1. #1
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    Default What's wrong with these pictures?

    Just thought I'd post these to get feedback from everyone here.
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    Someone ruined a perfectly good truck.
    FF/Paramedic

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    Not safe is my vote.

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    Oh, it's all okay. That one cop is stabilizing the whole thing with his one hand. I'm sure that's why the safety officer isn't saying anything.

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    If you think that truck is really going anywhere,even without buttresses,it ISN'T . The roll has partially collapsed the windshield area and the weight of engine/trans will keep the nose down. The REAR of the Cab is INTACT which will keep the back up. A scenerio I've recovered many,many times. That being said,there SHOULD be a pair of buttresses to the rear of the vehicle. My educated guess is they are extracting the occupants thru the rear window area. Smart? Not particularly. But not as bad as some of the things I've seen. Takes quite a lot of energy to get that off the roof and righted. Even though it isn't right(quite wrong actually) there is little chance of anyone getting hurt here unless they start cutting. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 06-13-2010 at 06:01 PM.

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    My thoughts exactly. It even looks like the hill slopes downward, which would further make the rear end coming down highly unlikley.

    I have yet to see or hear of a pickup truck on it's roof falling backwards towards the bed with an intact roof.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 10:54 PM.

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    Whats wrong wit the pic? the truck ison its roof.

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    Well, for one I'd sure like to have some sort of stabilization, be it buttresses or at least having the front end tied off to something. I know the roof isn't going to collapse, but I'd sure like to be d@mn sure it wouldn't rotate down on me.

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    Regardless if you THINK it's not going to go anywhere, the vehicle should still be stabilized. That could of hurt a good number of people if something were to happen and the vehicle shifted.

    And the structual parts of the truck is not the only thing to look at here. What if the ground below the vehicle gave way? Then yeah, you're right, the cab did support the 5000+ pounds, but the ground sure didn't..

    Mickey

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    If the GROUND won't support a X-cab,WHAT do you think is going to support your struts? You better bring some 4x8 sheets of HEAVY grade plywood.I'm basing my observations over working a BUNCH of these on the TOWING side. Ground would have to be quicksand or river mud before the cab area wouldn't give you good support. When these roll,they cave in the front and the middle,making a dish if you will. Add a little soft dirt and they're pretty stable.Oh,not as stable as if you used a strut but they WON'T fall on you.Now as far as tying it off,not a bad idea but to what? I can't see the road,I can see a bush or two but they won't hold 4000 that doesn't wanna stay. You can use ground anchors but that again is soil dependent. So HOW would you like to stabilize this? I've got a few ideas but participation is welcomed. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 06-14-2010 at 11:30 AM.

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    Simpleguy,you got any more pics of this? Like road proximity,slope,anything like that? Picture queries are always FUN,particularly if you can build the lesson off expanding information,just like fires. This one as represented is easy but you could EASILY add some obstacles. T.C.

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    This is where a BRR class comes in handy. Billy uses scenerios like this one to demonstrate how stable(or NOT)the vehicle is,what the best way to stabilize is and HOW Towing operators CAN assist you.AND you get to see what we do after the patients are removed.AND how much energy(pull) is required to make that happen. Applies to ALL vehicle rescue NOT just Big Rigs. Wonder what we're going to serve up this year? hehe T.C.

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    I agree with R101 completely. There is absolutely no risk of the truck tipping back. To say "well you never know" is totally unrealistic. Unless a fault line opens up a mass cavern under the truck swallowing it whole, nothing is going anywhere. There is clearly a patient (or up to four or five patients) trapped in a perfectly stable truck. If you want to spend your time propping up something that is already propped up rather than getting the trauma patients to a trauma center before they bleed out, knock yourself out. I'll be under there working on them while you build a fort.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for stabilization when neccessary. I teach it. But I'm also all for not wasting time on things that are completely unneccessary just because it looks cool.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 10:55 PM.
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    Mickey,where/how do YOU THINK that vehicle is going to shift?

    And on WHAT do you base your conclusions?

    What steps would you take with equipment YOU have available to prevent this? T.C.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 10:56 PM.

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    Well I DO agree with a couple of the other posters. What WAS a perfectly good truck is WRONG side down. So yeah,there IS something WRONG with this picture.But keep the ideas coming. T.C.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 10:56 PM.

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    Only two pics I have. IMHO opinion, what's wrong is that the vehicle hasn't been stabilized. Two minutes to put up some sort of cribbing, max.

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    Hi

    I am very surprised with some of the points being made here. How can you state there is absolutely no risk of vehicle movement??

    Get them to the trauma centre as you say, only 2mm of movement to the casualty can cause paralysis, stabilise and create space.

    Yes we can say you never know, because we don't know.

    Is the vehicle stable, yes we can say the weight of the engine and the slope may hold it firm, but after such a crash how do we know what structural damage has been done.
    Extrication basics, always stabilise the vehicle.

    What if they needed to carry out some space creation, the rescue would be delayed whilst the stability is being done.

    Why is no one wearing correct PPE, we wonder why there are so many rescuer injuries etc.

    I would assume that the occupant would have a c-spine injury, so why no space creation, again extrication basics.


    Lets not get lazy get the basics done, stable or not get it stabilised, be prepared for any eventuality.

    Sorry if my post is to the point.

    cheers

    John
    Last edited by jonnycutter; 06-15-2010 at 04:09 PM.

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    Because unless there is an earthquake or a volcano, it is stable. Big truck, resting on roof and hood, on solid ground. What more do you want, helicopters to hold it in place in case of a landslide???

    It is stable. MAYBE, the guys working the scene checked it and decided it was perfectly stable enough.

