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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    We are a volunteer department.
    Yeah, I meant to say some departments. It was too early when I wrote that.


  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Maybe it is just my warped way of thinking....

    While the Engine officer does in fact "order" which line to be pulled, I have TRAINED and DRILLED enough with my Engine Officer that as the nozzleman, I can anticipate what line he is going to want and be stretching it before he has to tell me to do it. Isn't that what is expected of us as firefighters?

    Any company that trains and drills enough should be able to pull that off. The officer is still "ordering" the line, however his firefighters should very well know what to pull before ever arriving on scene.

    As for stretching to the wrong location, really? See above.
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    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  3. #23
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    I'm from a volunteer department as well. The majority of the time, its the command officer who's already on scene or the fire officer that makes the decision which line to pull and where to extend it.
    A small percentage of the time, when there's no company officer available, the driver/pump operator (a command officer at my department), will make the call.

    Nozzlemen don't make the call at my department.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    It would be great if we had an officer on the first due engine.

    With a volunteer company it's not always possible and by the IC ordering it, everyone is on the same page and there are no problems.
    We're volunteer and we've probably shared some of the same experiences you have.

    IF there is not an officer on the engine, then the most experienced FF will take the "officer's" seat and be in charge. IF there is/are an officer(s) on the engine, the most senior will take the seat.

    IF a chief has not went directly to the scene, then the person in the "officer's" is in charge and will choose the type of attack and line placement. IF a chief is on scene, he'll relay his orders to the person in the seat.

  5. #25
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    In our volunteer district it's the incident commander's job to direct initial attack. Example, "engine 8511, stage at xxx and perform initial interior attack from side A using 2 1\2 rear preconnect" As more resources arrive the command of individual tactics will be deligated to engine companies.

    Now if another operation such as primary search or ventilation is required before initial fire attack then the IC may be beyond his\her scope and should delegate specific fire attack tactics to engine company officers.

  6. #26
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    On my career FD the first line pulled is generally a 1 3/4 crosslay, if appropriate of course. We have multiple options that include an apartment line type set up, 2 1/2 preconnect and a 2 1/2 inch deadlay bed.

    Generally the line choice is either ordered for by the officer, or because he has worked with a firefighter long enough, the firefighter makes the choice. I have had situations where I have looked at the officer and said "Hey Boss! Want the duece and a half?" and let him make the decision on those iffy ones.


    It is a whole lot easier on my volly FD. Since we only use 2 inch hand lines that flow from 160 to 300 gpm it is impossible to pull the wrong size line. The only decision to make is 200' or 300' preconnect or the apartment line. If we need more than 300 gpm we can pull 3 inch hose with portable deluges or a pocket deluge.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  7. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber CKirk922's Avatar
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    It is all in training. We volunteer our time and skills to the FD, but we need to train to execute skills within the chain of command.

    We may be vollies or others may be career FFs, but the G*******D fire is still doing the exact same things to all of us.

    There is a generally accepted chain of command taught through FF I/FF II and the fire service as a whole. A common system if you will...We all need to be on the same page.

    This system was developed through a hard and terrible price of blood and ash by the forerunners of our profession.

    THE FIRST OFFICER DOES THE SIZE UP AND MAKES THE CALL... Vollie free lancing just breaks the chain of command and takes us away from the same page concept.

    FFing is a team occupation where individual members of the team must know thier role and the responsibilities attached to that specific role.

    Rant over... sorry for the inconvenience
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  8. #28
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    A lot of hoo haa about nothing. If the engine officer needs someone to tell him/her maybe they should step down. If the person assigned to the line needs someone to tell him/her they either need more practice or need to better supervised.
    PGFD

  9. #29
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    Absolutely. There's no need for a chief to micromanage and tell an engine officer to bring a line into a building and fight the fire.
    While I agree at some level, I wouldn't consider assigning tactical objectives to be micromanaging.

    Presumably the Chief officer has completed a 360 and has a better picture of the incident than the engine officer does. The engine officer is focused on a single crew; the IC is focussed on the whole incident.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  10. #30
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    Cool Fire Attack Line

    While the Engine officer does in fact "order" which line to be pulled, I have TRAINED and DRILLED enough with my Engine Officer that as the nozzleman, I can anticipate what line he is going to want and be stretching it before he has to tell me to do it. Isn't that what is expected of us as firefighters?
    This is similar to how I run our Truck/Quint Company..... We've trained and trained and trained..... I call-out on the headsets "Fire Attack" and the preconnects get pulled. My FFs know what our limits are as a Crew, if I want a larger line (2 1/2") then I call for the "deuce and a half Fire Attack."

