OK this is how it is for us, there is one guy with a fire tunic on, not done up and what looks like a baseball cap. Ok it could be a passer buy etc who is wearing it for warmth, but if that was a FF in the service i work for they would be disciplined for that lvl of dress at an incident.
All the others would be in the outer cordon unless in correct PPE and part of the rescue.
Are we not responsible for everyones safety?
We are not making an uneducated and uninformed assumption about the stability of the vehicle. That assumption is educated and informed based on experience and knowlege of vehicles design. This educated and informed assumption is reinforced by the apparent actions of the crews on scene. Done, end of discussion on vehicle stability.
As far as the patient condition, neither you nor I have any knowlege of this. There is nothing in the picture or description. R101 and I are making an educated and informed suggestion that the crew is acting properly based on whatever the situation in there happens to be and the resources on scene during the 1/400th of a second captured in the photograph.
For all you know the guys on scene got there in their POV because they live on the way to the station and there isn't even an apparatus or incident command on scene yet. Based on the small number of people on scene, this is actually pretty likely.
Ok, I didn't put it as best as I could when I talked about the ground giving way. To me, it looks like the vehicle is on a slope. I meant if the ground could not support the load on that slope.
Well, I made my post out on the information given to me by all of my training and experience that says, stabilization should be done before entering the vehicle.
You are all right by saying we do not know what the conditions are. I do not see the need to skip this step, even if you BELIEVE you are certain that the vehilce cannot move. Some sort of cribbing should be done in the even something does happen and the vehicle shifts.
I can SUGGEST to LE they vacate the area unless they suit up. They, in turn ,CAN ARREST me for "interfereing" with an investigation. Like I alluded to you earlier,differing ways of doing things.
Going to the STABILITY issue. I'm 100% comfortable with my assessment of this vehicle being basically stable.Get one and try it yourself if you don't believe me.As far as the patients,for ME it's no problem. OUR only mission is provide whatever access is needed for the Medics and assist under THEIR direction.And I'd say we're having a meaningful discussion here once everybody rubs their feathers down.
What we do in Maine will be different than NY, Maryland, Texas and almost anywhere else. We ALL have different Laws,procedures,and "Dress" codes. In the end,if you have a Viable patient,no one got hurt, then it was a GOOD operation. THEN I get to work MY magic,put it back on it's wheels. T.C.
You are obviously greatly misunderstanding my points, i have had enough of your insults on my intelligence and knowledge, you do not know me as much as we do not know the topic pictures, so stop judging me. If you are not up for the exchange of information without turning to insults, then perhaps you should think twice before posting.
I never questioned anyones experience, or actually called anyone an idiot, if this is the response one gets from taking part in this forum, then i will think twice before re-visit this forum.
rescue101 i know what you are saying and yes i have been in similar situations, our protocol will still be to add some type of stability, thanks for keeping it relative without the insults :)
There have been some great posts in the past, this one seems very short sited.
Sorry to the other posters that it has turned this way.
Again, I'm not judging anyone. Just pointing out simple facts.
Mickey,I'm OK with your assessment if indeed you feel that way.HOW are you going to remedy it? Using WHAT equipment? I've stated my views and reasoning,so now it's YOUR turn. Give up YOUR solution,and what equipment you will utilize to make it happen.Keep in mind this MAY be 100's of feet from the highway. T.C.
OK Jonny,I'm pinning you to the spinwheel. HOW are YOU( your agency)going to "secure" this wreck?
As I advised Mickey you MAY be 100's of feet from the road.
And HOW will this affect your procedure?
How common is this type of vehicle in your area(Xtra cab pickup)? You're up,buddy. T.C.
we have obviously got off on the wrong foot, sorry. I hope we can make amends? i am sorry if have made you feel you don't want to see me here again.
Yes i am assuming a lot from the pictures.
As this is an extrication forum i would expect this pic to be of an extrication.
