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    Default UH OH!!! A training...opportunity!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zx3jtKEGus

    Saw on firefighter nation.

    This happens in my area quite frequently. Some departments have egos thinking "we're department 'Z', we don't need department 'X', we'll cancel them." I honestly pray for something like this to happen in my region so that a major change in policy occurs.

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    We've had stuff like this happen where I live. It's sad that ego is the reason for it.

    A few years back here. Our vol. department was on a fire call.Another 911 came in for another fire in our district. Our department was already on a scene so dispatch kicked out 3 other departments to respond. 1 arrived on scene from several miles away ( 6 minute response due to distance ) and the 2 other departments that were also dispatched that were 1:30 seconds away ( from house to scene ) just sat on their engine pads and did not respond all because they didn't wanna go to our district because we were a non union vol. district.

    Needless to say. The first company that actually did respond found the home fully involved and was screaming at dispatch as to why the 2 closest departments didn't show up at all. They both finally did show up 10 minutes later and refused to explain anything to the first companies Chief on scene and a fight almost broke out with the first company in and the other 2 departments. Their ego's cost 3 people their lives in the fire. 8 firefighters and 2 officers were fired the next day ( 5 from each non responding department ) and cost both cities millions.

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    What a dickhead.
    Bring enough hose.

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    That 712 is a guy I want to work for, Not. Some people need to revisit why we do this job. It's not about you, it's about the people who call 911.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFRENG1 View Post
    That 712 is a guy I want to work for, Not. Some people need to revisit why we do this job. It's not about you, it's about the people who call 911.
    Copy that!!!!
    Matt G.
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    Ego's...Ego's are a killer.

    The calling off the city PAID equipment before the VOLUNTEER companies were even on scene is a HUGE egotistical mistake. It would have been just as big a mistake had it been the PAID units calling off the VOLUNTEER units before arriving if the situation had been reversed.

    It seems like there is more here than meets the eye. A need for the volly AC to prove his guys can handle a chimney fire alone may have cost the property owner their home. Good fortune that no one was inside the home and that they weren't injured or killed.

    What is the mission? Seriously, every time one of these stupid ego driven incidents occurs I look at them and think what is the mission of the fire department? Saving lives and property...it really is that simple. Resources help us do that job and as soon as we can realize that, borders, pay status and anything else fades away and we do the job to the best benefit of our citizens we protect.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    If I were the chief of that circus, I would have relieved 7-12 of all duties right there on the spot, and then had a discussion about the error of his ways back at the firehouse later on, which would have followed with a black helmet in exchange for his white one.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    I don't know of any thing like that happening around me, but we'll have the biased M/A agreements. Such as vol. depts. bypassing paid ones for M/A.

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    EPIC..............FAIL. Here,he could by held liable for additional damages. T.C.

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    There's a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on here.

    I'm sure we've all run at least one call that wasn't what the dispatcher told us. And I'm sure many of us have called off units that probably were overkill based on what we knew about the call at the time. It's not at all unusual around here for the "home" chief to advise the automatic mutual aid companies to standby in quarters until units arrive on scene and do a size up - especially for automatic alarms, which as we all know are false most of the time.

    This particular chief may have run dozens of chimney fires where a single engine company could handle everything that needed to be done. And maybe once in a blue moon a chimney fire that had extended to the structure. In his experience, there was probably going to be no need for the mutual aid, so he cancelled it. Once he found out otherwise, he called for the help again.

    At no point did dispatch relay to him that there was more than a chimney fire happening there. Maybe nobody (ie, subsequent callers to 9-1-1) told the dispatcher, and maybe the dispatcher never relayed the information.

    In hindsight - sure, he made a mistake. If you were to listen to the call without any background information or the tidbits on the YouTube video, would you still think he made such a terrible mistake?
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    so whats the point of having units dispatched for AFAs (or any other alarm) if you are just going to cancel them everytime? If you are going to do that, just change the run card.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    so whats the point of having units dispatched for AFAs (or any other alarm) if you are just going to cancel them everytime? If you are going to do that, just change the run card.
    Blame dispatch and their not wanting to have too many different categories from which to choose. Thus everything from a fully involved commercial building to smoke in a dog house to an automatic alarm to a chimney fire is a "structure fire..."
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    We don't use AMA here.

    My last department, we used AMA quite a bit. During the day, when we knew we would not fill our trucks to our minimum staffing levels, AMA into our district rolled hot, and we rolled hot into the departments receiving AMA.

    At night, we still used AMA, however, it was quite common that we would get at least 3 full engines and a full crew on the tower, so we would, depending on the information given to us, either have the AMA roll cold, or have the AMA units roll cold to the edge of their districts and hold there.

    During the day, AMA was an essential part of the firefighting plan. At night, AMA was a backup that we would frequently call off or hold in their district if we had a 3/1 response. They would often do the same with us.

    I don't know what the staffing was here, but based on a reported chimney fire, if they meet their minimum structural response in house, to me it's a non-issue.

