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  1. #41
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    Proper PPE is required yet that may not be turnouts. Our USAR teams enter collapsed buildings in BDU's so why does a crash require structural firefighting gear?
    I agree that turnouts are not the optimal PPE for an accident /extrication. However, my department has a very limited budget (<$50,000 a year for all building, truck, gear, and fundraising), so we cannot afford to purchase separate PPE for each type of incident.

    As to the buttresses, we do not own any (see the above budgetary constraints) but a pickett system can be built of materials costing less than $100. When you use existing tools such as pry bars or others, that price is even further reduced.


  2. #42
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    Rescue101, as you know that is rollover protection. it is designed to keep the occupants safe in a rollover crash. It is not meant to be a stable extrication platform. This really shouldn't be a debate. Their isn't a text that I have seen that advocates leaving a vehicle to the compromised safety structure that a manufacturer installs. They ALL advocate stabilization prior to extrication / access.
    We should use this picture as a "how would we do it" not as a model for how it should be done. Any of these pictures should be a training aid and enforcing basic procedures. Unless the vehicle is on fire and about to explode like in a movie you can't justify in court, to your peers that not stabilizing the vehicle was in everyone's best interest.

  3. #43
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    OK. This vehicle is stable.How much MORE stable you want to make it is up to YOU or your agency. Debate is good as is differing opinions. I'm QUITE comfortable I can work around this vehicle WITHOUT getting injured or injuring anyone else. I don't know the patients condition,or what equipment was available to do the job from two shapshots. I DO know this vehicle. WELL. I also KNOW what it will take to move it and given a similar vehicle on similar ground conditions in the same position on the training ground,I CAN prove,with a dynometer and a winch rope EXACTLY how much force it will take to move it. I've done this often enough to KNOW. In ANY operation there will be a little guesswork and NO MATTER what you do,not ALL hazards can be eliminated.I said way back in about my first post,I would utilize struts. But IF I didn't have struts or a pile of cribbing. I would still WORK this job. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 07-13-2010 at 11:12 AM.

  4. #44
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    That's not the standard of care. A car on its wheels that needs a door popped isn't stable until chocked. This truck is no where near stable.
    A prudent rescuer in the same situation would stabilize the vehicle. Ask Ron, this vehicle is not stable until we intervene and stabilize it.
    Just because nothing has happened to you doesn't mean you can disreguard the standard of care.

  5. #45
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    And the standard of care in Paraguay? Again,it is location dependant. I GUARANTEE the "standard of care" is different in Texas than Maine,since you threw Ron's name into it. I've also agreed that I would use struts if it were MY job. But in the absence of all this equipment,using my experience,training,and repeat knowledge I KNOW this vehicle is going NOWHERE. When I'm not towing,I'm REPAIRING vehicles as I have for 40 plus years. I've cut hundreds of vehicles. While I'm not disagreeing with you,the modern vehicle is a TOUGH piece of steel. As a result of towing thousands of vehicles you develop a working knowledge of strong and weak points on them. Do what your training and local laws dictates. That and ONLY that is what is"RIGHT". But the "standard" is just about as STANDARD as anything else we do. Varies State to State and isn't standard AT ALL no matter how many laws or standards we pass. T.C.

  6. #46
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    Difficult when so many have different sops sogs etc and laws.

    Extrication should be about exchanging ideas and learning from each other regardless of where we are from, with an open mind to give the end customer (the casualty) the best possible care and positive outcome for their future.

    we need to remove the tunnel vision and embrace change and skills, for the next incident.

    We can experience something a 1000 times but its the one that catches us out that we need to have prepared for

    John

  7. #47
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    That's kinda what I've been trying to say. But as usual,it doesn't work. I guess I'll stay in my little corner of the world where the IC's are allowed a little latitude to get the job done. Book or no book. I understand the concept of the by the book,"perfect" rescue. That being said,I FULLY understand the REALITY of vehicle rescue and recovery and it isn't ALWAYS pristine. Exchanging ideas is great and I challenge the naysayers to try this and other situations on the training ground; There,in SAFE, nonpressured conditions,you can experiment and learn. I don't pull this stuff out of my azz,anything I say here,I've already done. Some things many,many times. If they don't fit your model or operations;DON'T DO IT. But PLEASE don't tell me you can't do it unless you've done the same job multiple times or had a DOCUMENTED failure in what I describe. You notice the upcoming surge in "cross" training towing operators and Fire personnel. I've been doing that LONG before it became the buzz word. I'm NOT a Nationally recognized Trainer,nor do I care. You have a vehicle rescue problem,I PROBABLY have the solution. At the age of 6 I had wrecker controls in my hand.Running the truck while Dad supervised.We've been involved with vehicle rescue for over a half century and in that time,BELIEVE me I've learned(and done)some stuff others here would find impossible. I take a LOT of pride in the lives of victims that we gave another chance. And I will continue to do so until I'm no longer able. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 06-17-2010 at 08:35 PM.

  8. #48
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    If this were my scene I'd use our struts to stabilize the back. It's probably not necessary given the way the truck is sitting but they're on the Rescue and don't take any time to set up. In our operation depending on staffing stabilization and initial patient evaluation would occur in near parallel. Just need to make sure the struts set up in such a way to not block access out the rear.

    I'm curious how a picket system from the front would help secure the rear. I'm picturing a cable from the picket to the rear axle or hatch along with the front hood secured to keep it from sliding when the picket is tightened. Wouldn't you also need a high point to give the picket some pull along the verticle axis? Not sure if it's something as high as an A-frame but cribbing between the cable and truck underbody at the mid-point?
    So you call this your free country
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  9. #49
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    My thoughts on the picketts were to run a line to each front wheel (suspension actually) to form a triangle. This will keep the vehicle from rotating while being able to apply some down pressure on the front of the vehicle to keep it from rocking backwards where patient access has been established. Step chocks, cribbing, or other pickets could be used by the A posts to keep the vehicle from sliding forward.