Yes i am sure we have all been to bad accidents where the driver / passenger has got up and walked away before we arrive, but that would not leave us much to talk about if that was always the case.
Ok fair one putting me on the case: remember this is our protocols. Its not how would i, its how would we the rescue team.
Initial scene assessment and safety with Firefighting media set up
Casualty access and assessment
NO matter how far from the road initial stability would be set up using StaBfast, with either blocks and wedges or possibly the use of air matts. We put in control measures to remove the risk, and there is always a measured level of risk. You could say overkill, or you could say its a good idea to implement some type of simple risk control.
Only rescue personnel with a task in the immediate area.(we would possibly have a crew of 9 FF's within the space of 5-10 mins) unlike yourselves. So again that makes a difference.
I agree if the medics decide that the casualty is ok we would then assist with their removal and no space creation may be needed.
If extrication is needed the fire service is responsible for the rescue, working inline with medical intervention, the police would leave us to it and investigate after the casualty has been removed, the only time this changes is for a fatality.
once the lvl of entrapment is determined we would determine the extrication plan, the stability would have been set up to leave these options open
casualty package and removal
This vehicle is not that common, but our stability sops are the same if not slight adapted for each scenario.
This i thought would be what posts we would be writing to exchange these ideas.
I look forward to the next beating with a stick :) JUst Kidding
Jonny,Constructive observations: You better have some TALL bags or a Schitload of cribbing. Rear area of body will be in EXCESS of 4' off the(probably closer to 5') ground,MINIMUM. Without trucking a truckload of stuff down there,the ONLY practical way is a telescoping strut. So that you and I are on common terms,the Width of this cab is about 6' and the length of the roof approaches 5'. As I mentioned earlier these fold a little in the middle when they roll and form a pocket near the axis with the A posts.Get your calculator out but anywhere I went to school thats a pretty good Footprint. Making a Extrication plan shouldn't take long. Takes 1000- 1800# of force to start this vehicle back upright. Will take probably about 1000# to get it to move ANYWHERE unless the grass is WET. T.C.
Thanks for the additional info on the cab dimensions, yes i agree a good surface area intact with the ground, should be pretty stable.
We use 2 sizes of StaBfast one for large vehicles / trucks etc these would be set up either side at around the rear third area, this would support the vehicle should there be a problem or if any supports need to be removed. you might say with your experience that this is going over the top, but that is our policy that we have to work too. Cribbing and wedges would be used against the bulk head gaps and additional packing under any posts as deemed necessary the StaBfast will be supporting the main load by displacing the weight down through the struts onto a solid platform to avoid sinking into the ground.
Trust me,I've NEVER had an "arguement" here that didn't benefit our operations somewhere along the line. Any chance you could provide a link to the Stabfast units? I suspect they are like our Rut struts. Nevermind,Found them. Yup,that's the way to go on this job.Thanks,T.C.
As to the picture itself, I see what appears to me, that there is a backboard on the ground. This signifies to me that there is a patient inside and that this is an active rescue, there is some form of apparatus on scene to provide at the least, medical equipment. I also see two people in what appears to be matching uniforms with no gun belt and medical gloves and a third under the vehicle similarly dressed. I am assuming that these are medical personnel.
I am in PA. We are not an OSHA state. We have found out that even though that is true, any accident will be investigated by OSHA. With that being said, everyone in the hot zone MUST have at a minimum of flame retardent clothing, gloves, hard hat, and eye protection.
In my department:
We are full volunteer and provide EMS (non-transport) as well as fire and rescue. We respond to MVA with light rescue, engine, and utility for additional manpower. We would respond with full PPE. As we do not have extrication suits, this is turnout gear. We do have hard hats for vehicle rescues in lieu of fire helmet. Those with patient contact would have medical gloves. No one would be under the rear of the vehicle until stabilized (verbal assessment could be done without entering the "collapse zone"). The vehicle would be stabilized with a simple picket system from the front of the vehicle from both front corners. If this is not done within 2-3 minutes, we are not doing it properly.
