Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 103
  1. #21
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,158

    Default

    We've been spec'ing manual pump overrides on our rigs since at least 1992. All 20 front-line engines (Pierce Quantums with Waterous pumps) and 5 reserves (again, Quantums with Waterous) have them. Ability to manually override the pump engagement is a portion of the department's driver/pump-operator school.

    Our pumpers are wired to allow the in-cab accelerator to still control the throttle of the pump, which came in handy in about 2003 when the first arriving engine on a working fire found that the pressure governor on the pump panel would not increase the throttle. The department's chaplain was on the scene, so he was put in the cab and told to hold the accelerator at 1350rpm (which equals 150PSI +/- on our rigs) which he did until later arriving engines were established to pump through the first-due engine. Quick thinking by the DPO.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!


  2. #22
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    SpecCapt made a good post concerning the manual engagement cable and pump gear operation. Until we annexed a volley dept., we never had a Pierce rig, much less 2 of them, until then.

    After the annexation of the two Pierces, did we get repair requests of them having problems going into pump mode. The main air shift worked, but they had to complete the movement into pump gear by pushing in the T-handle for the manual engagement. Once I replaced the cable for them, the issue was taken care of.

    As for the hand throttle controls, we have 2 of them. One at the pump panel, and one on the dash board. If the pump panel one takes a dump, then they can use the dash mounted one. As soon as you're in pump mode, the foot feed is disabled. Both the D60's and ISM's have a three wire connector on them.

    I do need to make a correction. We do have 2 rigs with Hale pumps that do not have a manual over ride. I found this out while putting in service 2 new rigs, that would put the 2 Hale pumps in reserve status today. Both are 1994 twins.

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa
    I've never had a need for a backup/manual pump shift. Use the Jake brake on EVERY drive.
    And you wonder why I call you the "Idiot Out Wandering Around".

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  3. #23
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,604

    Default

    Who covers Carter Lake, anyway?

  4. #24
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    I've never had a need for a backup/manual pump shift. Use the Jake brake on EVERY drive.
    What does the Jake have to do with a manual pump shift and backup throttle controls?

  5. #25
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    1,294

    Default

    I would like to know a few more details of the Seattle Engine in question.

    Is it possible that it had a PTO driven pump? Those can be rated up to about 1,250 GPM if I recall correctly.

    If it was a PTO on an Allison World tranny, it had to have a hot shift PTO, as those are flywheel driven, not turbine driven. If those don't receive adequate hydraulic pressure and flow from the tranny, they won't shift properly.

    If it was a midship design, then was the shifter pneumatic, electric, or manual? Was it a Hale, Waterous, or Darley? Hale uses straight cut gears. I assume they do this because straight cut gears are easier to engage than angle cut or helical cut gears. The downside is that straight cut gears are noisy, producing a "whine" that is distinctive. Although it's irrelevant when you're standing next to a 450 HP diesel running at 1,300 RPM.

    The pneumatic shifters on modern midship pumps are super reliable. In 20+ years I have yet to see one fail, although I have no doubt that they occasionally do. They are as reliable as the service brakes. Occasionally, we hear tales where service brakes fail. Is that cause to require every Fire Truck in North American to have an backup manually-powered service braking system? (notice I said service brake, not parking brake)

    A few of our American LaChance chassis have pneumatic shifters, but the control valve is electrically operated. This is a terrible design as an electrical failure in the switch prevents pump shift from occurring.

    Several other trucks in our inventory have had governor problems. Sometimes the circuit indicating the pump is in gear fails, preventing the governor from generating a throttle signal. In some trucks the throttle pedal remains active allowing the operator to increase throttle by laying two hydrant wrenches on top, and moving them farther forward or backward to change the pressure on the pedal. Many other trucks ignore throttle signals from the pedal when in pump mode. There appears to be no standard among builders on this issue. Other times the pressure transducer fails, but an operator can still switch to RPM mode to pump.

    Hearing about the failure on one truck on the opposite side of this continent is not sufficient evidence to convince me that requiring every midship pumper in North America to have a manual shift override is a good idea. Deciding that your truck will have one is great. Making that decision for everyone else might not be.

