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  1. #21
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    On reported structure calls, the first due engine, quint ot whatever has the supply hose, should make a hydrant and layout. As I always have said, "Tis better lay a line and not to lay"!

    If I don't need it we can pack it back. If you don't lay out and you have a fire, you have stepped in a big pile of it. I never like an arz chewing that well.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers


  2. #22
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    First due goes straight in. Officer decides if he wants to drop a line. Second stops at the hydrant. On occasion if the street is narrow one way, the first will drop and lay out and the second will become the attack. If it is up an extended drive way the first in will drop at the street and have the second pick up the line. I have seen the second due come up the drive way and supply the first with water. The third due then picks up the line. Third and fourth due are responsible for the rear and their own water supply.

  3. #23
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    I have been watching this thread, curious how others run their first due.
    In our case it depends on the lactation. Most of our district we are with in 300 feet of a hydrant, but some of the older parts can be 1100 feet, on dead end steets. In the case of a close hydrant, less than 200 feet, the FEOs hand stretch. Were we have the longest stretches, 800 feet plus, the second pumper allows the aerial and service to go in and then lays a line. If we laid 1100 feet in, that would have everyone else hiking in a quarter mile. We have 1500 feet of 5" on every pumper.
    More times than not were are with in 300 feet, but were cannot have an SOP as to how, when, and who will bring a straight lay. Too many variables to try and have "you have to" type SOPs. Our best plan is to know our district, first and second in, and plan for as many scenarios as possible.
    Note: We are fortunate enough to have 4 per engine\aerial with dedicated FEOs. Many departments around us are not that fortunate.

  4. #24
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    I have been watching this thread, curious how others run their first due.
    In our case it depends on the lactation.
    Dude you have something to worry about if that is your concern when figuring out whether to hit a hydrant or not. I am guessing your freudian slip is showing!
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  5. #25
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    Yep, that would be a problem on the job.

  6. #26
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Our second due engine company secures the water supply.

  7. #27
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    We foward lay from a hydrant on reports of smoke and fire in SFD's, other type residences and, small commercial. It is our thought process that it is much better to pack hose several times in a shift then to miss a hydrant. Not having a hydrant on a fire is shameful for the company. It show complacency and lazyness. It really does not take that long to rack back a couple hundred feet of line. Not to mention my BC makes us lay double the distance if we miss a hydrant after the fire is over!

    Our SOP states that the first in will forward lay from the closest hydrant. The 2nd due will lay from the next closest hydrant at the very least on all working fires.

    For large commerical, industrial, high rise (this does not really affect my district) we do not lay in until the location of the fire is confirmed.
    You make a good point. If dispatch states structure fire at a wherehouse at 111 first ave you might automatically respond to that location, grabbing the closest hydrant on the way. When you arrive on scene you realize the actual fire is at the rear of the structure and best access is thru the alley and the closest hydrant from there is not the one you're hooked to.
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

  8. #28
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    I have been watching this thread, curious how others run their first due.
    In our case it depends on the lactation.
    If lactation is involved, I always respond directly to the incident and perform a thurough size up followed by a primary search. Exposures should be given full attention. Positive pressure should also be applied when making entry. Forcible entry is not advised in this situation as the risks are too high. Attic ventilation is a waste of time since no valuables are stored there and the fire is normally located down below. And as always, wear full PPE
    Last edited by Blulakr; 08-10-2010 at 02:04 AM.
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

  9. #29
    Forum Member CGITCH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    and the fire is normally located down below. And as always, wear full PPE
    I don't want to ask what you mean by fire down below...and always wear your PPE

  10. #30
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    Blulakr: You forgot to establish incident command... if you don't, she might!

  11. #31
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    How we do it, first engine in worries about the scene, usually if a burning build will have a fast attack team ready to go in unless it has already been deemed as defensive, second engine in catches a hydrant.

