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  1. #21
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    What are you talking about? 50 bar of pressure? liters per min? 45mm?
    Do What? Somebody translate please.
    If I remember right a Bar of Pressure is 14.7psi so 50 Bar would be around 735 psi.

    45mm....25.4mm equals an inch so 45mm is roughly 1 3/4 inches

    125ltrs/min.....33.9 ounces in a liter so 125ltrs/min is roughly 33 gpm's

    I have been told since I was 9 years old metrics were coming so I actually paid attention in math class. By the way 9 years old is 42 years ago and I am still waiting!!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I have been told since I was 9 years old metrics were coming so I actually paid attention in math class. By the way 9 years old is 42 years ago and I am still waiting!!
    Thanks for the translation, Brother. Although you got me by 16 years, I feel your pain.
    Stay Safe
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  3. #23
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Thanks for the translation, Brother. Although you got me by 16 years, I feel your pain.
    Funny thing is i know all those metric conversion things and they are essentially worthless information in my head. We will NEVER go all metric. Our standard system is too deeply ingrained.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB1OEV View Post
    Are you sure that they were talking about the traditional 3/4" or 1" rubber hose booster line and not a 1.5" soft line stored on a booster reel? I have seen these more and more on new apparatus instead of cross lays.

    If they are talking about a small line, they can't escape the reduction in volume through a pump as the outlet pressure is increased.

    No, it was a 1 inch rubber booster line, the truck was at our station.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    The key part is here, you can get 110 gpm. Sure, that is a fire flow, but would you want to take a line in that maxes out at about 110? No, I'll select an 1.75" that can go up to 250+ gpm.



    Like comparing nipples on a man and a woman; sure they are similar, but no where near the same thing. 100 psi with water is different than 100 psi with CAFS.



    Run from this sales man, insure your daughter is at home and the door is locked.

    That is kinda my thoughts, run!! I asked him some questions about the advantages of this and he could only give me one, hmmmmmmmm only one I thought. I told him I would never enter a structure with a one inch line.

  6. #26
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
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    110 gpm through a 1 inch line... thats insane, you would be working the hell out of the pump.

    What do yall think the discharge would be, 350 psi???
    Bring enough hose.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    What are you talking about? 50 bar of pressure? liters per min? 45mm?
    Do What? Somebody translate please.
    Ha HA! 1 bar = around 3.3 psi i think.45mm is I think inch and 3/4 roughly.For you guys its a science, for us its more of put the "wet stuff on the hot stuff", if u need more water on the fire put another line in there.cant really compare like someone said, building construction has alot to do with it
    Last edited by jeeves1; 05-24-2010 at 09:38 AM. Reason: i meant to put 13.3psi but hey, who cares.it works for us i n the UK!

  8. #28
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If I remember right a Bar of Pressure is 14.7psi so 50 Bar would be around 735 psi.

    45mm....25.4mm equals an inch so 45mm is roughly 1 3/4 inches

    125ltrs/min.....33.9 ounces in a liter so 125ltrs/min is roughly 33 gpm's

    I have been told since I was 9 years old metrics were coming so I actually paid attention in math class. By the way 9 years old is 42 years ago and I am still waiting!!
    Yeah 1 Bar = ~14.7 psi (thank you google)

    So you are fighting fire with 750 psi? I always was told that Euro-firefighters use high pressure, but to an American that sounds insane. And 33 gpm? How does that work.

    In the US we calculate fire flow to combat BTU's. If I remember right it is one gallon of water absorbs a couple hundred BTU's. That's why we flow 200+ gallons when interior. I am very curious how European tactics work flowing less gpm at a higher pressure? Please, you have my full attention.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Yeah 1 Bar = ~14.7 psi (thank you google)

    So you are fighting fire with 750 psi? I always was told that Euro-firefighters use high pressure, but to an American that sounds insane. And 33 gpm? How does that work.

    In the US we calculate fire flow to combat BTU's. If I remember right it is one gallon of water absorbs a couple hundred BTU's. That's why we flow 200+ gallons when interior. I am very curious how European tactics work flowing less gpm at a higher pressure? Please, you have my full attention.
    It works, trust me.I its beyond room and contents then 2 hosereels go in.Maybe,just MAYBE a 45mm to back up.But usualy 95% of domestic property fires require only 2 hosereels to get the job done.Notice i said, "room".Thats the clue there.. your domestic properties as far as I have seen here I mainly plaster boad divided homes.We use brick and mortar.Fires are still as hot, imagine a big brick oven!So anyway, back to the job in hand, it works thats all you need to know.We dont get scientfic about it too much.Keep it simple, its not a difficult job, some just choose to make it more than it is.

  10. #30
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeves1 View Post
    Ha HA! 1 bar = around 3.3 psi i think.45mm is I think inch and 3/4 roughly.For you guys its a science, for us its more of put the "wet stuff on the hot stuff", if u need more water on the fire put another line in there.cant really compare like someone said, building construction has alot to do with it
    3.3 or 13.3 are both wrong...14.7 was close but the exact number is 14.5038.

    Wow...way to denegrate your fire service by turning yourselves into non-thinking water sprayers.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  11. #31
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    Jeeves1: What you are describing is almost exactly what we were doing in the 1950's. We got a heavy rescue in 1959 with a 5 stage centrifugal pump. You throttled up until the "Ross Relief" valve opened at 800 psi (54 bar) then went interior with a 1" booster line with an Elkhart 30 gpm nozzle. If you do the math you will find that a 100 psi nozzle at 30 gpm has an equivalent opening of 0.316" and by pushing this nozzle at 532 psi (36 bar) it will deliver about 70 gpm. Now 70 gpm through 200 ft. of 1" booster has a friction loss of about 270 psi. Thus the engine pressure of 800 psi. We used this rescue as first due on all structure fires until the mid 1970's when we got an engine with a 750 gal tank and 1 1/2" Mattydale lays. I must agree with your statement that this type of delivery works for room and contents, and it works very well. I also need to agree with most of the US posters when they would like to have another hunderd gpm available when going after a little more involved structures over here in light weight construction.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    3.3 or 13.3 are both wrong...14.7 was close but the exact number is 14.5038.