    My Dept has about 40 Hale pumps, and only two Waterous. All have air shifters. Recently, our Garage started removing the manual override shifters because a few were binding and preventing the pump from shifting properly. While I don't agree with that solution, it has yet to be a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Car651 View Post
    What does the Jake have to do with a manual pump shift and backup throttle controls?
    The comparison was made earlier in the discussion.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

  6. #26
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11
    Who covers Carter Lake, anyway?
    Carter Lake has a Volley Dept. with about 25 people. We have 2 stations that do MA with them that are both less than 2 miles away.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  7. #27
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,604

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Carter Lake has a Volley Dept. with about 25 people. We have 2 stations that do MA with them that are both less than 2 miles away.

    FM1
    Thanks. Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but something you said got me wondering.

  8. #28
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    1984 Pierce ....now retired ...had one ............
    1998 E-one on a Freightshaker Commercial Chassis no.................had an episode at a Structure fire and could not get it into pump via the Auto Tranny.....guess what ? NO OVERRIDE ! .............it did go and get one put on.
    2009 KME .......spec'ed it into the rig.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  9. #29
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    So of Can. / N. of Mexico
    Posts
    865

    Default Manual Pump Over Ride

    Every Hale pump with a split shaft gear box has the capability of being manualy shifted. There is a shaft that protrudes from the pump shift air cylinder on the front side of the pump gear box that has a round hole in the shaft that a screw driver can be put into and the pump shift can be manually shifted. First the dash mounted shift lever has to be put in the neutral position to vent air off of both sides of the air shift cylinder and then someone has to slide under the truck to manually shift the pump shaft. This is not the greatest set up but it's there. Many rigs have an option of a cable or manual push pull rod at the lower side of the pump panel. But all Hale Split shafts can be manually shifted after the air is vented from the system with the manual pump shift air valve on the dash.

  10. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,775

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    Every Hale pump with a split shaft gear box has the capability of being manualy shifted. There is a shaft that protrudes from the pump shift air cylinder on the front side of the pump gear box that has a round hole in the shaft that a screw driver can be put into and the pump shift can be manually shifted. First the dash mounted shift lever has to be put in the neutral position to vent air off of both sides of the air shift cylinder and then someone has to slide under the truck to manually shift the pump shaft. This is not the greatest set up but it's there. Many rigs have an option of a cable or manual push pull rod at the lower side of the pump panel. But all Hale Split shafts can be manually shifted after the air is vented from the system with the manual pump shift air valve on the dash.
    OK this explains the one pumper I worked from that required climbing underneath to engage. It was a Hale pump in a Ford cabover built by Continental I believe.

  11. #31
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    441

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Car651 View Post
    What does the Jake have to do with a manual pump shift and backup throttle controls?
    Read the thread. A couple goofballs suggest a aux. manual pump shift is more useful than an aux. brake (NFPA mandated). Now that's just silly.

  12. #32
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10
    Read the thread. A couple goofballs suggest a aux. manual pump shift is more useful than an aux. brake (NFPA mandated). Now that's just silly.
    This "goofball" didn't say anything of the sort, nor implied it. And I'm sure the other "goofball", didn't either.

    What I did say, was that I was disgusted that an aux. manual pump shift hasn't been mandated by the NFPA, as they have mandated the secondary braking. In no way, did I say that one was more important or useful, than the other. Both should be "required" by the NFPA.

    If you want to be the class clown, fine. But don't take my comments out of context.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  13. #33
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Well FM, i was one of "those goofballs" that you suggest i go somewhere else. You're right i did not imply one was more important than the other.

    I'm surprised that nfpa hasnt addressed the issue not of pump shift over rides, but of ff's working on top of apparatus without railings, harnesses, etc. Im not saying i advocate those, but saying with numerous other seemingly minuscule things being worked over in 1901, the issue of fall hazards from the top of apparatus hasnt been addressed.

  14. #34
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffp20
    Well FM, i was one of "those goofballs" that you suggest i go somewhere else. You're right i did not imply one was more important than the other.

    I'm surprised that nfpa hasnt addressed the issue not of pump shift over rides, but of ff's working on top of apparatus without railings, harnesses, etc. Im not saying i advocate those, but saying with numerous other seemingly minuscule things being worked over in 1901, the issue of fall hazards from the top of apparatus hasnt been addressed.
    And I will stand by my post, concerning you to go else where (note, it was pointed at YOU, only). I also didn't call you a "goofball". If I was to call you anything, it would be "Safety Sally".

