is coming from the pump. If you open that tank fill wide open while you have a NDP of 100+ PSI you might as well have opened the deck gun, same GPM.

    It is not normal to have no water availabe for anything else just becuase the tank fill is all the way open.
    It depends how much water is coming in or available.

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    The size of the tank fill line and its location is done by the body builder, not the pump maker.

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    I got to thinking about this more yesterday, so I went and did some looking.

    Sat both trucks side by side. Ran both to 200 PSI on the master gauge.

    Truck A: 2003 E-One Freightliner. CAT diesel, Allison trans. Waterous 1250 GPM.

    Truck B: 2007 E-One Freightliner. Mercedes diesel, Allison trans. Hale 1250 GPM.

    At 200 PSI truck A was sitting at 1300 RPM. Truck B was a little over 2000.

    Now, this onviously has nothing to do with the pump brand in each truck. I am assuming it is a gearing issue? Some one who knows more about this care to shed some light?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I got to thinking about this more yesterday, so I went and did some looking.

    Sat both trucks side by side. Ran both to 200 PSI on the master gauge.

    Truck A: 2003 E-One Freightliner. CAT diesel, Allison trans. Waterous 1250 GPM.

    Truck B: 2007 E-One Freightliner. Mercedes diesel, Allison trans. Hale 1250 GPM.

    At 200 PSI truck A was sitting at 1300 RPM. Truck B was a little over 2000.

    Now, this onviously has nothing to do with the pump brand in each truck. I am assuming it is a gearing issue? Some one who knows more about this care to shed some light?
    Tell us the pump models (not ratings) and the gear ratios.
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    It also depends if one or both have two stage pumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I got to thinking about this more yesterday, so I went and did some looking.

    Sat both trucks side by side. Ran both to 200 PSI on the master gauge.

    Truck A: 2003 E-One Freightliner. CAT diesel, Allison trans. Waterous 1250 GPM.

    Truck B: 2007 E-One Freightliner. Mercedes diesel, Allison trans. Hale 1250 GPM.

    At 200 PSI truck A was sitting at 1300 RPM. Truck B was a little over 2000.

    Now, this onviously has nothing to do with the pump brand in each truck. I am assuming it is a gearing issue? Some one who knows more about this care to shed some light?
    ASSuming the pumps are SINGLE stage,the Hale is geared WRONG. NONE of my Hales turn over 1200 to make 200psi. T.C.

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    Question Rating Plate

    You should have a pump rating plate on the pump panel of each truck. What is the rpm listed on each plate for 1250 gpm at 150 psi. The governed speed of the engine also makes a difference in the ratio used. A 2,100 rpm governed engine will have a lower gear ratio than a 2,600 rpm. governed engine. Don't know what speed the Mercedes is governed at. Is the gear ratio listed on the pump rating plate?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    It also depends if one or both have two stage pumps.

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    I will get the ratings from the plates, but I can tell you that Truck A is a two stage and Truck B is a single stage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I will get the ratings from the plates, but I can tell you that Truck A is a two stage and Truck B is a single stage.
    Try putting thruck A in pressure and getting 1250.I'm betting your Rpms will be higher then. AND it won't work well. This is like comparing apples and grapes. T.C.

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    Rescue 101 beat me to it.
    Last edited by jlcooke3; 05-26-2010 at 01:56 PM. Reason: not fast enough

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    Don't you mean parallel volume mode on the two stage and compare to the single stage. Which is what the rating plate at 1250 gpm at 150 psi will compare apples to apples. If the two stage is in series pressure mode pumping a low volume of water at a higher pressure, it will always operate at a lower rpm than the single stage pump and you are comparing apples to oranges.

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    NOT at 200psi which was the comparison point. Outside of that,you would be correct. YES,the two stage SHOULD be in volume at anything over 600gpm. Only criteria given was 200 PSI,volume unknown. T.C.

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    I think I see what you are saying. Tell me if I have it right now.

    When pumping high pressure, low volume, the two stage pump in pressure mode will require less RPM than the single stage pumping the same pressure.

    Likewise, when pumping high volume, low pressure, the two stage pump in pressure mode will require more RPM to reach the same volume.