  12. #32
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    here it is MOST typical for the first arriving to lay the line.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  13. #33
    Moderator ProgressiveRescue's Avatar
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    In my opinion that choice can be based on a number of things. The number of engines responding to the fire, the response times of incoming units, is there a confirmed rescue rescue? Your department may like having SOG's that say the 1st due engine secures a hydrant or the second does. Not every fire is the same and likewise your water needs could vary a bit from job to job.
    It's probably a good idea for the 1st due engine to secure a hydrant if theres going to be a delay of the second due engine. If the second due engine is right on your tail you may want to operate initial attack lines on tank water and let the second due engine feed you.
    This can all change in a blink of an eye. If you pull p to a fire in a commercial building you know your tank water won't support 2 1/2" attack lines so grabbing your own hydrant in that example would be a good idea.
    We work in a dynamic environment and need to adapt our operations accordingly. We just need to use our heads and make sound decisions.
    Mike Donahue
    Specialized Rescue Forum Moderator

  14. #34
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    You make a good point. If dispatch states structure fire at a wherehouse at 111 first ave you might automatically respond to that location, grabbing the closest hydrant on the way. When you arrive on scene you realize the actual fire is at the rear of the structure and best access is thru the alley and the closest hydrant from there is not the one you're hooked to.
    The same thing can happen at a reported fire in ANY kind of occupancy. This is one of the primary reasons that our first in engines will NOT lay a supply line. As a first in engine officer, my practice would be to never lay a line, attack or supply, until knowing the type and size of occupancy and the location and extent of the fire. This is also in an urban environment with excellent water supplies and fully staffed equipment.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  15. #35
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    Question

    All you guys who don't position the first engine at the hydrant, what do you do when the second arriving engine lays in to the fire and the hydrant they selected is dead?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaCreek View Post
    All you guys who don't position the first engine at the hydrant, what do you do when the second arriving engine lays in to the fire and the hydrant they selected is dead?
    call for more tankers.

    Around here, the hydrant spacing is such that if the primary hydrant is dead, your best bet is a tanker shuttle. In one area, the hydrants were so unreliable at one point that it was dispatched as a non-hydrant area. Around here the 1st engine will normally drop the line at the hydrant, end of the street/drive or convenient intersection and the 2nd engine picks it up.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaCreek View Post
    All you guys who don't position the first engine at the hydrant, what do you do when the second arriving engine lays in to the fire and the hydrant they selected is dead?
    Since we use 5"\storz for supply, and carry 1500" on every engine, we cut loose and lay out to the next hydrant. If that does not work we have the 3rd or 4th due engine lay in. We have hydrants 300 to 500 ft apart, and in some part of the city have 3 hydrant at intersections, so we are fat with water. Truth is we have hydrant within hand stretch of the intake more time than not.
    On a working fire our 1st alarm is 4 engines, 1 ladder, 2 rescue, District Chief, Service unit, and Safety. What do you do with a dry plug? Does your second engine go in and start fighting the fire, or do they hold off and wait to see if the first engine catches a dry hydrant?

  18. #38
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    Talking

    Carrying 1500' of 5" hose seems like a lot of weight when hydrants are every 300' to 500' feet and 4 engines are going.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaCreek View Post
    All you guys who don't position the first engine at the hydrant, what do you do when the second arriving engine lays in to the fire and the hydrant they selected is dead?
    4 engines, 2 trucks, 1 heavy rescue, chief on report of smoke or fire.

    1st engine pulls 2-3 buildings past fire and drops tank (all 500gal).
    2nd backs down block to 1st eng and drops manifold w/5" supply line at 1st bumper and preceds to hydrant.
    Does not disconnect or put into pump. Checks hydrant. If dead, continues to next hydrant and repeats until working one found. If there's a few dead hydrants and hosebed ends, another engine hooks up to it and continues strech until he finds a working one. We have some broken ones scattered around and every year we get frozen hydrants so we plan for this.

    Side note for other 2 engines.

    3rd due lets both trucks down fire block then backs down, hosebed facing the fire.
    4th due also backs down, drops 5" supply to third and goes to hydrant.

    If you're an engine chauffer by me you better know how to back up without f*k*ing it up!!

    **there are exceptions for very tight ,or wide streets but that's another long winded post.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaCreek View Post
    Carrying 1500' of 5" hose seems like a lot of weight when hydrants are every 300' to 500' feet and 4 engines are going.
    Back in '86 when we transitioned to 5" we were carrying 1500' of 2.5"(800' forward lay, 700' reverse lay). We stuck will the 1500' of 5" after we made several large fires inside of Exxon\Mobile. On larger fires you still need the hose to reach secondary hydrants. On my engine we still carry 600' of 2.5" setup as a reverse lay, with 2-100' 1.75" on a wye.

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