1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    But it certainly has been an educational thread. Thanks you all, T.C.
    I have to agree.... flashbacks to 9th grade physics.

    Good stuff.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Am I safe in saying....If the load indicator on the platform is still in the green for load limit and there is no side loading we should be good? So we don't have to rack our brains on the MA and F, etc, etc. I'll agree though I totally draw things out many times.

  3. #53
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    Default ladder analysis

    Attached is the Newton's 2nd Law analysis of three MA systems for the idealized case of
    * no acceleration of the load (load is already moving at constant speed)
    * direct downward pull
    * pulley's with 100% efficiency

    Note that the force on the tip of the ladder is a maximum of twice the weight of the load for a COD, and asymptotically approaches a minimum of the weight of the load as the MA is gradually increased.

    If the pull is directed along the length of the ladder instead of directly downwards, the force on the tip of the ladder will have a component along the length of the ladder. This will decrease the moment exerted about the base of the ladder (a good thing).

    Also note that the forces can momentarily exceed many times the weight of the load during while it is accelerating, e.g. being moved up to a constant speed from rest. This is one of the reasons we require a minimum 10:1 SSSF in rope rescue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmatthe2 View Post
    Rescue 101 -

    ... Maybe Eric Ulner will chime in on the effects of resultant forces on the ladder. I know works with Reed and would imagine they use these calculations frequently with the AV
    Finally acknowledging your nod, jmatthe2...

    Posts by N2DFire and servantleader have it pretty much covered. Happy 4th.

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    Sorry to drag up an old thread but there is some great info in here. Pat Rhodes did a great video on this very subject you can find it here http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/...e-rigging.html

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    I had a few questions regarding using a tower ladder as a high point.

    About a year ago, my volunteer establishment had a trench rescue about 25' below grade. I was not there unfortunately but I was there for the critique.

    Basically the tower ladder was backed up into position, but no one there knew how to properly set it up for a successful rescue so half the guys were trying to figure it out, and the other half just went down there with a backboard and carried the guy up from a set of stairs that went down into the hole. (it was an underground gym with a truss roof that the lawn was being built on top of and it collapsed)

    I've gone over it in my head a few times but still can't figure out how to do a couple things.

    The attachment is what I thought would need to be set up.

    The stokes was tied off to a main line, which goes up to the pulley attached under the basket, and then back to a pulley clipped into the tow hooks on the rear of the ladder with tandem prusiks as a one way braking mechanism.

    The 4:1 is clamped onto the main line, as a means of hoisting it back while someone manages the prusiks with each pull to remove the slack.

    So, assuming all this even works, once the stokes is above grade, how do we get it back onto land from hanging below the basket in the middle of nowhere? I was told you never use the tower controls as a means of moving anyone. Once you start this operation you shut the ladder down. Would it be ok to retract the boom at that point or even swing it to the side as long as EVERYTHING is clear to do so?

    Would you need another rope to the stokes tied off before hand, that you can simply use to reel the stokes in while letting slack out on the main line?
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    [QUOTE I looked into the laws regarding using them as a crane and have found no OSHA rule, CFR, state law, state administrative rule, manufacturer rule, or nfpa recommendation that would forbid this.
    thanks again,
    mike[/QUOTE]

    Hi Mike,

    Here is what OSHA has to say on the subject:

    OSHA refers to the moving of personnel by crane in two standards: 29 CFR 1910.180 (a general industry standard) and 29 CFR 1926.550 (a construction standard). 1910.180 Crawler locomotive and truck cranes: Starting with: 1910.180 (h)(3)(v)

    (v) No hoisting, lowering, swinging, or traveling shall be done while anyone is on the load or hook.

    1926.550 is a construction standard. It says people can be moved by crane as long as the following conditions are met: The crane must be set up level within 1% of grade; The personnel must ride in a load rated man basket; There must be a pre-lift safety meeting of all involved; The crane must do a test lift with the basket empty to be sure the crane is properly positioned; The man basket must then be loaded with the expected amount of weigt to be moved and another test lift must be performed; The crane operator must have positive communications with the people in the man basket.

    Many of you are likely in states that do not have a state OSHA plan, like me here in Louisiana. That means you fall under federal OSHA regulations which state that emergency responders are not required to follow the OSHA regulations. Under a state OSHA plan the emergency responders are required to follow OSHA standards or risk potentially hefty fines and possible jail time depending on how badly you screwed up.

    Even if you are in a non-OSHA state the lawyers can and will refer to the best practices contained in the appropriate OSHA standard and increase their chances of a successful lawsuit. All you have to do is be able to show in a court of law that what you did that got someone hurt or killed was a safer practice than the OSHA standard that covered it.

    I use cranes (actual ones, not fd ladder trucks) in industry during rescue standby jobs a lot. They are used as a fixed overhead anchor and not for moving personnel unless we can meet the requirements in 1926.550 and during an emergency we donít have time to go through all that pre-lift stuff.