    As I understand it, there is a lot of vollie/career friction in that area, including a recent decrease in the roles of the volunteers, that may have contributed to this as well.

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    Thank God the city and county where I was from work well with each other. The city is paid, and county in volunteer/paid. They run mutual aid all the time, never had a problem like this before. This is so stupid!!! i hope he at least got a reprimand for this, if not a reduction in rank. Now, the EMS where I worked, they were a real peice of work. For instance, they would run convalecent calls all the time with emerg. ambulances, causing us to have to wait for an ambulance from another county, sometimes 30 min. out, all the time. Sucks explaining to a chest pain or shock victim why the ambulance isn't there yet. Even better, one time we ran a wreck, semi verses tree, on I-75 north bound. We had the bird out of Chattanooga coming down to pick up the lady passenger of the truck because she had some trauma that we felt was pretty dang urgent. Well, Whitfield EMS shows up, starts treating her and packages her up for an ambulance ride and cancels the bird. They tried to say it was because they could get her there in the same amount of time on the interstate. I call BS, and so did my LT. He even said something to them about it. I mean, what if they had gotten caught in traffic, which is a 30 min. drive on a low traffic day as it is, and that''s going emergency, and she had died of internal injuries because it took so long to get her to the trauma unit at Erlanger? The bird would have been there in less than half the time. The real kicker was that the bird was only about 1-2 min. out from the scene. The EMS crew just wanted to make some money for the company, it's privately owned BTW, not city, county, or state run/funded.

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    Happens in South Jersey.

    XYZ FD ****ed in my Cheerios/we don't like them/slept with my sister, we don't want them at our fire!
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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    Wow. We have a few volunteer depts near our city one one side and a couple careers on the other side. We use the volunteer depts mostly for their tankers if we need a water shuttle. However, if a volunteer dept is dispatched for an engine the dispatcher will usually automatically request one of the other city's career engines if they're available. Just because you don't always know the volunteer's response time depending on where their members are coming from.

    But we never cancel anyone until we have sufficient personnel ON GROUND. 712 needs to be relieved and/or disciplined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    There's a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on here.

    I'm sure we've all run at least one call that wasn't what the dispatcher told us. And I'm sure many of us have called off units that probably were overkill based on what we knew about the call at the time. It's not at all unusual around here for the "home" chief to advise the automatic mutual aid companies to standby in quarters until units arrive on scene and do a size up - especially for automatic alarms, which as we all know are false most of the time.

    This particular chief may have run dozens of chimney fires where a single engine company could handle everything that needed to be done. And maybe once in a blue moon a chimney fire that had extended to the structure. In his experience, there was probably going to be no need for the mutual aid, so he cancelled it. Once he found out otherwise, he called for the help again.

    At no point did dispatch relay to him that there was more than a chimney fire happening there. Maybe nobody (ie, subsequent callers to 9-1-1) told the dispatcher, and maybe the dispatcher never relayed the information.

    In hindsight - sure, he made a mistake. If you were to listen to the call without any background information or the tidbits on the YouTube video, would you still think he made such a terrible mistake?
    Speaking only for OUR agency,a CHIMNEY fire is a STRUCTURE fire until proven otherwise by OUR personnel. Dispatched as such. If the ON SCENE Chief or Officer determines that it is a low level event(AFTER a thorough Size up)he can downgrade the box.Here chimney fires are not to be taken lightly as they are often in big old Farmhouses with chimneys that may or may not be in the best of shape. They've been the start of some pretty interesting calls in my 40 some years here. Still say it's P poor practice to return ANYTHING unless you're on scene. Wouldn't be tolerated here. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Speaking only for OUR agency,a CHIMNEY fire is a STRUCTURE fire until proven otherwise by OUR personnel. Dispatched as such. If the ON SCENE Chief or Officer determines that it is a low level event(AFTER a thorough Size up)he can downgrade the box.Here chimney fires are not to be taken lightly as they are often in big old Farmhouses with chimneys that may or may not be in the best of shape. They've been the start of some pretty interesting calls in my 40 some years here. Still say it's P poor practice to return ANYTHING unless you're on scene. Wouldn't be tolerated here. T.C.
    Same in Dalton. A fire in a structure gets full alarm until verified visaully as otherwise. We would rather run too many units than not run enough and someone lose everything they own. We even run a full alarm on automatic alarms.

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    Did you also see this video from the same fire...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMulBF0qGKI
    FF-II/EMT-B/Incident Safety Officer/Photographer
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    First run area (Fire): Lancaster, NH & Guildhall, VT (84.3 Sq Miles)
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanWert View Post
    Did you also see this video from the same fire...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMulBF0qGKI
    I wonder if this same genius is 7-12? If so, explains A LOT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    There's a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on here.

