Closed Thread
Page 2 of 2 First 12
  1. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    The senior member on scene will take the command and let the EMS folks assume patient care. I'd rather the highest licensed EMS provider be delivering IV's and meds, not directing the next unit where to park.
    Thats why we don't establish command on routine EMS runs. The medic does not be do anything but directing and providing patient care. If the run requires more resources, command will have been established. Of course my agency runs both fire and EMS with all career members being cross trained and licensed ALS providers. So we are the EMS folks as well as the firefighters, no need for separate anything regardless of what Scarecrow thinks..

  2. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    That's a common misconception.

    Command doesn't direct patient care. Command directs resources to accomplish that care.

    Yes, the highest license should have responsibility for the patient care (best accomplished by being with the patient, btw). But does the highest license have to determine how to redirect traffic, how many ambulances are needed, where to land the medevac, what resources are needed to contain the leaking fluids...etc...etc.

    Usually, paramedic resources are limited. So they need to be taking care of patients, not standing at the CP figuring out all the other things.
    You're preaching to the choir here. Our FD is a true Fire/EMS system providing ALS treatment and transport with all FTer's being cross trained personnel. No amount of arguing can convince our neighboring EMS agency that about ICS as they've existed in their vacuum for so long and not had any major issues. Why I don't know, it's just a matter of time though.

    Medics here are also scarce enough that we would rarely use one in any position other than direct single patient care. We basically have three EMS license levels and an EMT-I with a few years experience is often well versed enough to manage any of the ICS roles under the medical branch.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-14-2010 at 12:20 PM.

  3. #28
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    That's a common misconception.

    Command doesn't direct patient care. Command directs resources to accomplish that care.
    Bingo!

    In our state, the fire department has statutory authority whenever it's on scene. That doesn't mean that any fire officer worth his bugles would ever try to overrule a medic on issues of patient care but they might very well have to do things like keeping the medic out of a hot zone until it can be made safe or the patient removed to a safe area. What often gets forgotten in EMS incidents is that the patient isn't always the only problem nor always even the biggest problem but just one in a whole list of problems.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  4. #29
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    In our state, the fire department has statutory authority whenever it's on scene.
    That's always been what we've been told and have lived by, only to find that it's impossible to find the actual statute to back it. (not CT)

  5. #30
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    That's always been what we've been told and have lived by, only to find that it's impossible to find the actual statute to back it. (not CT)
    Well that's a cramp in the backside... It's CGS 7-313e for us, aka the "Godlike Powers" clause.

    It's not the sort of thing you'd ever want to abuse but it's good to know it's there in black and white. Back in the day there used to be occasional conflicts between CSP and fire departments on the interstates but I think they've figured out we're protecting their backs as well as our own when we close a road for an emergency.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  6. #31
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    There is ONE incident commander.
    Perhaps you should go back and review ICS.
    EMS is a branch under Operations.
    I don't believe I stated there was more than one incident commander. I can tell you that around here, at a large scale incident, there is a Unified Command Post, who's the IC is dictated by the type of incident. EMS uses ICS as well, its not unique to the fire service. I suppose if you are dealing with 1 ambulance with 2 medics, the concept is a bit silly, however when dealing with 10 ambulances and 4 or 5 command staff, the system works. EMS decides where to stage ambulances, dictates what hospitals will recieve what patients, mode of transport, sets up treatment and triage, etc...I have no idea why a single role fire department would do that for a single role EMS agency. My fire department does EMS, so there its obvious, however at my EMS job, it is 3 seperate agencies, hopefully working together, using the ICS with ALL shareholders. Makes sense, IMHO.

  7. #32
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bossteen View Post
    EMS decides where to stage ambulances, dictates what hospitals will recieve what patients, mode of transport, sets up treatment and triage, etc...I have no idea why a single role fire department would do that for a single role EMS agency. My fire department does EMS, so there its obvious, however at my EMS job, it is 3 seperate agencies, hopefully working together, using the ICS with ALL shareholders. Makes sense, IMHO.
    You don't understand what Command does.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  8. #33
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    You don't understand what Command does.
    yeah, that must be it...

  9. #34
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bossteen View Post
    EMS decides where to stage ambulances, dictates what hospitals will recieve what patients, mode of transport, sets up treatment and triage, etc...I have no idea why a single role fire department would do that for a single role EMS agency. My fire department does EMS, so there its obvious, however at my EMS job, it is 3 seperate agencies, hopefully working together, using the ICS with ALL shareholders. Makes sense, IMHO.
    I meant to edit my previous post with more content, so let me try again.

    If you think that Command must make the decisions you mentioned in your post then you don't understand how ICS works.

    A "single role" Fire Officer with a clear understanding of Incident Management can easily run a complicated mass casualty incident without every deciding the "mode of transport" and where TTT is located or managed.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  10. #35
    Forum Member
    len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Command is only established here when multiple pieces of FIRE equipment is dispatched on a single call.

    Any piece of fire equipment with an ambulance does not get command.

    Any single engine, truck, or rescue dispatch does not establish command.
    Same here. For us it's 3 companies then a Bn Chief goes. An engine and truck response for a car fire, it's the engine officers run. Truck call, then calls for an engine to assist, it's the truck officers run.

    Getting back to the EMS question. An MVA w/entrapment gets an engine, truck w/jaws, Rescue, Bn Chief. Chief will take command of fire units, but not get involved with EMS activity. Many times EMS will send a supervisor who is in charge of them. FD and EMS work very well together.

Closed Thread
Page 2 of 2 First 12

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. WOF Report: 11-09-06
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-10-2006, 09:43 AM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 02-05-06
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-10-2006, 07:48 AM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 11-21-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-22-2005, 09:07 PM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 07-16-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-17-2005, 07:44 PM
  5. World Of Fire Report: 02-20-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-24-2005, 12:43 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register