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  1. #101
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    Cool Liberal Policies

    If you want to see where the LIbs have our country heading, all you have to do is look at the city of Detroit. It is a crucible of Democratic policies over the last 60 years.
    At the end of WWII, Detroit had one of the highest per capita incomes in the country. After 60 years of Democratic Party and Union rule Detroit is a ghost of its former city. 18% unemployment, half the population has fled looking for work. The mighty auto industry is non competitive and surviving on government hand outs. In 1950 Detroit built 80% of the cars in the entire world. Ridiculous union demands and an easy market led to ridiculous contracts. Bloated and corrupt city government led to squandering of millions of tax dollars. Etc. etc. The Democratic Utopia is on display in Detroit for all to see.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    If you want to see where the LIbs have our country heading, all you have to do is look at the city of Detroit. It is a crucible of Democratic policies over the last 60 years.
    At the end of WWII, Detroit had one of the highest per capita incomes in the country. After 60 years of Democratic Party and Union rule Detroit is a ghost of its former city. 18% unemployment, half the population has fled looking for work. The mighty auto industry is non competitive and surviving on government hand outs. In 1950 Detroit built 80% of the cars in the entire world. Ridiculous union demands and an easy market led to ridiculous contracts. Bloated and corrupt city government led to squandering of millions of tax dollars. Etc. etc. The Democratic Utopia is on display in Detroit for all to see.
    You mean the fact that the primary economic engine continued to produce a product that was no longer demanded by the buying public had nothing to do with it?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No joke here. I'm not sure what this statement means.

    I'll try to restate. I'm not opposed to capitalism and the profit motive. I believe communism and socialism to be failures.

    What I oppose is the belief by uber conservatives and libertarians that government has no place and that all regulations should be abolished.

    I believe that too much government will lead to tyranny. But I also believe that too little government will lead to anarchy.

    The determination of what is the proper amount is a constant battle.
    The original comment from me was not a response to your comments in this thread... they were in response to someone who was calling out capitalism as the culprit here.

    There is no doubt that there needs to be regulation, as you say, its the level of regulation that most sane people debate.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You mean the fact that the primary economic engine continued to produce a product that was no longer demanded by the buying public had nothing to do with it?
    They could not produce a (competitive) product due to bloated union contracts and ridiculous union contract work rules. As welll as a poor focus on quality since they had such a large market share. I was in the UAW (not by choice. It was not a right to work state) and have seen firsthand all the ridiculous B#ll S#it of the unions. Granted, in the early 1930’s unions were needed to improve health and safety of the workers. But they have far out lived their original purpose and usefulness and are now a ball and chain around the necks of companies trying to be competitive on the world stage. I think Government Motors is building a quality product today compared to 25 years ago, but they have a whole generation of buyers perceptions they need to change. Our yuppies still think Honda and Toyota build better cars when in reality GM has closed the gap and actually offer better products. Will the tax payers continue to bail them out until the American car buyers figure that out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    They could not produce a (competitive) product due to bloated union contracts and ridiculous union contract work rules. As welll as a poor focus on quality since they had such a large market share. I was in the UAW (not by choice. It was not a right to work state) and have seen firsthand all the ridiculous B#ll S#it of the unions. Granted, in the early 1930’s unions were needed to improve health and safety of the workers. But they have far out lived their original purpose and usefulness and are now a ball and chain around the necks of companies trying to be competitive on the world stage. I think Government Motors is building a quality product today compared to 25 years ago, but they have a whole generation of buyers perceptions they need to change. Our yuppies still think Honda and Toyota build better cars when in reality GM has closed the gap and actually offer better products. Will the tax payers continue to bail them out until the American car buyers figure that out.
    You must have not noticed. GM repaid their loans last April. With interest.

    All the issues you blame on unions are management and leadership issues. The union didn't force the company to make cars that weren't being demanded.

    Honda and Toyota took advantage of the market niche believing that not everyone wanted a gas guzzling pickup or SUV. American car companies put their priorities somewhere other than affordable autos.

    That being said. I am not happy that the new US business model is that profits are privatized and losses are socialized.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-08-2010 at 09:45 AM.
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  6. #106
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    Cool Smoke and Mirrors

    [QUOTE=scfire86;1181298]You must have not noticed. GM repaid their loans last April. With interest.

    You fell right into that Public Relations trap along with the rest of the American public. The loan pay back is smoke and mirrors. They had money to pay them back because when the Obama administration stepped in and forced the bond holders of GM and Chrysler to forgive their bonds at pennies on the dollar, GM had the money saved from not having to pay its bonds to claim the PR prize of paying back the Government loan early. What about the poor bond holders, (you know 401K's, state pension funds, etc) that got stiffed by Obama. Some state pension funds have threatened to sue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So you're on welfare?
    Nope supporting it. It burns my butt to see half of my most recent raise going to taxes. How is is they government (state and federal) thinks they are somehow entitled to the fruits of my hard work? This while 47% of the people in this country pay NO taxes at all. That isn't even close to fair. And to put it into perspective my salary is between $60k and $100k. I am paying more than my fair share due to a corrupt government and unfair system of taxation.

