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  1. #1
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    Default Booster line for interior attack?

    Guys here it is. We just had a sales person from a local builder that is using a Rosenbauer two stage pump. Their claim is that with the high pressure side and using the booster line you can get over 110 gpm through it and use it for interior fire attack. To me that does not seem like enough water flow even though they can put foam through the line. They also claim do to the higher pressure with the foam that it is close to being the same as a CAFS system. What does everyone think. just a sales pitch??

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    What size booster line i know some dept's are getting 1.5 or 1.75 boosters now. I have seen a booster used inside a fire after the 1.75 line broke and the second was being stretched still and I was amazed on how much fire a booster put out three room's before the second line was charged. Not that this is a common practice any more but it was the first time i have ever seen it and it worked.

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    I don't think anyone but Rosenbauer uses thier pumps. I don't think they are available to local builders. And they are single stage volume pumps with a multiple stage high pressure side. 110 GPM is 110 GPM regardless of what it comes out it. If 110 is enough to put out the fire then it works. Their theory is mixing the foam at high pressure and using a foam aeration tube creates finished foam that is similiar to CAFS. But not quite the same, there is no air injected in the line, so no compressor. And the real good foam is only available on the high pressure side which limits the capacity. I've seen the finished foam, it's not bad and for the cost saving over a CAF system it may suit many fire departments. As far as using a booster line as an interior attack line, well, that may be a bit risky.

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    Yep, just a sales pitch. Like someone said if it is a 110 gpm fire the line will work fine. If not the fire will burn until it is a 110 gpm fire.

    I don't see any circumstances where I would EVER choose a booster line over an 1 1/2, 1 3/4 or 2 inch line for interior attack.
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    using the booster line you can get over 110 gpm through it and use it for interior fire attack.

    Say What?

    Not on my watch will anyone on our department deploy a booster line in a structure.

    We can use any of the following:

    1.5" x 2 Preconnect
    1.75" x 2 Preconnect
    2.5" x 3 - 1 - Front and 2 -rear - we can go to 3" as well.

    All foam/cafs capable.

    If any of those are too much... I do not know what to say...

    If those aren't enough, then the booster line was a really bad idea.


    Basic fact: If you do not have enough water/foam (you pick) to overcome the BTUs, then you will not put out the fire on your schedule. But Fyred is correct... eventually the fire will be within your capability.

    I have also found that even if you never put water on fire, it will eventually go out on its own. May not be a good way to approach it, but if you don't have enough resource, you're losing anyway.

    This seems like a safety thing to me... I want my guys to always have more than enough.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    110 will put out a 1 or 2 room fire yes, but I really doubt you could get that through a 1 inch line but lets say you could. The problem is thats ALL you could get, Why not use 1.75 at say 150gpm with a nozzle that could go to 200 or 250 or higher if needs be?


    What discharge pressure did they say that it took to get that gpm?

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    Are you sure that they were talking about the traditional 3/4" or 1" rubber hose booster line and not a 1.5" soft line stored on a booster reel? I have seen these more and more on new apparatus instead of cross lays.

    If they are talking about a small line, they can't escape the reduction in volume through a pump as the outlet pressure is increased.
    Last edited by KB1OEV; 05-21-2010 at 12:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itshotinhere View Post
    110 will put out a 1 or 2 room fire yes, but I really doubt you could get that through a 1 inch line but lets say you could. The problem is thats ALL you could get, Why not use 1.75 at say 150gpm with a nozzle that could go to 200 or 250 or higher if needs be?


    What discharge pressure did they say that it took to get that gpm?

    Exactly what I'm thinking. You are also operating that 1" line at its maximum pressures, which I think would make a failure more likely. 1 3/4 line doesn't need to be pumped at or near its max operating pressure to flow 150gpm or more unless its an exceptionally long line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB1OEV View Post
    Are you sure that they were talking about the traditional 3/4" or 1" rubber hose booster line and not a 1.5" soft line stored on a booster reel? I have seen these more and more on new apparatus instead of cross lays.

    If they are talking about a small line, they can't escape the reduction in volume through a pump as the outlet pressure is increased.
    Not sure of the line size.. I have always known a "booster" to be 3\4 or 1". I like the idea of a reel of 1.5 or 1.75 though.

    Don't get me wrong I think a booster line has its place, they work great for mop up,brush fires,... I'm kinda on the fence about using them for car fires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSMV72 View Post
    ...using the booster line you can get over 110 gpm through it...
    The key part is here, you can get 110 gpm. Sure, that is a fire flow, but would you want to take a line in that maxes out at about 110? No, I'll select an 1.75" that can go up to 250+ gpm.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSMV72 View Post
    They also claim do to the higher pressure with the foam that it is close to being the same as a CAFS system.
    Like comparing nipples on a man and a woman; sure they are similar, but no where near the same thing. 100 psi with water is different than 100 psi with CAFS.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSMV72 View Post
    What does everyone think. just a sales pitch??
    Run from this sales man, insure your daughter is at home and the door is locked.

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    It's kind of been touched on, but do you want to get into the fire with 110 gpm and no additional flow available, or do you want to be flowing 150 with an additional 50 or more gpm available if the stuff hits the fan.

    Yes, 110 gpm will put out a lot of fires, but why limit yourself.