    Why stop with the railings on the rigs, so you don't fall off. How about installing harnesses in the shower so you don't slip when you shower at the station. How about me, when I am walking on top the rig??? Scratch that, I know where the edge is.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  15. #35
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    441

    Default

    When you get home kick the dog and then untwist your shorts. You'll be good to go.

  16. #36
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10
    When you get home kick the dog and then untwist your shorts. You'll be good to go.
    That's the best you can do??? Don't answer, you've already smeared this thread, just as the ladder thread.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  17. #37
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,775

    Default

    Interestingly, tonight we drilled some crews on pumps and asked about the manual pump override. Most were "pretty sure" they knew how, but were not certain. Sadly, in an effort to be absolute we decided to meet in the training room and show the documents from the various pumpers manuals. Only we found we were missing two. Now we're hunting down actual hard copies. I did find the manual override for our one Hale pump, but it's not so much a manual override option as with the others, in that you can do it, but the recommend shutting the engine down as you must climb underneath and insert a center punch or screwdriver and manually move the operating mechanism to change the road to pump or vice versa. The Waterous are outside handles which I believe require the air pump switch and transmission be put into neutral, pull the handle then shift the transmission. But alas, I await discovering the hard copy before reiterating this point. Again, our assumption that people know these things could have led to a future issue. At least we will have learned a lesson from the Seattle topic.

  18. #38
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    165

    Default

    rfd, what you described was my original point and i assumed the same as you, that the average, non pump mechanic type, knew how to properly use the pump shift over ride when the crap hit the fan. Most didnt and its a training issue. Proper labeling would help i guess to give the operator directions on how to activate, just like the label telling how to put the pump in gear.

  19. #39
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sirhcdeer1 View Post
    Some of you may have heard of the 5-fatality apartment fire in Seattle's Fremont neighborhood last Saturday, and that the first-in engine couldn't pump water.

    It was reported that the engine wouldn't transfer from road to pump gear.

    Now the department is investigating what went wrong with that apparatus (a mid-90's E-One).

    Turns out that this rig--and all of Seattle's engines--don't have a manual pump shift override lever.

    Now, the victims in this fire didn't stand a chance anyways--not matter if the rig had pump correctly, because when this first engine arrived on-location, smoke and flames were pouring from every opening of this structure.

    However the mention that this engine wouldn't go into pump gear, and that their (the SFD's) entire fleet of engines don't have manual pump shift override features, really astonished me.

    In another forum, I was told by a couple of firefighters that these features are UNCOMMON in most fire engines. With that, I call major BS on this.

    Almost every rig I've pumped on/operated had this feature. Every E-One, KME and Pierce had this feature. The only two rigs that didn't--were Darley's.

    So, I ask all of you: Do you have manual pump shift overrides on your apparatus?
    Not the newest ones. Our older ones did. T.C.

  20. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,775

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffp20 View Post
    rfd, what you described was my original point and i assumed the same as you, that the average, non pump mechanic type, knew how to properly use the pump shift over ride when the crap hit the fan. Most didnt and its a training issue. Proper labeling would help i guess to give the operator directions on how to activate, just like the label telling how to put the pump in gear.
    I was surprised how hard it was to find the actual correct procedures as well. It appears that most of what those who thought they knew, were correct, but for one small point: the Waterous procedure states to push the manual operating rod in for PUMP which is not the case on one of ours. As I said, those of us who "knew" weren't certain enough to stand on the drill ground and tell everyone the correct procedure without looking it up. Interestingly, It appears that none of this procedure was included in the pump manual provided with either of our last two Waterous pumps as well.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 2000 GPM Pump overkill ?
    By Fire304 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 06-05-2011, 10:56 PM
  2. Pressure Correction
    By jt4a in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-12-2001, 08:52 PM
  3. Pumper run away
    By *LHS in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 07-17-2001, 03:10 PM
  4. RPM's & GPM's
    By Daron in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-03-2001, 01:33 AM
  5. RFP's
    By D Littrell in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-08-2000, 06:36 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts