Estab Cmd on Med Calls

[dtruelove]

Historically, our department has established command on ALL calls - long before NIMS. We've had a few mgmt changes and there are some who do not believe we need to do that on EMS calls anymore, so they've stopped. I need to know if there is anything (other than NIMS) that specifically states command should be established on ALL calls including EMS. I don't have a policy to pull from (long story, past chief). Our dept does not provide transport, so we do work with another agency that provides transport. Curious to know how others handle command on EMS response.

[Theaxemancometh]

Historically, our department has established command on ALL calls - long before NIMS. We've had a few mgmt changes and there are some who do not believe we need to do that on EMS calls anymore, so they've stopped. I need to know if there is anything (other than NIMS) that specifically states command should be established on ALL calls including EMS. I don't have a policy to pull from (long story, past chief). Our dept does not provide transport, so we do work with another agency that provides transport. Curious to know how others handle command on EMS response.

Some 30 plus years ago, our department was involved in FIRESCOPE's original version of ICS, from which NIMS was adapted. Since the evolution of ICS, it has always been my department's belief that ICS/NIMS is a tool box; one in which you pull from ONLY when you need those particular tools. We've been providing pre-hopital care at the ALS level since the late 60's/early 70's. We aren't a transporting agency either, so a typical medical response is one BLS engine, one ALS squad with a private ambulance for transport. This yields, typically,up to six firefighters and two private ambulance personnel. As you know, span of control in ICS is 3-7 with an optimum ratio of one commander to 5 resources. So, with the normal manpower on scene being 7-8, there's always an engine captain on scene in charge and no need to announce who's in charge. It's an assumed thing.

Multi-casualty incidents are obviously different. We treat them different and will announce who's in command over the radio. So I guess we operate procedurally or in the spirit OF ICS, but unless that EMS call overwhelms the initial resources, feel there's no sense setting up a "phantom" organization on a very basic call. Hope that helps???

"The Axeman"

[dtruelove]

Perfect.....this is EXACTLY what I was asking for. Thank you!

[LaFireEducator]

Command announced at all EMS incidents.

As a rule, initial personnel on-scene are volunteers via POV. If the initial responder is a Captain or Senior Firefighter, they will establish command. if the intial responder is not a Captain or Senior Firefighter, they will wait until one of the 2 arrives.

[BoxAlarm187]

In my volunteer county, we established command on EMS calls simply because we don't have the call load for a lot of the guys to stay completely proficient in ICS. Therefore, if they're doing it for every call, it will come very naturally to them when the "big one" strikes.

At work, we typically don't establish command for every EMS call, only those that are unusual in nature.

[Eng34FF]

Similar to Axeman, we don't establish command over the radio for EMS calls. It is assumed that the EMT on the ambulance is in charge. Even if we have an ambulance and engine for manpower, no real need to call command over the radio.

[ChiefKN]

If there is one or two resources on an ems run, I don't think it's needed.

What I hate MOST is a nearby county establishes COMMAND and then the EMS folks establish EMS COMMAND at the same scene.

Stupid and will lead to problems.

[zzyyzx]

Like Axeman, we only establish command when needed (i.e. an MCI), and that's usually due to other circumstances such as rescue or HAZMAT. On a medical call involving difficulty breathing, or even just a minor fall, nothing officially is ever announced. Even on a cardiac arrest when we will have 6-8 FF/EMTs and 1 or 2 FF/Paramedics, we don't officially take command. The first medic on scene is in charge and they'll call the shots (one medic usually manages airway while the other pushes meds and watches the cardiac monitor).

I believe in NIMS 100 it states that NIMS is a bunch of modules that work together and can be activated if they are needed.

