1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11
    Who covers Carter Lake, anyway?
    Carter Lake has a Volley Dept. with about 25 people. We have 2 stations that do MA with them that are both less than 2 miles away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Carter Lake has a Volley Dept. with about 25 people. We have 2 stations that do MA with them that are both less than 2 miles away.

    FM1
    Thanks. Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but something you said got me wondering.

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    1984 Pierce ....now retired ...had one ............
    1998 E-one on a Freightshaker Commercial Chassis no.................had an episode at a Structure fire and could not get it into pump via the Auto Tranny.....guess what ? NO OVERRIDE ! .............it did go and get one put on.
    2009 KME .......spec'ed it into the rig.
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Default Manual Pump Over Ride

    Every Hale pump with a split shaft gear box has the capability of being manualy shifted. There is a shaft that protrudes from the pump shift air cylinder on the front side of the pump gear box that has a round hole in the shaft that a screw driver can be put into and the pump shift can be manually shifted. First the dash mounted shift lever has to be put in the neutral position to vent air off of both sides of the air shift cylinder and then someone has to slide under the truck to manually shift the pump shaft. This is not the greatest set up but it's there. Many rigs have an option of a cable or manual push pull rod at the lower side of the pump panel. But all Hale Split shafts can be manually shifted after the air is vented from the system with the manual pump shift air valve on the dash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    Every Hale pump with a split shaft gear box has the capability of being manualy shifted. There is a shaft that protrudes from the pump shift air cylinder on the front side of the pump gear box that has a round hole in the shaft that a screw driver can be put into and the pump shift can be manually shifted. First the dash mounted shift lever has to be put in the neutral position to vent air off of both sides of the air shift cylinder and then someone has to slide under the truck to manually shift the pump shaft. This is not the greatest set up but it's there. Many rigs have an option of a cable or manual push pull rod at the lower side of the pump panel. But all Hale Split shafts can be manually shifted after the air is vented from the system with the manual pump shift air valve on the dash.
    OK this explains the one pumper I worked from that required climbing underneath to engage. It was a Hale pump in a Ford cabover built by Continental I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Car651 View Post
    What does the Jake have to do with a manual pump shift and backup throttle controls?
    Read the thread. A couple goofballs suggest a aux. manual pump shift is more useful than an aux. brake (NFPA mandated). Now that's just silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10
    Read the thread. A couple goofballs suggest a aux. manual pump shift is more useful than an aux. brake (NFPA mandated). Now that's just silly.
    This "goofball" didn't say anything of the sort, nor implied it. And I'm sure the other "goofball", didn't either.

    What I did say, was that I was disgusted that an aux. manual pump shift hasn't been mandated by the NFPA, as they have mandated the secondary braking. In no way, did I say that one was more important or useful, than the other. Both should be "required" by the NFPA.

    If you want to be the class clown, fine. But don't take my comments out of context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Well FM, i was one of "those goofballs" that you suggest i go somewhere else. You're right i did not imply one was more important than the other.

    I'm surprised that nfpa hasnt addressed the issue not of pump shift over rides, but of ff's working on top of apparatus without railings, harnesses, etc. Im not saying i advocate those, but saying with numerous other seemingly minuscule things being worked over in 1901, the issue of fall hazards from the top of apparatus hasnt been addressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffp20
    Well FM, i was one of "those goofballs" that you suggest i go somewhere else. You're right i did not imply one was more important than the other.

    I'm surprised that nfpa hasnt addressed the issue not of pump shift over rides, but of ff's working on top of apparatus without railings, harnesses, etc. Im not saying i advocate those, but saying with numerous other seemingly minuscule things being worked over in 1901, the issue of fall hazards from the top of apparatus hasnt been addressed.
    And I will stand by my post, concerning you to go else where (note, it was pointed at YOU, only). I also didn't call you a "goofball". If I was to call you anything, it would be "Safety Sally".

    Why stop with the railings on the rigs, so you don't fall off. How about installing harnesses in the shower so you don't slip when you shower at the station. How about me, when I am walking on top the rig??? Scratch that, I know where the edge is.