In PA, we are legally responsible for the safety of the patient, people responding, and the public on the scene of an emergency response unless it is an assist to PD. If the police officer does not listen to us and by doing so endangers any one of the aforementioned groups, he is the one that will face disciplinary hearings. Once the patient has been extricated and is enroute to medical care, the scene is then reverted to the jurisdiction of the police.
I do not criticize what other people have posted as their SOP's, governing laws, and experience my be different than mine. Our department has been through the legal system with people injured (not from our department, but on a mutual aid call) and can attest that the lawyers will immediately go after lack of PPE and adherance to SOP's especially on scene safety.
The standard of care is to stabilize the vehicle, period end of story.
Yes, odds are nothing will happen to the responders or patient, but that is not what a professional rescuer does. I would go with a buttress system (because we have one) but cribbing is possible and cheap.
Proper PPE is required yet that may not be turnouts. Our USAR teams enter collapsed buildings in BDU's so why does a crash require structural firefighting gear?
Extinguisher as a minimum for protection.
No auto maker makes vehicles that sit on their roof, something could happen so as a professional we need to do what is right, not convenient, not fastest but the correct thing.
ACTUALLY,your statement is a bit misleading.Auto mfgs DO make the roof columns and the roof the way they do for JUST this eventuality. They ARE an Engineered structure.If this were NOT so,why bother putting Boron and other enhancements in the posts? I guess we could argue the Right/not fastest thing all day.Still comes back to: EXPERIENCE,Patient condition,safety, available manpower/tools and protocol/Sop's or Sog's. Could this be CRIBBED? Maybe but unless you crib ONLY under the roof area(on the corners)it's gonna take more cribbing than MOST of us carry on our rig. This picture offers LITTLE background so it's wide open to interpretation. We can't see if maybe just off camera is a Fire extingusher and we REALLY can't get a good feel for Slope/Ground conditions. T.C.
I agree that turnouts are not the optimal PPE for an accident /extrication. However, my department has a very limited budget (<$50,000 a year for all building, truck, gear, and fundraising), so we cannot afford to purchase separate PPE for each type of incident.
Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD
As to the buttresses, we do not own any (see the above budgetary constraints) but a pickett system can be built of materials costing less than $100. When you use existing tools such as pry bars or others, that price is even further reduced.
Rescue101, as you know that is rollover protection. it is designed to keep the occupants safe in a rollover crash. It is not meant to be a stable extrication platform. This really shouldn't be a debate. Their isn't a text that I have seen that advocates leaving a vehicle to the compromised safety structure that a manufacturer installs. They ALL advocate stabilization prior to extrication / access.
We should use this picture as a "how would we do it" not as a model for how it should be done. Any of these pictures should be a training aid and enforcing basic procedures. Unless the vehicle is on fire and about to explode like in a movie you can't justify in court, to your peers that not stabilizing the vehicle was in everyone's best interest.
OK. This vehicle is stable.How much MORE stable you want to make it is up to YOU or your agency. Debate is good as is differing opinions. I'm QUITE comfortable I can work around this vehicle WITHOUT getting injured or injuring anyone else. I don't know the patients condition,or what equipment was available to do the job from two shapshots. I DO know this vehicle. WELL. I also KNOW what it will take to move it and given a similar vehicle on similar ground conditions in the same position on the training ground,I CAN prove,with a dynometer and a winch rope EXACTLY how much force it will take to move it. I've done this often enough to KNOW. In ANY operation there will be a little guesswork and NO MATTER what you do,not ALL hazards can be eliminated.I said way back in about my first post,I would utilize struts. But IF I didn't have struts or a pile of cribbing. I would still WORK this job. T.C.
That's not the standard of care. A car on its wheels that needs a door popped isn't stable until chocked. This truck is no where near stable.
A prudent rescuer in the same situation would stabilize the vehicle. Ask Ron, this vehicle is not stable until we intervene and stabilize it.