    I believe that a person who invests in their future by getting an education should be able to reap the fruits of their hard work. Rather interesting is I work in an office of professionals; that is people with Bachelors of Science degrees. This group is for the most part conservative and constantly complaining about the taxes. Then again, we are the ones paying the taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No joke here. I'm not sure what this statement means.

    I'll try to restate. I'm not opposed to capitalism and the profit motive. I believe communism and socialism to be failures.

    What I oppose is the belief by uber conservatives and libertarians that government has no place and that all regulations should be abolished. Or that any regulation and regulatory oversight is bad.

    I believe that too much government will lead to tyranny. But I also believe that too little government will lead to anarchy.

    The determination of what is the proper amount is a constant battle.
    Kudos. You finally said something intelligent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    If you want to see where the LIbs have our country heading, all you have to do is look at the city of Detroit. It is a crucible of Democratic policies over the last 60 years.
    At the end of WWII, Detroit had one of the highest per capita incomes in the country. After 60 years of Democratic Party and Union rule Detroit is a ghost of its former city. 18% unemployment, half the population has fled looking for work. The mighty auto industry is non competitive and surviving on government hand outs. In 1950 Detroit built 80% of the cars in the entire world. Ridiculous union demands and an easy market led to ridiculous contracts. Bloated and corrupt city government led to squandering of millions of tax dollars. Etc. etc. The Democratic Utopia is on display in Detroit for all to see.
    I would add the liberal states like NY, Massachusetts, and California. All have severe budget problems and are in dire straits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You mean the fact that the primary economic engine continued to produce a product that was no longer demanded by the buying public had nothing to do with it?
    No. That would be the fact that the buying public no longer supported the high cost associated with the excessive regulations and high wages. They instead opted for products from other countries that were less regulated and had lower wages. The U.S. government compounded this problem by removing tariffs ad implementing foolish agreements like NAFTA.

    As much as I dislike tariffs, they are an excellent tool to promote equality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You must have not noticed. GM repaid their loans last April. With interest.
    Not so fast sunshine GM Repays $8.1B in Government Loans April 10, 2010

    ...GM still owes $45.3 billion to the U.S. and $8.1 billion to Canada, money it received in exchange for large stakes in the company. The U.S. government now owns 61 percent of the company and Canada owns roughly 12 percent. GM plans to repay both with a public stock offering, perhaps later this year. ..
    All the issues you blame on unions are management and leadership issues. The union didn't force the company to make cars that weren't being demanded.

    Honda and Toyota took advantage of the market niche believing that not everyone wanted a gas guzzling pickup or SUV. American car companies put their priorities somewhere other than affordable autos.

    That being said. I am not happy that the new US business model is that profits are privatized and losses are socialized.
    Right. The leadership and management demanded higher wages and more benefits. The leadership and management walked off the job for months at time.

    There is plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    SC...give it up, my brother. Guys like Sharkie are just too arrogant and, quite frankly, dumb to get it. Even when the icky evidence against their ideas of completely unregulated, wild west capitalism they love so much is lapping up on hundreds of miles of Gulf shores, they still rant on and on. Their pathetic attempts to place the blame for this mess at the President's feet is is even further proof that the right has indeed gone completely and irreversibly insane. And the fact that (by your quoting him) ol' Sharkie seems to be defending Scareblow on the issue only further proves he has absolutely no credibility...on anything.
    Arrogant? Supporting data please. You won't support it, but there is always hope.

    Dumb? Supporting data please. You won't support it, but there is always hope.

    Opinions are opinions and you are entitle to them, but you ought to be man enough to back up your statements instead of hiding behind your "ignore" list.

    I never blames the current President. I only stated that by law he has "authority" so for him to magically say so after 6 weeks, when it was already widely known did not really mean a whole hell of a lot.

    I have also NEVER said that the government should be completely hands off. Scfire86 has eluded that I have as well. It depends upon the case. But the government, in general, really does not give a rats @ss about the individual citizen, or the citizenry as a whole. And politicians rarely act in the best interest of either. Mostly they act in the best interest of themselves and consolidating their power.

    And Noz is not exactly a holder of much credibility considering his personal insults without ever offering support for the few statements he makes that may actually have some substance behind them.

