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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    Still apples and oranges.

    I will continue to wear the uniform proudly and honerably with or without your blessing.

    I will not disrespect my employer by abusing his\her\their resources.



    Making this debate about booze in the firemans hall deflects from the original topic. I brought it up to illustrate how important public perception is.



    One question - are you and scare crow the one and the same???

    Its sure sounds like it is by the "logic" you spew!!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    Namecalling and insults just degrade the debate and get us nowhere.

    I'm sure your department does things that work for you but would make us shake our heads in disbelief.
    1. Having no knowledge of my department, that's a pretty arrogant comment to make.

    2. Maybe I was a bit brash, maybe you caught me before I had my coffee this morning. But maybe you could find a better way to voice your opinions (which, you are entitled to) without coming off like you are trolling for trouble (which may make said opinions a bit more valued here).

    I'm still trying to figure out if you've been here before under another name, or if you truly are new here. I won't open that up for debate. There is no problem with a healthy debate, no problem with two minds agreeing to disagree. The fact that I have a longer duty week than you means nothing. You're overlooking my point. You're flaunting. Spend 24 hours (straight) in the firehouse and do nothing but work/fire/rescue/prevention related projects. Three times a week. If you are sincerely voicing your opinion, fine, but judging by the reactions here you may be coming off as pushing buttons. Just a tad. Be a valued voice here, not the button pusher. God knows we have enough of those here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    I didn't realize that washing your boat in the fire hall in Boston falls under the coverage of the National Institute of Health.

    Every link you post to justify your position comes form some random department or agency that has nothing to do with the argument at hand. I am just going to guess that your style of debate functions as follows.

    1) "What Troll argument can I make that might get the biggest response?"
    2) Google "Stupid Point that I am trying to make"
    3) Search through all the links until you find the one that backs up your argument. Ignoring all the links that don't work in your favor.
    4) Post link and scream "Look, I was right!"
    5) Sit back and watch the results of your trollery

    You apparently have trouble following along. Some clown called me out on the fact if you use a GSA car for travel that you can not use it for personal use. I showed him one policy that was easy to find, and these policies are based on federal regulations.

    Now try to keep up...

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    You apparently have trouble following along. Some clown called me out on the fact if you use a GSA car for travel that you can not use it for personal use. I showed him one policy that was easy to find, and these policies are based on federal regulations.

    Now try to keep up...
    Actually, you seem to have trouble keeping up with your own links. So here is your google-fest in the order you provided.

    You argued that Boston FD was wrong because

    1) The Navy, The Department of Defense, and the Army have rules about using government resources for personal activities on duty.

    2) NY state ethics law applies to all NY state agencies. (With providing no links to back that statement up, and ignoring the fact that Boston is not exactly in NY)

    3) Compared the situation in Boston to driving a GSA car according to National Institute of Health rules.

    Once again, Boston does not operate under the rules of the Navy, Army, DoD, the State of New York, The GSA, or the National Institute of Health.

    Obvious Troll is obvious.
    Last edited by MarcusKspn; 06-22-2010 at 02:10 PM.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Actually, you seem to have trouble keeping up with your own links. So here is your google-fest in the order you provided.

    You argued that Boston FD was wrong because

    1) The Navy, The Department of Defense, and the Army have rules about using government resources for personal activities on duty.

    2) NY state ethics law applies to all NY state agencies. (With providing no links to back that statement up, and ignoring the fact that Boston is not exactly in NY)

    3) Compared the situation in Boston to driving a GSA car according to National Institute of Health rules.

    Once again, Boston does not operate under the rules of the Navy, Army, DoD, the State of New York, The GSA, or the National Institute of Health.

    Obvious Troll is obvious.
    No, they are not covered by those laws and regulations. But I am sure there are similar laws in Massachusetts. As the lawyer stated that taught the ethics classes. If it can even give the perception of being unethical then don't do it. There is a huge difference between working for a private entity and a public entity. They both have their own unique set of perks. The bottom line is, you shouldn't be using government equipment for personal use; especially while on duty. I work in a state office and we don't use the copiers, the fax machines, the printers or the phones for personal use. That is not their intended purpose. Besides being against policy morals and ethics also prevent me from using any of this stuff for my personal business.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Besides being against policy morals and ethics also prevent me from using any of this stuff for my personal business.
    That's why I would never expect you to use the states electricity or broadband for your trolling here.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtg55 View Post
    1. Having no knowledge of my department, that's a pretty arrogant comment to make.