    Wow...way to denegrate your fire service by turning yourselves into non-thinking water sprayers.
    like i said.You are making this job way more complicated than it is.I think you will find that most modern day branch techniques, fire behaviour training has stemmed frrom Europe, in particular Sweden and the UK.In fact, we had many fire department senior officers from the U.S come to our department for fire behaviour training.Like is said also, I dont get fixated too much with numbers and figures.I am going on actual working fire experience in domestic properties.2x hosereels work and put out the fire very quickly and effeciently.I am not saying there are not calculations to be made, but htese are mostly made by senior officers at large scale incidents wen working out flow rates for water supplies etc.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    3.3 or 13.3 are both wrong...14.7 was close but the exact number is 14.5038.

    Wow...way to denegrate your fire service by turning yourselves into non-thinking water sprayers.
    also i note you are rural.I am from an inner city department.Again, different building construction.

  14. #34
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeves1 View Post
    also i note you are rural.I am from an inner city department.Again, different building construction.
    Actually, where I live and volunteer is quite rural, population 717. Where I work as a career firefighter is a different story though. It is a bizarre mixture of urban housing, manufacturing, industry, commercial, downtown style store fronts, a huge mall, multi-story residences, medical complexes, elderly housing in all the varieties you can imagine, CBRF's, apartment buildings, condos, warehouses, and quiet little residential neighborhoods, all biscetted by a major highway.

    The constant in my mind? Always try to bring more than you think you will need for water to fight the fire. The worst that happens when I use my 200 gpm stream is I shut off the nozzle a whole heck of a lot faster then you do with your twin 30 gpm streams. That is the key, highly skilled and trained firefighters on the nozzle knowing when to flow, and when to shut off, the nozzle.

    Different places, different techniques, as long as we win and all go home it is all good.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    the city i worked in was the 2nd most populated and had the highest diverse risks in the world.Like i said, our techniques are proven, and they work, period.Where do you think all the U.S fire simulator trainers in the world are made? Europe.End of Story.

  16. #36
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeves1 View Post
    the city i worked in was the 2nd most populated and had the highest diverse risks in the world.Like i said, our techniques are proven, and they work, period.Where do you think all the U.S fire simulator trainers in the world are made? Europe.End of Story.
    Do you mean flashover simulators? That I might almost be convinced to believe. Well, except for the fact that the city FD that shares the training grounds owned by the tech college I teach for BUILT THEIR OWN. Thank you very much. I know for a fact that a live fire training building manufacturer is within 30 miles of my home. Not quite sure what you were trying to prove with this anyways.

    Wow, you seem like a guy with little man complex. You threw out the rural comment at me and I clarified my situation. You had to come back with you work for the 2nd most populated city, with the highest diverse risks in the world...WOW!!! Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?

    If your tactics work for you FINE, is that clear enough? I really don't care how you fight fire there. I work in an environment of lightweight construction with trusses, and TGI's, and the extra GPM offered by a 1 3/4" line (my career FD) or a 2 inch line (my volly FD) can often be the difference between life and death. Our tactics are proven and they work for us.

    I guess in your desperate need to prove you are better you missed this line on my last post:

    Different places, different techniques, as long as we win and all go home it is all good.
    You really need to calm down a bit...It seems like many of you guys from across the pond are a little bit over sensitive
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    i dont need to prove anything to you.The facts speak for it all.Just ask your college where they got the idea of fire behaviour training simulators from... the first one was built in Europe at Moreton in Marsh, Glocestshire.UK Their college has instructors come to learn from us from all over the world.You have a big chip on your shoulder,typical.If you open your eyes you will see that there is always more than one way to skin a cat

  18. #38
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Jeeves, calm down. I don't care who developed what technology. We just have diffrent ways of doing it, I am just trying to get an insite into how your methods work. For the most part, American fire service does a direct attack, using smoothbore tip or straight stream out of an adjustable tip, putting the water stream directly on the seat of the fire.

    Just guessing, with the lower volume, you use an indirect attack method, banking the stream off the ceiling or such, generating steam. Unless the high pressure allows you to penetrate the seat of the fire with the lower volume. So please educate me, with the higher pressure, lower volume, how you make fire attack?

    Thanks.

  19. #39
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeves1 View Post
    i dont need to prove anything to you.The facts speak for it all.Just ask your college where they got the idea of fire behaviour training simulators from... the first one was built in Europe at Moreton in Marsh, Glocestshire.UK Their college has instructors come to learn from us from all over the world.You have a big chip on your shoulder,typical.If you open your eyes you will see that there is always more than one way to skin a cat

    It really is this simple:

    Different places, different techniques, as long as we win and all go home it is all good.
    Do I use pulsing into the overhead on occasion? Yes, I do. More often though I will go for the base of the fire with a straight stream or smoothbore. Is your way of using high pressure wrong? Not if it works. Is my way of higher flows and bigger handlines wrong? Not if it works.

    Now calm down, head down to the Pub, and quaff a few pints.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #40
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeves1 View Post
    the city i worked in was the 2nd most populated and had the highest diverse risks in the world.Like i said, our techniques are proven, and they work, period.Where do you think all the U.S fire simulator trainers in the world are made? Europe.End of Story.
    You are from Sweden?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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