    Neither of you know me - though both spout off prolifically as if you do. Very enlightening into your personalities.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No one is disputing that fact. It's the ability of capitalists to ignore the regulations that end up causing damage to those who have no connection to their industry.
    So it is only capitalists that ignore regulations? Funny.

    Problem is that there are no true punishments to those companies and individuals that do violate regulations and laws. The fines are pathetic. No criminal charges when individual are responsible. Make the punishment fit the crime and make them pay for the financial restitution and costs and you fine them on top of it. But so many of our "regulatory agencies" have no bite or ability to do so. Then human nature takes over. But apparently only in capitalists.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And who then end up doing catastrophic damage to complete innocents in the process.
    Why the need for a repetitive statement?
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Arrogant? Supporting data please. You won't support it, but there is always hope.

    Dumb? Supporting data please. You won't support it, but there is always hope.
    I can give supporting documentation; Das Kapital and The Communist manifesto, both written by Karl Marx.

    I have also NEVER said that the government should be completely hands off. Scfire86 has eluded that I have as well. It depends upon the case. But the government, in general, really does not give a rats @ss about the individual citizen, or the citizenry as a whole. And politicians rarely act in the best interest of either. Mostly they act in the best interest of themselves and consolidating their power.
    And therein lies a big part of the problem. The federal government and many state governments (NYS for one) are just as corrupt if not more corrupt. These entities look out for their own interest and not the common good. At least business has a common goal, that is survival of the business. And when the business survives. the employees survive, and society as a whole survives.

    As proof I offer the Previous Wall Street crash of 2008 (the jury is still out on the crash of 2010). The government regulators turned their backs while the industry and economy tanked. Same thing with the West Virginia mine disaster and now the oil spill. And now the Natural Gas explosion in Texas. Can't wait to see what happened there.

    I put a higher level of trust in my employer than I do the Federal Government. My employer is looking out for my best interest (along with the rest of the employees),. they have found that happy employees are productive employees, which makes the company profitable.
    Last edited by ScareCrow57; 06-08-2010 at 11:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    So it is only capitalists that ignore regulations? Funny.
    Yes because there were no regulations at Chernobyl or in Bhopal. In fact there were no regulation in China where 1,000s of miners have died. So in fact, SC is correct, the socialist countries have no regulations therefor no regulations were violated.

    Problem is that there are no true punishments to those companies and individuals that do violate regulations and laws. The fines are pathetic. No criminal charges when individual are responsible. Make the punishment fit the crime and make them pay for the financial restitution and costs and you fine them on top of it. But so many of our "regulatory agencies" have no bite or ability to do so. Then human nature takes over. But apparently only in capitalists.



    Why the need for a repetitive statement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You must have not noticed. GM repaid their loans last April. With interest.
    You ought to look into this a bit more sir. This is an incorrect statement. Those loans were "paid off" "with interest" by taking out additional money from another government program. GM actually still owes the money, just that the money owed is to another government account.

    It was a grossly disingenuous and flagrant lie on the part of GM. The ads were pulled as soon as the moronic half-wits running GM got caught in their little shell game. Given your prolific reading of the news, I am honestly (and not saying this sarcastically) surprised that you were not more aware of this lie.

    http://www.theoaklandpress.com/artic...e715497575.txt

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    All the issues you blame on unions are management and leadership issues. The union didn't force the company to make cars that weren't being demanded.
    Nope. GM designed crap products. Built with crap components. The union (UAW) simply put them together. Problem is, every round of negotitations the UAW demanded more money. Somewhere over the past 50-60 years GM, Ford, and Chrysler began to lose money on every car they built due to one thing - labor costs. The UAW made ridiculous demands (in the long term) and GM lost over $1,600 per car made. (http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/26/news...tune/index.htm)

    Management at these companies is 100% to blame for giving in to the UAW. Their problems came to a head in 2007 with the current financial condition of the world, combined with the Big Three's reliance on trucks and not following a growing market.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Honda and Toyota took advantage of the market niche believing that not everyone wanted a gas guzzling pickup or SUV. American car companies put their priorities somewhere other than affordable autos.
    They didn't take advantage of anything. They did their research and gave people what they wanted. They have never looked back. The Japanese have done this since WWII ended. Now, the Koreans are doing just what the Japanese did.

    Hell, Subaru has been making tough, reliable, long-lasting cars in the US for a few decades now. GM, Ford, and Chrysler started shipping their big manufacturing plants to Mexico and Canada. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Subaru (Fuji Heavy Industries) built plants in the United States. Now Kia, BMW, and Mercedes have plants in the United States. They followed their business model and built what people wanted. The Big Three followed their bloated corporate vision of themselves to where they are now.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    That being said. I am not happy that the new US business model is that profits are privatized and losses are socialized.
    Yet you have no problem with the government dumping billions of dollars of our money into failed businesses with failed business models? Your statement is a bit off.