    2. Maybe I was a bit brash, maybe you caught me before I had my coffee this morning. But maybe you could find a better way to voice your opinions (which, you are entitled to) without coming off like you are trolling for trouble (which may make said opinions a bit more valued here).

    I'm still trying to figure out if you've been here before under another name, or if you truly are new here. I won't open that up for debate. There is no problem with a healthy debate, no problem with two minds agreeing to disagree. The fact that I have a longer duty week than you means nothing. You're overlooking my point. You're flaunting. Spend 24 hours (straight) in the firehouse and do nothing but work/fire/rescue/prevention related projects. Three times a week. If you are sincerely voicing your opinion, fine, but judging by the reactions here you may be coming off as pushing buttons. Just a tad. Be a valued voice here, not the button pusher. God knows we have enough of those here.
    It may appear as an arrogant comment although not meant to be. Nevertheless, likely true.

    Maybe you were a bit brash??? Ok I'll accept that I guess

    I have never posted under a different name nor have I come here to pick a fight. I don't believe I have disrespected anyone here. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, I'll accept that. With the current political climate, seeing any appearance of abuse of public resources makes my blood boil and I expressed that.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    It may appear as an arrogant comment although not meant to be. Nevertheless, likely true.

    Maybe you were a bit brash??? Ok I'll accept that I guess

    I have never posted under a different name nor have I come here to pick a fight. I don't believe I have disrespected anyone here. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, I'll accept that. With the current political climate, seeing any appearance of abuse of public resources makes my blood boil and I expressed that.
    I can live with that. We will agree to disagree on what abuse of public resource entails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    That's why I would never expect you to use the states electricity or broadband for your trolling here.
    The state doesn't supply my electricity or broadband.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    You apparently have trouble following along. Some clown called me out on the fact if you use a GSA car for travel that you can not use it for personal use. I showed him one policy that was easy to find, and these policies are based on federal regulations.

    Now try to keep up...
    Your still here? I thought you got banned?

    Love the idiotic comparisons, btw.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The bottom line is, you shouldn't be using government equipment for personal use; especially while on duty. I work in a state office and we don't use the copiers, the fax machines, the printers or the phones for personal use. That is not their intended purpose. Besides being against policy morals and ethics also prevent me from using any of this stuff for my personal business.
    Never huh?

    Say it isn't so!!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    No, they are not covered by those laws and regulations. But I am sure there are similar laws in Massachusetts. As the lawyer stated that taught the ethics classes. If it can even give the perception of being unethical then don't do it. There is a huge difference between working for a private entity and a public entity. They both have their own unique set of perks.
    I'm glad to see you are FINALLY catching on and admit to this. Stop comparing the two. For every perk that we firefighters get, I can match it with private perk.

    The bottom line is, you shouldn't be using government equipment for personal use; especially while on duty.
    Where does it say the firefighter was using government equipment? And, according to BFD, it's acceptable as long as it does not interfere with the performance of their duties. It's not like they caught a structure fire and he said "you guys go on without me, I need to finish the boat"

    I work in a state office and we don't use the copiers, the fax machines, the printers or the phones for personal use. That is not their intended purpose.
    I'm throwing the bull$hit flag. We all know that NO ONE works in a state office, they all just sit around in a vegetative state of mind sucking up our tax dollars. How's that for perception?

    Besides being against policy morals and ethics also prevent me from using any of this stuff for my personal business.
    BINGO! Your company has a policy that prohibits this type of activity. BFD policy states using the empty bay is acceptable as long as permission is granted from the officer in charge (see original news article).
    The most important task on the fireground is the one YOU have!

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    Appreciate what you have and don't abuse it. Lose the entitlement mentality.