    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    When you get home kick the dog and then untwist your shorts. You'll be good to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10
    When you get home kick the dog and then untwist your shorts. You'll be good to go.
    That's the best you can do??? Don't answer, you've already smeared this thread, just as the ladder thread.

    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Interestingly, tonight we drilled some crews on pumps and asked about the manual pump override. Most were "pretty sure" they knew how, but were not certain. Sadly, in an effort to be absolute we decided to meet in the training room and show the documents from the various pumpers manuals. Only we found we were missing two. Now we're hunting down actual hard copies. I did find the manual override for our one Hale pump, but it's not so much a manual override option as with the others, in that you can do it, but the recommend shutting the engine down as you must climb underneath and insert a center punch or screwdriver and manually move the operating mechanism to change the road to pump or vice versa. The Waterous are outside handles which I believe require the air pump switch and transmission be put into neutral, pull the handle then shift the transmission. But alas, I await discovering the hard copy before reiterating this point. Again, our assumption that people know these things could have led to a future issue. At least we will have learned a lesson from the Seattle topic.

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    rfd, what you described was my original point and i assumed the same as you, that the average, non pump mechanic type, knew how to properly use the pump shift over ride when the crap hit the fan. Most didnt and its a training issue. Proper labeling would help i guess to give the operator directions on how to activate, just like the label telling how to put the pump in gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirhcdeer1 View Post
    Some of you may have heard of the 5-fatality apartment fire in Seattle's Fremont neighborhood last Saturday, and that the first-in engine couldn't pump water.

    It was reported that the engine wouldn't transfer from road to pump gear.

    Now the department is investigating what went wrong with that apparatus (a mid-90's E-One).

    Turns out that this rig--and all of Seattle's engines--don't have a manual pump shift override lever.

    Now, the victims in this fire didn't stand a chance anyways--not matter if the rig had pump correctly, because when this first engine arrived on-location, smoke and flames were pouring from every opening of this structure.

    However the mention that this engine wouldn't go into pump gear, and that their (the SFD's) entire fleet of engines don't have manual pump shift override features, really astonished me.

    In another forum, I was told by a couple of firefighters that these features are UNCOMMON in most fire engines. With that, I call major BS on this.

    Almost every rig I've pumped on/operated had this feature. Every E-One, KME and Pierce had this feature. The only two rigs that didn't--were Darley's.

    So, I ask all of you: Do you have manual pump shift overrides on your apparatus?
    Not the newest ones. Our older ones did. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffp20 View Post
    rfd, what you described was my original point and i assumed the same as you, that the average, non pump mechanic type, knew how to properly use the pump shift over ride when the crap hit the fan. Most didnt and its a training issue. Proper labeling would help i guess to give the operator directions on how to activate, just like the label telling how to put the pump in gear.
    I was surprised how hard it was to find the actual correct procedures as well. It appears that most of what those who thought they knew, were correct, but for one small point: the Waterous procedure states to push the manual operating rod in for PUMP which is not the case on one of ours. As I said, those of us who "knew" weren't certain enough to stand on the drill ground and tell everyone the correct procedure without looking it up. Interestingly, It appears that none of this procedure was included in the pump manual provided with either of our last two Waterous pumps as well.

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    @ RFDACM02, if you need some manuals, let me know. I'll send them to you. Same to anyone else that needs or wants them, for the waterous pumps that have the manual pump shift.

    Since this incident, I've made it a personal point to check the manual overrides on rigs that have them. What I have found, is that the older rigs have an instruction plate above the T-handle to do it correctly. On some of them, there is no instruction plate. And the newer ones have another dash mounted safety covered switch, that needs to be engaged before you can pull/push the T-handle to make the pump gear change (with instructions).

    Because we do have rigs with the manual override, I sent the Seattle/Fremont incident to the Training Chief. We have set up for early next week exercises to see if the D/O's can do the manual override. Of course, I'll make it to where they can't, by normal operations, but can, by doing what they are "supposed" to do.