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    Ummmm.... no, I wouldn't use a "standard" 3/4" or 1" booster for a car fire, much less interior attack. I "might" use the high pressure/foam booster for a car fire, but still a big NO on interior attack.

    That said, with Niedner (and others) making 1-1/2" line for reels, our next engine will most likely have that on it for structural protection on WUI, car fires, and a charged line on MVAs.

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    Welcome to 1975!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post

    Like comparing nipples on a man and a woman; sure they are similar, but no where near the same thing. 100 psi with water is different than 100 psi with CAFS.
    Now that's Funny!
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    Default Probably B.S., but....

    Delivering 110 GPM through 200 ft. of 1" booster is possible, but not with a conventional pump or nozzle. First, 200 ft. of 1" at 110 gpm has about 605 psi of friction loss, so with a standard fog nozzle or automatic at 100 psi, we would need an E.P. of 705 PSI. A standard fire pump is only pressure tested to 600 psi. (Misht fork full #1)
    Has anyone ever seen a booster nozzle with a 100+ GPM capacity? (Misht fork full #2)
    For the uninitiated "Misht" is a German term for manure.
    Even if we believe that CAFS has a 5 or 10 to 1 knock down improvement, the delivery of 110 gpm of foam at 150 to 1 air ratio only has 1 gpm water or a 10 gpm effectiveness. (Misht #3 and you are covered with it!)

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    Would like to see our British & European friends chime in on this as they use smaller lines all the time for structural attack.

    Yes, the building construction is different and there is far more structural compartmentalization, but what type of success do they experience?

    Also, aren't' their booster line charged at a much higher pressure similar to the old John Bean 3-stage pumps used 20-30 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Would like to see our British & European friends chime in on this as they use smaller lines all the time for structural attack.

    Yes, the building construction is different and there is far more structural compartmentalization, but what type of success do they experience?

    Also, aren't' their booster line charged at a much higher pressure similar to the old John Bean 3-stage pumps used 20-30 years ago?
    Yes very true, I worked career for the 2nd biggest fire department behind FDNY in Europe.Our high pressure hose reels are used on 90% of all interior attacks.They are differently constructed to your "booster" lines and can withstand upto 50 bar of pressure with 125ltrs per min.We take 2 in on beyond room and contents.( 1 per team).They work great for us.Lugging a 45mm around is just not practical.MAybe on commercial premises.Like i said, its worked graet for us, but different constructions.Inner city traditional and type 2 mostly

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSMV72 View Post
    What does everyone think. just a sales pitch??
    Take the salesman and his demo apparatus over to the local burn tower. Light off three or four rooms full of skids and wait until well involved. Hand the nozzle of the booster line to the salesman, point, and say "after you."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeves1 View Post
    Yes very true, I worked career for the 2nd biggest fire department behind FDNY in Europe.Our high pressure hose reels are used on 90% of all interior attacks.They are differently constructed to your "booster" lines and can withstand upto 50 bar of pressure with 125ltrs per min.We take 2 in on beyond room and contents.( 1 per team).They work great for us.Lugging a 45mm around is just not practical.MAybe on commercial premises.Like i said, its worked graet for us, but different constructions.Inner city traditional and type 2 mostly
    What are you talking about? 50 bar of pressure? liters per min? 45mm?
    Do What? Somebody translate please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Take the salesman and his demo apparatus over to the local burn tower. Light off three or four rooms full of skids and wait until well involved. Hand the nozzle of the booster line to the salesman, point, and say "after you."
    I'd pay good money to watch that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    What are you talking about? 50 bar of pressure? liters per min? 45mm?
    Do What? Somebody translate please.
    If I remember right a Bar of Pressure is 14.7psi so 50 Bar would be around 735 psi.

    45mm....25.4mm equals an inch so 45mm is roughly 1 3/4 inches

    125ltrs/min.....33.9 ounces in a liter so 125ltrs/min is roughly 33 gpm's

    I have been told since I was 9 years old metrics were coming so I actually paid attention in math class. By the way 9 years old is 42 years ago and I am still waiting!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I have been told since I was 9 years old metrics were coming so I actually paid attention in math class. By the way 9 years old is 42 years ago and I am still waiting!!
    Thanks for the translation, Brother. Although you got me by 16 years, I feel your pain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Thanks for the translation, Brother. Although you got me by 16 years, I feel your pain.
    Funny thing is i know all those metric conversion things and they are essentially worthless information in my head. We will NEVER go all metric. Our standard system is too deeply ingrained.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB1OEV View Post
    Are you sure that they were talking about the traditional 3/4" or 1" rubber hose booster line and not a 1.5" soft line stored on a booster reel? I have seen these more and more on new apparatus instead of cross lays.

    If they are talking about a small line, they can't escape the reduction in volume through a pump as the outlet pressure is increased.

    No, it was a 1 inch rubber booster line, the truck was at our station.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    The key part is here, you can get 110 gpm. Sure, that is a fire flow, but would you want to take a line in that maxes out at about 110? No, I'll select an 1.75" that can go up to 250+ gpm.



    Like comparing nipples on a man and a woman; sure they are similar, but no where near the same thing. 100 psi with water is different than 100 psi with CAFS.



    Run from this sales man, insure your daughter is at home and the door is locked.

    That is kinda my thoughts, run!! I asked him some questions about the advantages of this and he could only give me one, hmmmmmmmm only one I thought. I told him I would never enter a structure with a one inch line.

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