[nc1130]

At working incidents (fire or rescue) a Fire Officer will establish command. The EMS / Rescue Officer will take the "EMS / Rehab Sector Officer" at fires. On working Rescue Calls the EMS / Rescue Officer takes over "Operations".
If no EMS Rescue Officer is on the scene, the person in the front right seat of the first arriving ambulance assumes this roll until an officer gets there.

nc

[BLSboy]

If you want, give Ocean City (NJ) Fire Dept a call.
I worked with them (they do BLS prehospital treatment and transport, extrication, fire suppression, water rescue and inspections), while I worked for the hospital that provided ALS intercepts.
On every call that an Engine Co was on, Command was established, and it was VERY organized and well run.

Their phone # is (609) 525-9182

[hwoods]

We are an All Hazards Fire/Rescue/EMS agency, and the answer is Yes and No. Examples: "Sick Person" BLS Ambulance alone and "Trouble Breathing" BLS and ALS Ambulances respond. Command is not NORMALLY established. Auto Accident - BLS Ambulance, Engine Company, Maybe a Heavy Rescue also, Command is established..........

[dtruelove]

Thanks for your response, you've helped greatly!

[MemphisE34a]

Command is only established here when multiple pieces of FIRE equipment is dispatched on a single call.

Any piece of fire equipment with an ambulance does not get command.

Any single engine, truck, or rescue dispatch does not establish command.

[FiremanLyman]

NFPA 1710 6.2.1 - An incident management system shall be provided in accordance with NFPA 1561 to form the basic structure of all emergency operations of the fire department, regardless of the scale of the department or the emergency.

Do I think NFPA is the bible? No, but in this case it makes good sense.

We do establish command at every call, even if it is a lift assist or vehicle unlock. It is just a good practice to do, whether for consistency or if the situation escalates and you have to call additional resources.

Pain in the ***? Nah, it only takes an additional breath on the radio when you arrive and one more sentence in your NFIRS report to be doing the right thing.

[rm1524]

We establish command on all calls. We started off not establishing command on med calls and then it was noticed that it was being established on MVA's and grass fire. They changed it to all calls so there would be no confusion and no 'I forgot'.

[bossteen]

If there is one or two resources on an ems run, I don't think it's needed.

What I hate MOST is a nearby county establishes COMMAND and then the EMS folks establish EMS COMMAND at the same scene.

Stupid and will lead to problems.

How's that? If it is an EMS incident, then shouldn't EMS also establish command, as in unified command?

[BLSboy]

How's that? If it is an EMS incident, then shouldn't EMS also establish command, as in unified command?

There is ONE incident commander.
Perhaps you should go back and review ICS.
EMS is a branch under Operations.

[ChiefKN]

How's that? If it is an EMS incident, then shouldn't EMS also establish command, as in unified command?

It's not unified command.

There is "command" and then EMS establishes "EMS command".

No such animal.

However, with an EMS incident, there should be unified command as EMS has a very large stake in the operations. This would also depend on how the agencies are structured.

[ScareCrow57]

It's not unified command.

There is "command" and then EMS establishes "EMS command".

No such animal.

However, with an EMS incident, there should be unified command as EMS has a very large stake in the operations. This would also depend on how the agencies are structured.

Just curious here.

On a police matter the PD establishes command and directs FD, EMS, and others.

On a Fire Call the FD establishes command and directs PD, EMS, and others.

So why wouldn't an EMS establishes command and directs PD, FD, and others as needed?

Isn't the concept of unified command to mean there is one top commander and all others report to the top commander of the incident.

[BoxAlarm187]

Just curious here.

On a police matter the PD establishes command and directs FD, EMS, and others.

On a Fire Call the FD establishes command and directs PD, EMS, and others.

So why wouldn't an EMS establishes command and directs PD, FD, and others as needed?

Isn't the concept of unified command to mean there is one top commander and all others report to the top commander of the incident.

Generally, the EMS folks are dedicated to providing, and focusing on, their sole mission: the delivery of medical care. The FD, who typically responds with more people and gets there first, is in a better position to provide command & control while EMS provides patient care.