    @ffp20... I missed that post, but I do agree. Having the instructions on the pump panel, and training, is very much needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Can I get some verification here, the Firehouse article that appeared today said
    A faulty electronic pad caused a Seattle fire engine not to pump water out on a fatal Fremont fire
    That does not sound like a pump shift issue, it sounds like a Pres Gov issue. Just want to make sure we're arguing about the right thing guys.
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    Hey guys, this is my first post here, somone beat me to the punch, I want to know if anyone knows for sure that it was a failure to shift because today's article said it was electrical.

    As for manual over rides I've seen multiple trucks that have damaged their pump shifters or failed to shift because of manual over rides on the shifter. Here in the North East we use too much salt and calcium on the roads, this binds up the linkages in the manual over ride and that results in problems (we also see the same problem in pump speed cables). I can only think of a very few instances where we've seen a truck come in the shop for "failure to shift" that did not have a root cause of operator or maintenance (more like lack there of).

    Also, regarding the foot throttle in the cab with a pressure governor, the vast majority of trucks I work on are disabled while in pump. If I'm doing a service on a pumper with a governor and find the foot throttle active while in pump I write it up as a descrepancy, usually its a bad cut out relay that's causing the problem. Even older 90's generation trucks with DDEC 1's have this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire304 View Post
    Can I get some verification here, the Firehouse article that appeared today said That does not sound like a pump shift issue, it sounds like a Pres Gov issue. Just want to make sure we're arguing about the right thing guys.
    We definitely didn't know the cause, or even if it was a true factor, but a decent discussion ensued from which I learned the manual overrides not only weren't standard but in some places are not wanted. To take it one step further, by the end of next week I'm certain that all our operators will be familiar with the procedures of an override, "just in case".

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    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/422355_fire25.html

    To be real, and totally honest, I would have never thought that the cause of the failure was from the push button transmission selector. With over 70 rigs that have them here, I've never, ever seen a failure of the key pad. This will be duly noted for future info and reference.

    I do question the knee jerk reaction of replacing all the key pads on all apparatus's though. It is an electronic part that can fail at any time, for any reason. Just because you install a new one, doesn't mean that it is dependable, when you need it.

    I've got mixed emotions on this. I'm glad they found the problem. But I'm not happy with what they found as being the cause. I don't have a recipe to keep this from happening to our department, or anybody elses.

    My heart goes out to the guys on that engine, and the department.

    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    we have had a couple of very high use units loose their allison touch pad. The sheet with the letters and arrows wore through and the pads themselves were worn.

    All the manual pump shifts in the world wouldn't have helped the seattle situation eh?

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    Thanks for the link Mech,

    From the story Mech linked above:
    A transmission control keypad malfunction was what delayed Seattle firefighters at the Fremont blaze that killed five people earlier this month, Fire Chief Gregory Dean said Thursday.

    The keypad works the vehicle's transmission, which engages the water pump. Because that failed, firefighters couldn't use the engine's 500-gallon water tank.
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    Firemech: Your are spot on about changing all the key pads. Electronic devices have a failure curve (bath tub curve) that is quite high in the initial start-up period and then falls to a very low rate as the "bad apples" fail. Then the failure rate climbs at the end of the life cycle. All the key pads in service should have been through the initial start up period so should be in a low failure rate, unless there is an inherent flaw that has been identified that pushed these devices into the far right end of the curve. Arbitrary replacement without an in depth analysis of the rest of the devices is probably not a good idea.

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    I wonder if hitting the 'mode' button would have done anything or if they tried that. Having the shifter pad screw up is something I had not ever given thought to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/422355_fire25.html

    To be real, and totally honest, I would have never thought that the cause of the failure was from the push button transmission selector. With over 70 rigs that have them here, I've never, ever seen a failure of the key pad. This will be duly noted for future info and reference.

    I do question the knee jerk reaction of replacing all the key pads on all apparatus's though. It is an electronic part that can fail at any time, for any reason. Just because you install a new one, doesn't mean that it is dependable, when you need it.

    I've got mixed emotions on this. I'm glad they found the problem. But I'm not happy with what they found as being the cause. I don't have a recipe to keep this from happening to our department, or anybody elses.

    My heart goes out to the guys on that engine, and the department.

    FM1
    Exactly. It is a well known fact that product failures occur early in the life cycle, drop, and then as the equipment ages begin to rise. When failure rate are graphed out they look like an elongated U.

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