Just because nothing has happened to you doesn't mean you can disreguard the standard of care.
And the standard of care in Paraguay? Again,it is location dependant. I GUARANTEE the "standard of care" is different in Texas than Maine,since you threw Ron's name into it. I've also agreed that I would use struts if it were MY job. But in the absence of all this equipment,using my experience,training,and repeat knowledge I KNOW this vehicle is going NOWHERE. When I'm not towing,I'm REPAIRING vehicles as I have for 40 plus years. I've cut hundreds of vehicles. While I'm not disagreeing with you,the modern vehicle is a TOUGH piece of steel. As a result of towing thousands of vehicles you develop a working knowledge of strong and weak points on them. Do what your training and local laws dictates. That and ONLY that is what is"RIGHT". But the "standard" is just about as STANDARD as anything else we do. Varies State to State and isn't standard AT ALL no matter how many laws or standards we pass. T.C.
Difficult when so many have different sops sogs etc and laws.
Extrication should be about exchanging ideas and learning from each other regardless of where we are from, with an open mind to give the end customer (the casualty) the best possible care and positive outcome for their future.
we need to remove the tunnel vision and embrace change and skills, for the next incident.
We can experience something a 1000 times but its the one that catches us out that we need to have prepared for
That's kinda what I've been trying to say. But as usual,it doesn't work. I guess I'll stay in my little corner of the world where the IC's are allowed a little latitude to get the job done. Book or no book. I understand the concept of the by the book,"perfect" rescue. That being said,I FULLY understand the REALITY of vehicle rescue and recovery and it isn't ALWAYS pristine. Exchanging ideas is great and I challenge the naysayers to try this and other situations on the training ground; There,in SAFE, nonpressured conditions,you can experiment and learn. I don't pull this stuff out of my azz,anything I say here,I've already done. Some things many,many times. If they don't fit your model or operations;DON'T DO IT. But PLEASE don't tell me you can't do it unless you've done the same job multiple times or had a DOCUMENTED failure in what I describe. You notice the upcoming surge in "cross" training towing operators and Fire personnel. I've been doing that LONG before it became the buzz word. I'm NOT a Nationally recognized Trainer,nor do I care. You have a vehicle rescue problem,I PROBABLY have the solution. At the age of 6 I had wrecker controls in my hand.Running the truck while Dad supervised.We've been involved with vehicle rescue for over a half century and in that time,BELIEVE me I've learned(and done)some stuff others here would find impossible. I take a LOT of pride in the lives of victims that we gave another chance. And I will continue to do so until I'm no longer able. T.C.
If this were my scene I'd use our struts to stabilize the back. It's probably not necessary given the way the truck is sitting but they're on the Rescue and don't take any time to set up. In our operation depending on staffing stabilization and initial patient evaluation would occur in near parallel. Just need to make sure the struts set up in such a way to not block access out the rear.
I'm curious how a picket system from the front would help secure the rear. I'm picturing a cable from the picket to the rear axle or hatch along with the front hood secured to keep it from sliding when the picket is tightened. Wouldn't you also need a high point to give the picket some pull along the verticle axis? Not sure if it's something as high as an A-frame but cribbing between the cable and truck underbody at the mid-point?
My thoughts on the picketts were to run a line to each front wheel (suspension actually) to form a triangle. This will keep the vehicle from rotating while being able to apply some down pressure on the front of the vehicle to keep it from rocking backwards where patient access has been established. Step chocks, cribbing, or other pickets could be used by the A posts to keep the vehicle from sliding forward.
Another thing I just noticed is the toolbox. Is it bolted to the bed, held by clamps, or how secure is it? Everything is going to be passed under it so I should probably have that checked as well. Obviously we can't answer those questions without being there, but it caught my eye this last time I looked at the pictures.
Ahh, ok. Basically hold the front down.. rather then trying to lift the back up.
Good point on the tool kit..