    Another thing I just noticed is the toolbox. Is it bolted to the bed, held by clamps, or how secure is it? Everything is going to be passed under it so I should probably have that checked as well. Obviously we can't answer those questions without being there, but it caught my eye this last time I looked at the pictures.

  10. #50
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    Ahh, ok. Basically hold the front down.. rather then trying to lift the back up.

    Good point on the tool kit..
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:15 PM.
    So you call this your free country
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  11. #51
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Most of the time(almost always) that type of toolbox is BOLTED to the bed. No good way to clamp them. Still a good idea to check it before working UNDER it. T.C.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:16 PM.

  12. #52
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    I did post a couple of replies (go back and check), but then got busy going around in circles on a hay cutter and haven't had time to check back in till today. Thank God we're getting some rain here in southeast Texas.

    If you look at the pics, they're also on a slope, so I'm going to reiterate what I said originally, that I'd prefer to have some sort of stabilization first before I (or one of my guys) crawled underneath that truck.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:16 PM.

  13. #53
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    Advanced Extrication Technician certified, 20+ years experience, coordinator for training schools hosting both Billy Leach and Lee Junkins.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:17 PM.

  14. #54
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    Vehicle stability does not end with YOUR experience or vehicle design. It depends heavily on the way that vehicle is resting and the ground the vehicle is resting up. Did you notice the upward slope away from the camera?

    I KNOW that the roof won't collapse (DUH!!!), what concerns me is the vehicle shifting with that many people under and around it.

    It could be a small rural department and this is their normal response. You're the one making the assumption that everyone showed up POV.

    Someone mentioned the one guy in the baseball cap wearing his coat for warmth. Not the case at all. This pic was taken a couple of weeks ago and in southeast Texas.

    The purpose of my post was not to bash on these guys, but rather to use it as a learning opportunity to keep someone else from getting hurt in the future.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:18 PM.

  15. #55
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    That's why I asked if you had more pics as it is hard to really see whats happening from the two shots.

    Look CAREFULLY at the side shot and you will see where I'm basing my initial observations: Drivers door is partially opened and I DO NOT believe that is crash related. Rear structure of cab appears to be intact,gap to rear body is skewed by bend in rear P/u body. Cab appears to have SOME front crush,consistant with what I've experienced in recovering quite a few of these. They appear to be on pasture land which tends to "wad" up under the cab. This adds a degree of stability to the cab area.

    Now it would be NICE if there were a few more pics so you could get perspective on slope,access,and ACTUAL ground conditions. I'm still VERY comfortable that this PARTICULAR scenerio presents NO life threating condition to anybody there,BASED ON THE PICTURE. I'd still prefer to use a couple struts on the rear,just 'cause but unless that grass is WET,it will take quite a lot of energy to get it to move. It really won't rock much either unless you get under the rear of the bed(long lever).

    If you get the chance,try reproducing this on the training ground,let me know what you find out. If you have access to someone with a load cell,set it up and see how energy it takes to move it. I think you would be surprised. T.C.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:19 PM.

  16. #56
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    Sorry TC, these are the only pics I have.

    From my point of view, it looks like it's on the opposite slope of the road ditch.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:19 PM.

  17. #57
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    Default Always Stabilize

    On the majority of roof resting vehicles the front end is inverted due to the weight of the motor. Quick stabilization can be accomplished on these in less than 2 minutes. Wedges placed at the front of the vehicle, larger wedges or inverted step chocks inserted perpendicular to the vehicle at the A-Pillars and larger wedges or inverted step chocks inserted at 45 degree angles at the C-Pillars. This fills the voids at the structural points and limits movement in all planes. Buttress stabilization can also be added if necessary. Inverting the step chocks makes them into large wedges which work quite well for this. We have also found the large wedge bases from the ResQTec rapid stairs to work well in these situations.

  18. #58
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    ......................t.c.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:20 PM.

  19. #59
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    More pix would just lend itself to better more informed decisions. And further our look at this incident.

    In the RESCUE world you look at things a little different than we do in the RECOVERY world. Keep in mind I've been in the RECOVERY world Waaay before there were three Safety Nazi's for every worker present. DO NOT misrepresent this to say I'm opposed to safety,FAR from it. But when these pictures become DAILY occurances under varying conditions you get pretty experienced at knowing WHAT is going to happen and WHEN. And I LOVE to go playing in the training ground,It's paid back dividends MANY here could only dream of.

    I've had the pleasure of working with Billy for a number of years now,we have a GREAT time and present the students with a number of challenges they are apt to see on the street. As I mentioned earlier,I have Wreckmaster certs and one thing Donnie ALWAYS told us: NEVER perform in Public what you HAVEN'T PRACTICED in Private.

    If this vehicle was in WET grass or Snow/Ice, I would do things much differently that I would as presented. But I'm QUITE serious when I say TRY this at home. Get a backhoe and cave the front a little(like this one)Roll it over,then push it ahead with the hoe about 6-10'.See if what I told you isn't pretty accurate.Love the trick/difficult rescues.With my Fire side COMBINED with the TOWING side,makes the job faster,easier and SAFER. T.C.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:21 PM.

  20. #60
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    Default Cribbing....Really?

    Lets start with cribbing of the vehicle. It would be nice to see some crib stacks in the rear and if the trucks on a in-or decline struts would be nice.
    Thats the basics....right? You would hope
    Mike Donahue
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