    Until about 2004 I was a big GM only guy. At that point 2 of my cars (an Oldsmobile - with 108,000 and a GMC with 68,000) both died within about 5 months of each other. Crap cars (and I loved that truck.) About 2 years later my Chevy Imapla dam near fried with 64,000 miles on it. And that car was a freaking rocket. Loved it more than my truck.

    Bought a Subaru in 2004 and my only complaint is the size - just don't like small cars. Freaking thing is still running like a champ with the only repair being a new sway bar and bushings last month. In 2007 I bought my Toyota 4Runner. Best car of the 10 or so I have owned.

    I plan on buying a new truck in the next year, I may consider a Ford F-150, but I guarantee it won't be a GM or Chrysler. I'd love to have a 2011 Ford Mustang GT, but it is just not practical for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Right. The leadership and management demanded higher wages and more benefits. The leadership and management walked off the job for months at time.
    Management is weak in the face of unions. Especially in union friendly states and locales. The Big Three and UAW have no one to blame but themselves - but will blame each other and the "American people" for not buying their bloated, garbage products.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    There is plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved.
    Not in his mind. In his mind, a union can do no wrong, and never has done wrong. And rarely does a Democrat or liberal do wrong. Everything that has gone wrong in the world he can blame on Republicans and conservatives.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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    [QUOTE=DaSharkie;1181363]Management is weak in the face of unions. Especially in union friendly states and locales.
    To tell you how bad it was, when the UAW went on strike in Detroit, in addition to the union strike fund, (to which I had to pay $35 month), they could apply for and receive unemployment compensation. Now tell me, who's going to win that strike. Management or the union? And you wonder why Detroit is down the tubes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Arrogant? Supporting data please. You won't support it, but there is always hope.

    Dumb? Supporting data please. You won't support it, but there is always hope.
    I have been quiet about political issues on here, mainly because I realize that it has become nothing but childish insults and name calling. But I have to say that Sharkie is one of the very few people that I like to debate with.

    I think over the last few years we have agreed on very little, but every time I debated him he answered with answers, not insults.

    Sharkie has his own ideology, but he has always been able to give actual sources and reasons for his beliefs and demonstrated that he feels this way because of "X, Y, Z" and not because "FoxNews said so". And if you give him sources to back up your argument he will readily acknowledge those sources and your effort.

    Debating with Sharkie, and there is a reason I'm not saying "Arguing with Sharkie", has been lots of fun for me in the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    I have been quiet about political issues on here, mainly because I realize that it has become nothing but childish insults and name calling. But I have to say that Sharkie is one of the very few people that I like to debate with.

    I think over the last few years we have agreed on very little, but every time I debated him he answered with answers, not insults.

    Sharkie has his own ideology, but he has always been able to give actual sources and reasons for his beliefs and demonstrated that he feels this way because of "X, Y, Z" and not because "FoxNews said so". And if you give him sources to back up your argument he will readily acknowledge those sources and your effort.

    Debating with Sharkie, and there is a reason I'm not saying "Arguing with Sharkie", has been lots of fun for me in the past.
    Awwwwwwwwww. You make me blush.

    By the way, I was just wonderin' how the battle with debt is going? As I recall you ought to be getting close to screamin' on the radio?
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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    You guys are making me sick.


    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Awwwwwwwwww. You make me blush.
    With enemies like us, who needs friends

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    By the way, I was just wonderin' how the battle with debt is going? As I recall you ought to be getting close to screamin' on the radio?
    About $4,000 left on Credit Cards, then the student loans.

    We did do a non-Dave approved house purchase (I know I know). But our landlord was working on defaulting on our rental and we had a limited time frame before we would have been on a forced move. We did turn down many shady financing schemes and saved up for a good old fashioned down payment and got a traditional fixed at 4.75%. So while I am sure that Dave would smack me, I am happy with the purchase. Our house payment is just below 20% of our monthly take home pay (a $250 increase in monthly payment from renting).

    Not being true to the baby steps, but we are making good progress and are enjoying the journey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Right. The leadership and management demanded higher wages and more benefits. The leadership and management walked off the job for months at time.

    There is plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved.
    And management had no problem increasing both their own wages and benefits even when the company was tanking. One of the few points you've ever made correctly. Though I doubt that was your intent.


    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Kudos. You finally said something intelligent.
    How would you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I would add the liberal states like NY, Massachusetts, and California. All have severe budget problems and are in dire straits.
    As do most if not all the conservative ones numbnuts.
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    Text deleted by poster.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-08-2010 at 08:13 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    So it is only capitalists that ignore regulations? Funny.
    Try not to dissolve to the same level as idiotboy. I never said that was the case.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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