    I'm sure we've all run at least one call that wasn't what the dispatcher told us. And I'm sure many of us have called off units that probably were overkill based on what we knew about the call at the time. It's not at all unusual around here for the "home" chief to advise the automatic mutual aid companies to standby in quarters until units arrive on scene and do a size up - especially for automatic alarms, which as we all know are false most of the time.

    This particular chief may have run dozens of chimney fires where a single engine company could handle everything that needed to be done. And maybe once in a blue moon a chimney fire that had extended to the structure. In his experience, there was probably going to be no need for the mutual aid, so he cancelled it. Once he found out otherwise, he called for the help again.

    At no point did dispatch relay to him that there was more than a chimney fire happening there. Maybe nobody (ie, subsequent callers to 9-1-1) told the dispatcher, and maybe the dispatcher never relayed the information.

    In hindsight - sure, he made a mistake. If you were to listen to the call without any background information or the tidbits on the YouTube video, would you still think he made such a terrible mistake?
    Monday morning quarterbacking? Are you frigging kidding me? The AC cancelled the city units BEFORE he was on location. It is entirely one thing to cancel additional units, or have them respond in non-emergency, once you are on scene and another to cancel them BEFORE any units are on scene. This was a HUGE mistake on his part, not a bad judegment call, not a whoops, not a we have handled chimney fires with this many before assumption, he Screwed Up big time and should be severely reprimanded or lose his chief's position.

    Like I said before ego's...
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    In this situation i would hope that someone would have been held accountable for this situation. People need to get over the tough guy mindset that FDs had 20 years ago. This is modern day America, there is no reason that 2 fire depts paid, or volunteer cannot get along and work together. Bad stuff happens when people cant get over their egos and work together. Just last year we had a reported "bale of hay on fire outside a warehouse" first arriving chief canceled all responding mutual aid, his dept would handle it. Upon investigation of the fire the Bale of hay was actually a Bale of pulp inside a warehouse full of the same stuff. The fire spread rapidly into the attic space and spread throughout the roof, it ended up being a multimillion dollar loss and a 4 day fire.
    Why people would send units home before they are even on scene is ludicrous. How can you make any tactical decisions when you cannot see the scene? you cant. Its situations like this that make people open their eyes. People get complacent with chimney fires, AFAs, Reported "smoke in the area", and other service calls. One of these days the AFA or Smoke in the area calls are going to be structure fires, like this one.
    Personally in my town they have gone away from sending 3 towns to chimney fires, one day someone will lose their house, and hopefully thats all, like this and they will go back, but sadly i feel that is what it will take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Like I said before ego's...
    Quote Originally Posted by mrpita View Post
    As I was told in the academy...

    100 FFers from 100 different departments can be asked "Who's the best?" and all 100 should answer "Mine." They'd all be right. If any one of them don't answer that way, that one department has some real deep-seated issues with discipline, pride, and tradition.
    Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zackman1801 View Post
    In this situation i would hope that someone would have been held accountable for this situation. People need to get over the tough guy mindset that FDs had 20 years ago. This is modern day America, there is no reason that 2 fire depts paid, or volunteer cannot get along and work together. Bad stuff happens when people cant get over their egos and work together. Just last year we had a reported "bale of hay on fire outside a warehouse" first arriving chief canceled all responding mutual aid, his dept would handle it. Upon investigation of the fire the Bale of hay was actually a Bale of pulp inside a warehouse full of the same stuff. The fire spread rapidly into the attic space and spread throughout the roof, it ended up being a multimillion dollar loss and a 4 day fire.
    Why people would send units home before they are even on scene is ludicrous. How can you make any tactical decisions when you cannot see the scene? you cant. Its situations like this that make people open their eyes. People get complacent with chimney fires, AFAs, Reported "smoke in the area", and other service calls. One of these days the AFA or Smoke in the area calls are going to be structure fires, like this one.
    Personally in my town they have gone away from sending 3 towns to chimney fires, one day someone will lose their house, and hopefully thats all, like this and they will go back, but sadly i feel that is what it will take.
    I could agree more.

    I see no reason what so ever volunteer and paid departments can not get along and work and train together as brothers. Both paid and vol. do the same job,just one does it for free and the other does it as a career. Nothing wrong with either. Being a volunteer in an all paid county. I see some bias towards us,but not a lot. At least not to our face.What is said when we leave a scene is a different story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
    Not at all, and for the life of me I can't understand why you would defend such an absolutely indefensible action.

    Again, the call came in as a FIRE, yes, a chimney fire, but still a fire. The units are on the road, if you think you can handle it have them continue in non-emergency until you get on scene and evaluate. THEN make the determination whether to have them continue non-emergency, upgrade to emergency, or return them to quarters. To cancel units for a call of a fire before ANYONE arrives is unbelievable to me. I can't find a single reason to support that action.

    Darned if you do, darned if you don't? Yepper, that would be a good defense in court when the property owner's attorney asks you why you sent back half of the responding units before you ever arrived at the scene? Could prove to cost more than just a little embarrassment...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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