    Show some respect for those who pay your wages.
    Since I live in the district I work for, that makes me a resident/voting/taxpaying citizen. Since I pay taxes, I must be paying my salary. Since I'm paying my salary, I must be my employer (that would make me the boss). If I'm the boss, I can make the rules. I hereby rule that I can wash my car while on duty!

    That, my friend, would be "entitlement mentality", which I DO NOT have. Washing our vehicles at the station is a privilege. Privileges can be revoked for abuse and neglect of duty. No one washes their car every shift, once (maybe twice) a month.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    After meetings or drills usually a few of us will hang around and have a beer or 2 and socialize. It's not always the same people and we don't allow drunkenness.

    2 reasons why it is still allowed.

    It promotes comraderie and familiarity with fellow firefighters.

    There are few rewards for the time and effort we put in.
    Whoa! In all my years, I have been TOTALLY mistaken what fire service camaraderie is! In my opinion, hanging around having a few beers promotes alcoholism and having alcohol in the station is more detrimental to the fire service than washing personal cars in the station. The risks of having alcohol at the station far exceed the benefits.

    Suppose a frantic mother pulls into the parking lot screaming "my baby's in the car and she's not breathing!" I am more mentally and physically capable to perform life saving measures while washing my car than I would be "having a few beers".

    I would find other "rewards" for your "time and effort", they're not at the bottom of a beer can. Want to have a beer? Go home and do it.

    But it's your department, rule as you see fit.
    The most important task on the fireground is the one YOU have!

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrnkB8 View Post


    Whoa! In all my years, I have been TOTALLY mistaken what fire service camaraderie is! In my opinion, hanging around having a few beers promotes alcoholism and having alcohol in the station is more detrimental to the fire service than washing personal cars in the station. The risks of having alcohol at the station far exceed the benefits.

    Suppose a frantic mother pulls into the parking lot screaming "my baby's in the car and she's not breathing!" I am more mentally and physically capable to perform life saving measures while washing my car than I would be "having a few beers".

    I would find other "rewards" for your "time and effort", they're not at the bottom of a beer can. Want to have a beer? Go home and do it.
    I don't disagree. As I previously stated, after reading the posts here I am re-thinking my position on alchohol in the firehouse. I haven't necessarily advocated it, I've just given my understanding of why it's there. If it weren't there it wouldn't change a thing for me or most others there. We wouldn't drink any more or less, just somewhere else.

    Booze was there long before I joined and from what I understand used to be much more of a problem. I never gave it much thought until I overheard a citizen's comment about it. Now we are much more aware of the public perception and use better judgement. We are moving in the right direction.

    We have had people join and after a short while we could tell that they were 'only there for the beer'. They didn't last long. A few of our neighboring departments have gone to a no-achohol policy and we likely will at some point as well.

    Are you moving in the right direction as far as using public resources for personal gain??

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    If you were injured while washing your POV in the firehouse your departments insurance carrier would have a good case for non-payment. My guess is that the injury report would not mention the POV part. Even worse, If for some reason you damaged property or injured someone else while doing this what would your personal liability be?? Personal gain = personal liability.

    Public resources are not only the hose, suds and water but also include human resources, that's you.

    I understand why it happens, it's tough to fill 24 hrs with fire service stuff. But you can't justify it.

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    Even volunteers get cracks like on the first page "Nice to see my tax dollars at work". We'd be at the station adding better wiring to a brush rig or wiring a member's POV for lights and sirens(he's a Captain and the last guy you'd accuse of whackery)and there'd be someone calling the TV station to kvetch about us working on our cars at the station.
    There probably are people around the Paducah area that haven't gotten the word that the city department is paid and staffed 24/7 while out in the county,the departments are volunteer and unpaid except for a gas stipend.
    My Chief loved having us hang around the station because it cut response time.At a county wide meeting,it was once mentioned that our department had immediate rsponse to the tones more than the other departments just from some guy sitting around washing his car,looking over the rigs to stay familiar with the contents or just watching tv and being there to answer the radio or phone when a citizen had a question about why for the flowing hydrants or which station does the baby seat installations.
    Though no longer on a department, when I see people at the grocery griping about firefighters buying their meals or sitting outside the station,I try to explain that they've been working and deserve a break,just as they do at their jobs.It doesn't always get through their heads but at least I rarely degenerate into an argument with the pinheads that populate my fair city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    If you were injured while washing your POV in the firehouse your departments insurance carrier would have a good case for non-payment. My guess is that the injury report would not mention the POV part. Even worse, If for some reason you damaged property or injured someone else while doing this what would your personal liability be?? Personal gain = personal liability.