    Mike

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    I thought all states were held to OSHA standards, but states could adopt their own standards only if the standards meet or exceed the fed OSHA standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    I thought all states were held to OSHA standards, but states could adopt their own standards only if the standards meet or exceed the fed OSHA standard.
    No, there are 26 non-OSHA states. That means they do not have to comply with OSHA regulations and cannot be cited by OSHA. If their state adopts a state OSHA plan then the FD's must follow those regulations.

    For example, an industrial facility in a non-OSHA state has a worker trapped in a permit-required confined space. The plant has no rescue team so they call 911 and the local FD responds. The FD is not very good and manages to kill 6 would-be rescuers. OSHA cannot cite that FD for their shortcomings but they will cite the plant because when the FD crosses the fence line on to plant property OSHA will consider the FD to be plant employees and will cite the plant because the FD was not properly trained and equipped for confined space rescue.

    Same scenario in an OSHA state = citations for the FD.

    Same scenario in either state probably = successful lawsuit.

    Please note......I am not advocating not attempting a rescue because of fears of a lawsuit or OSHA citation. Protect your people, do what you need to do to save the victim and deal with whatever happens after that. In the case of OSHA, we will contest the citation. National average is 98% likelihood for having the severity of the citation reduced, having it reduced to a paperwork violation or thrown out completely.

    Mike

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    I don't mean to quibble, but I disagree, or perhaps I am not understanding you correctly. Below is an excerpt from the OSH act of 1970.

    SEC. 18. State Jurisdiction and State Plans
    (a) Nothing in this Act shall prevent any State agency or court from asserting jurisdiction under State law over any occupational safety or health issue with respect to which no standard is in effect under section 6.

    (b) Any State which, at any time, desires to assume responsibility for development and enforcement therein of occupational safety and health standards relating to any occupational safety or health issue with respect to which a Federal standard has been promulgated under section 6 shall submit a State plan for the development of such standards and their enforcement.

    (c) The Secretary shall approve the plan submitted by a State under subsection (b), or any modification thereof, if such plan in his judgement --

    29 USC 667
    (1) designates a State agency or agencies as the agency or agencies responsible for administering the plan throughout the State,

    (2) provides for the development and enforcement of safety and health standards relating to one or more safety or health issues, which standards (and the enforcement of which standards) are or will be at least as effective in providing safe and healthful employment and places of employment as the standards promulgated under section 6 which relate to the same issues, and which standards, when applicable to products which are distributed or used in interstate commerce, are required by compelling local conditions and do not unduly burden interstate commerce,
    Source: https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...HACT&p_id=3372

    Also from OSHA FAQ

    What is a State OSHA Program?

    Section 18 of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (the Act) encourages States to develop and operate their own job safety and health programs. OSHA approves and monitors State plans and provides up to 50 percent of an approved plan's operating costs.

    There are currently 22 States and jurisdictions operating complete State plans (covering both the private sector and State and local government employees) and 5 - Connecticut, Illinois, New Jersey, New York and the Virgin Islands - which cover public employees only. (Eight other States were approved at one time but subsequently withdrew their programs).

    Alaska
    Arizona
    California
    Connecticut
    Hawaii
    Illinois Indiana
    Iowa
    Kentucky
    Maryland
    Michigan
    Minnesota
    Nevada
    New Mexico
    New Jersey
    New York North Carolina
    Oregon
    Puerto Rico
    South Carolina
    Tennessee
    Utah
    Vermont
    Virgin Islands
    Virginia
    Washington
    Wyoming

    (Please note that the Connecticut, Illinois, New Jersey, New York and Virgin Islands plans cover public sector employment only)

    States must set job safety and health standards that are "at least as effective as" comparable federal standards. (Most States adopt standards identical to federal ones.) States have the option to promulgate standards covering hazards not addressed by federal standards.

    http://www.osha.gov/dcsp/osp/faq.html#oshaprogram
    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 06-29-2013 at 10:16 PM.

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    Michael, you got it.

    OSHA state means that the state has stood up their own OSHA program at the state level that enforces OSHA or HIGHER standards. The state OSHA will handle the workplace safety and accident investigations.

    Non-OSHA states do not run their own state OSHA, though they may cover workplace safety under some other department. They fall under the same federal standards and will be investigated by federal OSHA for workplace accidents. It is sort of a misnomer, the non-OSHA states fall more under federal OSHA than the OSHA states.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Also, as I have consumed different and more training I have loosened up my views on the use of aerial ladder as a high help or "crane". I believe that if you are using your equipment within the confines of its abilities and have trained on the techniques, shoot go for it.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Don't forget to change out your hydraulic parts every so often, or you could risk a catastrophic failure! We purchase adapters and other parts from Hydraulics Direct (here is their website), but we've also ordered from Parker in the past.

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