1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    Making this debate about booze in the firemans hall deflects from the original topic. I brought it up to illustrate how important public perception is.
    The public perception that firemen sit around the firehouse drinking is okay with you? It's okay to drink at your workplace? There's no deflection at all -- it's the same topic but you're objecting to a harmless misperception but endorsing one that's exponentially worse.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    these policies are based on federal regulations.
    And the federal regulations in 41 CFR 102-34 leave it up to each agency to define permitted uses so providing a single agency regulation (which, BTW, only applies to one specific agency location) doesn't do much to strengthen your overly broad claim. As it turns out, use of government vehicles for "comfort and health" purposes is not universally prohibited.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    I think if the people of Boston are so mad about the tax raise to pay for the pay raise, the fire department should just stop collecting tax revenue, and start charging for services rendered like contract EMS companys do. Wait till joe blow gets that 700 dollar bill for silencing that faulty fire alarm they respond to 3 to 4 times a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VincentEng2 View Post
    I think if the people of Boston are so mad about the tax raise to pay for the pay raise, the fire department should just stop collecting tax revenue, and start charging for services rendered like contract EMS companys do. Wait till joe blow gets that 700 dollar bill for silencing that faulty fire alarm they respond to 3 to 4 times a week.
    Actually, this in no different than the welfare bum who buys the 20 oz Pepsi for more than the cost of 64 oz bottle and a handful of Slim Jims with the benefit card. And I say it is no different in the respect that it is taxpayer money paying for both. There is one difference, public servants are professionals and need to think like them. Hence the need for ethics awareness.

    “Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do.”

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    If the members of a department, career or volunteer, know that the citizens have an issue with some of thier actions, and continue with those actions, knowing that they will likely tick off the public even more, they are idiots and deserve whatever they get as a result of not changing thier behaviors.

    Really doesn't matter if the department says it's ok. It also doesn't matter if the members of the department percieve it as the right thing to do. The members should be intelligent enough to change thier behaviors. If they aren't, the public support may not be there when it's needed, and the department and it's members have absolutly no right to cry, whine or complain about the lack of public support.

    Honestly, it's that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    The public perception that firemen sit around the firehouse drinking is okay with you? It's okay to drink at your workplace? There's no deflection at all -- it's the same topic but you're objecting to a harmless misperception but endorsing one that's exponentially worse.
    The volunteer fire department is a workplace.

    The volunteer fire department is also a social organization.

    There are members that volunteer primarily to fight fires. there are also members that fight fires but are there primarily foe the social aspect of the organization. In fact, in some departments, especially in rural areas, there are more of the latter insrtead of the former. Yes, they respond and train, but take away the social aspects and you will likely lose those members.

    And yes, a beer or two after drill is part of the social fabric of many departments. Sorry bout that, but that is part of what attratcs members to these departments. In many cases, these is also accepted by the community as the fire department is viewed as a social organization as well as a response organization.

    The fact is if the command structure isn't strong enough to say if you drink, there's a limit, and there's no going on runs, and they can't enforce that, there are probably far more problems within that department than a beer or two after drill.

  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The volunteer fire department is a workplace.

    The volunteer fire department is also a social organization.
    Forget all of the other stuff you wrote, your first sentence sums it up. It's a WORKPLACE. Do you come back to the station and have a beer after you do a pub-ed event as a compensated employee of the department? No? So why is it okay for the volunteers to do this?

    Why can't the members wait to have a cold one until they get home? The beer tastes better our of the department cooler? If you must have alcohol to have the social aspect of being a firefighter, than you're social committee has a long, long ways to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Forget all of the other stuff you wrote, your first sentence sums it up. It's a WORKPLACE. Do you come back to the station and have a beer after you do a pub-ed event as a compensated employee of the department? No? So why is it okay for the volunteers to do this?

    Why can't the members wait to have a cold one until they get home? The beer tastes better our of the department cooler? If you must have alcohol to have the social aspect of being a firefighter, than you're social committee has a long, long ways to go.


    Here here.

    Right on target.

    Drink your beer[s] at home and not at the fire house!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  9. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Forget all of the other stuff you wrote, your first sentence sums it up. It's a WORKPLACE. Do you come back to the station and have a beer after you do a pub-ed event as a compensated employee of the department? No? So why is it okay for the volunteers to do this?

    Why can't the members wait to have a cold one until they get home? The beer tastes better our of the department cooler? If you must have alcohol to have the social aspect of being a firefighter, than you're social committee has a long, long ways to go.
    Not true. In our area the fireman's hall has always been a social gathering place. Us and many other local departments have a 'hall' where people can gather for many things. Much like a grange or any other hall. Ours was built in the 70's and was designed to be both a fire department and a gathering place.

    We host high school reunion icebreakers, birthday parties, wedding party dinners, even memorial services. They are great fundraisers. Most events serve alchohol. Some don't. All in the same building as our firefighting equipment.

    We designate a crew of non-drinkers. We also have auto-aid agreements with neighboring departments for large incidents. We often send a crew and an engine to cover a neighboring station so that they can host an event.
    Last edited by Blulakr; 07-12-2010 at 03:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    The public perception that firemen sit around the firehouse drinking is okay with you? It's okay to drink at your workplace? There's no deflection at all -- it's the same topic but you're objecting to a harmless misperception but endorsing one that's exponentially worse.
    No, that perception is 'not ok with me'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    We host high school reunion icebreakers, birthday parties, wedding party dinners, even memorial services. They are great fundraisers. Most events serve alchohol. Some don't. All in the same building as our firefighting equipment.
    Wonderful, it's a good community thing. But that doesn't mean that the firefighters need to be drinking in the hall. Let the citizens do that.
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    What about washing your car with Beer in the firehouse???
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  13. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The volunteer fire department is a workplace.

    The volunteer fire department is also a social organization.
    And the volunteer fire departments that don't recognize that the workplace comes first will always be second rate, amateur organizations.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There are members that volunteer primarily to fight fires. there are also members that fight fires but are there primarily foe the social aspect of the organization. In fact, in some departments, especially in rural areas, there are more of the latter insrtead of the former. Yes, they respond and train, but take away the social aspects and you will likely lose those members.
    Someday, they'll figure out that losing those members is a benefit to the organization. If people want to belong to a social club, they need to join the FD Ladies Auxilliary and leave the FD to the firefighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And yes, a beer or two after drill is part of the social fabric of many amateur departments.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is if the command structure isn't strong enough to say...
    If the command structure isn't strong enough to say, "This isn't a @#$%& social club. No alcohol in the firehouse or at fire department events," then the command structure is grossly deficient already.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    No, that perception is 'not ok with me'?
    I applaud you for rethinking this issue and, since you've identified yourself as an officer in your department, I look forward to reading about your progress in getting alcohol out of your firehouse.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Forget all of the other stuff you wrote, your first sentence sums it up. It's a WORKPLACE. Do you come back to the station and have a beer after you do a pub-ed event as a compensated employee of the department? No? So why is it okay for the volunteers to do this?

    Why can't the members wait to have a cold one until they get home? The beer tastes better our of the department cooler? If you must have alcohol to have the social aspect of being a firefighter, than you're social committee has a long, long ways to go.
    Because in one case you are being paid to be there, in the other you pay to be there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    And the volunteer fire departments that don't recognize that the workplace comes first will always be second rate, amateur organizations.
    And the volunteer organizations operate at 5% of the cost of the paid organizations. Local FD with a 7 man duty crew has an Annual Budget of $2.3 million. Our volunteer department has an annual budget of $130,000

    Makes you wonder who is getting the best bang for the buck.....

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