    Training and experience makes us know things. And based on my training and experience, looking at nothing more than these two pictures, I know that truck is stable and I know the guys working the scene are probably know its safe because they are there.

    Always make sure the vehicle is stable. Often, it is perfectly stable without you messing with it even more. Sometimes it needs more stabilization, sometimes it doesn't. In this case, I beleive it doesn't and apparently the guys working the scene also believe that.

    Even if they put a bunch of cribbing under it, they would have to modify it and rework it for space creation anyway. No difference.

    I see one person not in proper PPE. However I don't know what that one person's role is so I'm not going to assume...

    We don't cut up vehicles for fun. We cut them up as needed to get a job done. I'm sure if they needed to make more room, they would do so.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:01 PM.
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    Nmfire
    I am sorry if I have caused some upset, that was not meant to be the case, I may not have written my post as well as it could have been.

    Forums have a bad habit of the information being missinturpreted at times.

    I was only giving my thoughts on the original post. You are quite right it's easy to comment when you are not there. I was not and if I where I would still do things differently. I aS not meaning to disrepect the rescuers in the picture.
    I was surprised at some of the rude comments aimed at me, I do know the subject. Perhaps we just have different ideas?

    I enjoy this forum but do not expect to receive such a hammering on a reply to a previouse post.

    I am sure the crews did a very good job.
    I hope no hard feelings

    john

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    Jonny,methodology varies WIDELY from one area to another all over the world. What is RIGHT for one agency may be totally WRONG for another. I've done probably a dozen or more of these vehicles over the last 5 or so years. I KNOW the vehicle,I KNOW the crush points,I'm playing my gut on ground conditions but I KNOW this truck is going NOWHERE(without help). This is based on physics AND EXPERIENCE. Would I utilize a pair of struts? If it were my job,YES. But NO ONE in the picture is going to get hurt if they DON'T,in THIS scenerio. Still looking for more pics or input. T.C.

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    nmfire

    I agree and i retract any comment made as to the skill of the crew, and my post has been changed accordingly.

    I like you am only looking at the pictures from my pc so perhaps we both are not in the best place to comment?

    We all have different ideas about what we would do.

    I have been a bit hasty with my original wording and not given some of the comments as much thought as they deserved. And i have given myself a slap

    But if i was OIC for the incident i would not be happy,

    We go on about PPE and other procedures, and the phases of an extrication, i see none of them here.

    i respect your experience with this type of incident, however with this type of incident i would put money on some type of spinal injury, so space creation would be needed, so that leads me to stability to enable this to happen.

    Are you saying you would be happy to man handle the casualty out of this situation with a possible spinal injury without space creation?

    Personnel in the hot zone / inner cordon with no Gloves Helmets etc, do you see what i mean, don't shoot me but we will naturally have different protocols for our own fire dept, we should learn from each other and not let these debates get into a slagging match.

    Yes i hope we can put my original post down to a badly thought out post. Apart from my bad comments (now erased) i know the subject and will stand by the points i have raised.

    I never meant to pxss any one off, or give myself a bad reputation, for that i apologies.

    John

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    I don't understand where you keep coming up with this set in stone need for "space creation". If the patient isn't pinned and is not in an awkward position, no you don't need "space creation" and no you don't need to "man handle" the patient out either.

    Once again, if the crew needs to make room or cut holes, I'm sure they will do that. This 1/400th of a second look at a small part of the scene with no information about what happened, who has responded, who is responding, and what their plan is does not give you any ability to judge them. You don't know enough to say they aren't doing the right thing or should be doing it differently. Hell for all you know, the patient got ejected and they're just getting the registration for the police. Or maybe the rescue isn't on scene with equipment yet. Or or or or or I can go on with or's forever because the details aren't there.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:04 PM.
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    Jonny,Why do YOU think there is spinal injury?

    As I mentioned,I've done quite a few of these and with the exception of unbelted occupants,EVERY one I have attended has been a signoff and they WALKED away.

    At least here in the States the modern construction combined with the restraint systems lets one survive SERIOUS events with little or NO injury.

    Space usually consists of the back window or whichever door opens easier. If there is spinal compromise,treat accordingly. If not,why overcomplicate things? T.C.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-23-2010 at 11:04 PM.

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    And the ONLY people I see WITHOUT PPE is the USUAL. Cops and Bus attendants. AND their Protocol varies considerably from ours. T.C.

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    Ok i see where you are both coming from.

    No i am not at the incident, i am just commenting on the pictures, and yes there may be no one in the vehicle, and yes the picture gives very little information.

    I thought the pictures and the post where there because there was someone in the vehicle.

    The vehicle has been in a roll over, which in most cases would lead you to assume a c-spine injury.

    If there is so little information why are you assuming the vehicle is 100% stable and that their are no injuries.

    I thought the idea was to debate the information and look at learning points to better our skills. If i am so wrong then why even bother to post these pictures. No of us know exactly what has happened

    If the patient has no complaints and is able to get out then fine by me. I agree keep it simple and safe.

    There doesn't have to be actual entrapment to warrant space creation, what about entrapment by virtue of their injuries?

    If all you want to do is vent anger at me then fine but if we can not have a constructive open minded discussion, then i suggest we end it and move on to happier posts.

    As i said i am only replying to the original post, with a lot of assuming, why doesn't whoever posted the pictures get the facts and let us know, u guys are guessing the same as me.

    With regard to vehicle restraints, if you do the research you will see that they are actually responsible for a lot of post accident injuries and fatalities, that go un-reported. Airbags do not prevent whiplash and other spinal injuries. Come on lets keep this operational and not personnel

    We are all assuming, what ifs by the pictures, so lets not get at each other

    John

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