    Of course, this is when the Engine Company has their heads in a dark place.....
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

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  11. #31
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    While I agree at some level, I wouldn't consider assigning tactical objectives to be micromanaging.

    Presumably the Chief officer has completed a 360 and has a better picture of the incident than the engine officer does. The engine officer is focused on a single crew; the IC is focussed on the whole incident.
    I'll agree with the first statement.


    As far as a 360, many areas by me have attached dwellings and a common ****loft. Like 5, or 8 or an entire block corner to corner. You drive around the block and all you see is the fronts of the other block.

    Also, many times an engine arrives before a chief so it's up to him to get his crew in motion and not wait. And while focused on a crew he has to anticipate how his first action will effect the incident. Sometimes in that row of attached you have to write off the fire building and get into the next exposure to cut the fire off before it runs 4 or 5 buildings.

  12. #32
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    The Engine Boss calls the shots, no matter the rank. If a crew has a good working relationship, then it goes without much consideration or conversation about what line to pull. But the Engine Boss is the guy/gal that ultimately determines which line to pull, where to go and how to function.

    The IC runs the entire operation and should only micromanage if someone is screwing up his scene. In the beginning, the Engine Boss may also be the IC, so he/she has all of the marbles and should be feared due to the shear authority they possess. I'm kidding just a bit of course. If you are wearing both hats, you are the busiest guy out there with all of the responsibility, tactics and operations. I want a hand off to occur sooner than later.

    If, in the opinion of the Relief IC, things are not as they should be, he should make adjustments as soon as he assumes command, then backs away from the micromanagement thing as soon as practical. Let the people do their jobs...

    The key point here is you can only control what happens in your little piece of the planet. If you are on a hose, your job is pretty much defined for you.

    If you are Engine Boss, you take care of your people and only direct the tactics within your part of the operation.

    If you are the IC, you control the world and who stands on it. But, this does not give you the right to get in the way or impede the crews in their mission.

    This is why a Chief's brain cost less than a Engine Boss brain.

    (I want to be an Engine Boss again.)
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=len1582;1183773]Definately...Even if the chief's there many times he won't say anything to the first due engine officer. There's no need for a chief to micromanage and tell an engine officer to bring a line into a building and fight the fire..

    I've been to plenty of fires where the stretching engine officer needed direction from a Chief. Thats not called micro managing its called being in charge

  14. #34
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    I've been to plenty of fires where the stretching engine officer needed direction from a Chief. Thats not called micro managing its called being in charge[/QUOTE]

    My first thought is that it sounds like a lack of training or experience to me. Most of the time around here, the engine officer is on the scene before any Chief and must make the call. Even if the Chief is there very little direction should be needed other than basic instructions (offensive, defensive, pull a 2 1/2 or take the line to the rear).

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    I've been to plenty of fires where the stretching engine officer needed direction from a Chief. Thats not called micro managing its called being in charge
    My first thought is that it sounds like a lack of training or experience to me. Most of the time around here, the engine officer is on the scene before any Chief and must make the call. Even if the Chief is there very little direction should be needed other than basic instructions (offensive, defensive, pull a 2 1/2 or take the line to the rear).[/QUOTE]

    I guess that's direction from a chief

  16. #36
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    My first thought is that it sounds like a lack of training or experience to me. Most of the time around here, the engine officer is on the scene before any Chief and must make the call. Even if the Chief is there very little direction should be needed other than basic instructions (offensive, defensive, pull a 2 1/2 or take the line to the rear).
    If the Chief isn't there to give direction... then why have em?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    If the Chief isn't there to give direction... then why have em?
    I guess it's a matter of how much "direction." My first read was that the chief was giving detailed instructions as opposed to directing the strategy. We may be in violent agreement.

  18. #38
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    I guess it's a matter of how much "direction." My first read was that the chief was giving detailed instructions as opposed to directing the strategy. We may be in violent agreement.
    How dare you!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  19. #39
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    I've been to plenty of fires where the stretching engine officer needed direction from a Chief. [Quote: DeltaCreek]


    I think you need a new engine boss.
    Last edited by THEENGINEGOES; 09-30-2010 at 08:59 AM. Reason: forgot to quote

  20. #40
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaCreek View Post
    I've been to plenty of fires where the stretching engine officer needed direction from a Chief. Thats not called micro managing its called being in charge
    I understand being in charge. If an officer needs guidance (newly promoted maybe) that's different from a chief giving orders for the sake of giving them. If you have a 2 or 3-story frame with fire out 2 windows on the second floor, it's pretty cut and dry you're bringing a line up there. No conversation needed.
    Last edited by len1582; 09-30-2010 at 01:24 PM.

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