    That being said, wouldnt a fair comparison be to put the two stage pump in volume and pump both trucks to a desired PSI or volume? I simply pumped to 200 while recirculating water, so I know the GPMs were different becuase of the goofed up tank fill piping on the Hale (too big).

    Seems like pumping both truck's deck guns with the same tip at the same pressure with the two stage being in volume would be a fair comparison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245
    .... but I can tell you that Truck A is a two stage and Truck B is a single stage.
    Excellent, I nailed it. LOL


    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245
    I think I see what you are saying (to Rescue101 post). Tell me if I have it right now.

    When pumping high pressure, low volume, the two stage pump in pressure mode will require less RPM than the single stage pumping the same pressure.

    Likewise, when pumping high volume, low pressure, the two stage pump in pressure mode will require more RPM to reach the same volume.

    That being said, wouldnt a fair comparison be to put the two stage pump in volume and pump both trucks to a desired PSI or volume? I simply pumped to 200 while recirculating water, so I know the GPMs were different becuase of the goofed up tank fill piping on the Hale (too big).

    Seems like pumping both truck's deck guns with the same tip at the same pressure with the two stage being in volume would be a fair comparison.
    You're close, but not quite there.

    There are other intangibles that go with them. Gearing ratios apply at this point between the two (single stage vs two stage). As well the HP/TRQ ratings of said engine on both will also make a difference.

    It would be a hard test to run both a psi and gpm test vs rpm on either one, to see which is better suited for what you want it to do, or even test. Even if you put the two stage pump in volume, and run the single stage as is, you will never get the same results or what you think should happen.

    At this point, you are doing exactly what is called, comparing apples to oranges.

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    Two stage in Volume,single stage in,well,single stage. KNOWN output like a deck gun at 500GPM tip,two lengths of 2.5,at a fixed PSI like say 150. THEN you can do a FAIRLY representative comparison. Like FM says,the two pumps,by DESIGN,will be geared different. T.C.

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    All you have to do is read the rating plates on the pump panels.
    They show the information for the NFPA Rating Tests.
    1250 gpm at 150 psi test at XXX rpm.
    875 gpm. at 200 psi test at xxx rpm
    625 gpm at 250 psi test at xxx rpm.

    It will show you the differences in rpm. I would expect the two stage to have lower rpm in the 200 and 250 psi tests. And unless there is a BIG difference in gear ratios, I would expect the two to be similar rpms in the 150 psi test with maybe the two stage being slightly higher.

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    There's more to it than just reading the rating plate.

    For many years, manufacturer's only offered 4 models of manifolded pumps.
    • A small single stage
    • A BIG single stage
    • A small two stage
    • A BIG two stage
    A dept can purchase a BIG pump, but give it a small rating. How can we know this isn't the case with one of these trucks?

    Also, most two stage pumps will pass the 70%/200 psi pumping test in either pump mode, albeit one mode will require high rpms than the other. Heck, most will pass the 50%/250psi test in volume mode, but the engine will really be screaming.

    Another thing to consider is if GTRider245 had any water flowing at all during the comparison. If he cracked the tankfill, or opened them completely, there's no telling how much water the pump was flowing. A 1" tank fill will flow several hundred GPM at 200 psi. If he had them both wide open, but one has 1", and other has 1", then it tilts the scales even further to "apples and oranges" side.
    Last edited by txgp17; 05-28-2010 at 10:36 AM.
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    All great points. Thanks for the clarification.
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    Default Hale Auto-lube's are junk

    We switched to Hale on our 92 CF Mack Servo-Command Foam pumper. We also didn't like the Waterous relief valve's prior to that. Our Hale pump's have a very high repair rate on the Auto-lube system. The seals leak water into the oiler system. It's pretty much an annual repair and cost us over $1200 per pump times two. I'd like to see us go back to Waterous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captain7
    We switched to Hale on our 92 CF Mack Servo-Command Foam pumper. We also didn't like the Waterous relief valve's prior to that. Our Hale pump's have a very high repair rate on the Auto-lube system. The seals leak water into the oiler system. It's pretty much an annual repair and cost us over $1200 per pump times two. I'd like to see us go back to Waterous.
    If you're having a problem with the waterous pressure relief valves, then it is an issue with a lack maintenance of it. As for the Hales Auto-Lube, it is a joke, and one of many reasons why we won't spec them anymore. Once burnt, twice shy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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