    Public resources are not only the hose, suds and water but also include human resources, that's you.

    I understand why it happens, it's tough to fill 24 hrs with fire service stuff. But you can't justify it.
    Wow, this just jogged a memory of something that happened to me back when I was a probie. It was a Saturday shift and I had my POV on the rear station apron washing it. A big gust of wind came up and dislodged this old steel gutter from the second floor of the station and down it came, crashing in to my cab. I actually could have been killed if it had been a foot either way. Anyway, it caved in my cab and smashed my windshield. Repair estimate was $2500. Perhaps naively I expected the city to pay for it since it was something on the station that damaged my truck. Eh, no. City Hall claimed that my truck shouldn't have been parked on the apron to begin with, that it had no business being there. If it had been out in the parking lot where it belonged it wouldn't have been damaged. We argued back and forth for about a week and they finally decided to pay for repairs. At the same time they issued me a check they also directed the fire chief to ban all washing of POVs. It was a "roykirk" policy and it made me quite popular. Fortunately cooler heads prevailed after about a year and the policy was conveniently forgotten about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The state doesn't supply my electricity or broadband.
    You have never posted to this forum from your work computer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    You have never posted to this forum from your work computer?
    Yes I have, The state does not own my work computer and I can connect to the free WIFI in downtown Albany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roykirk1989 View Post
    Wow, this just jogged a memory of something that happened to me back when I was a probie. It was a Saturday shift and I had my POV on the rear station apron washing it. A big gust of wind came up and dislodged this old steel gutter from the second floor of the station and down it came, crashing in to my cab. I actually could have been killed if it had been a foot either way. Anyway, it caved in my cab and smashed my windshield. Repair estimate was $2500. Perhaps naively I expected the city to pay for it since it was something on the station that damaged my truck. Eh, no. City Hall claimed that my truck shouldn't have been parked on the apron to begin with, that it had no business being there. If it had been out in the parking lot where it belonged it wouldn't have been damaged. We argued back and forth for about a week and they finally decided to pay for repairs. At the same time they issued me a check they also directed the fire chief to ban all washing of POVs. It was a "roykirk" policy and it made me quite popular. Fortunately cooler heads prevailed after about a year and the policy was conveniently forgotten about.
    Maybe you should have done more building maintanance and less personal stuff??

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    Maybe you should have done more building maintanance and less personal stuff??
    Have another Beer there buddy!
    Stay Safe
    Bull


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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    Maybe you should have done more building maintanance and less personal stuff??
    Are you for real?

    In most career departments, building maintenance is handled by Facilties Management, who take care of all of the building maintencnae. Would you ask the priincipal of the local elementary school to fix a leak on the roof, or the town manager to fix a leaky toilet?

    The extent of a career firefighter's building maintenance should be to sweep and wash down the apparatus floor, wash and wax the floors in the living quarters and office areas, clean the bathroom/locker areas, polish the brass and clean the windows and change lightbulbs. We do it out of tradition.

    You don't see the teachers, the cops or the town and city hall employees doing that... they have custodial staff.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yes I have, The state does not own my work computer and I can connect to the free WIFI in downtown Albany.
    Who owns your work computer and who pays for the electricity of said work computer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Who owns your work computer and who pays for the electricity of said work computer?
    Symantec owns the laptop, the electricity is a moot point. The laptop is needed to investigate malicious sites. We also have desktops supplied by the state that aren't used for much of anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    the electricity is a moot point.
    So is the Water and soap. . . . . . . .
    Stay Safe
    Bull


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