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  1. #1
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    Default Moral, ethical, professional dilemma

    Alright here is the quick run down... I an EMT/Fire student and I was doing my last ER clinical when an 18 year old kid came in with altered mental status due to unknown substance taken at a party... Once he arrives at the ER they find a small baggy of what appears to be weed.. So they take it and give it to PD who was behind them.. So the cops take out their drug testing kit and being an curious student trying to take in as much knowledge as I can I go and ask them a question or 2 about the process and watch them do their thing... Now here comes the f**ked up stuff....
    So they put some of the stuff from the baggy and test it for THC... They tell me if it turns purple it's positive, it doesn't it negative.... So the test turned green ish but never a tiny bit of purple... One of the cops turns to his buddy and says "Maybe I need to add some more..... ah, **** it I saw purple. What about you?" the other cop looks at him and says "I saw purple." Threw the little test thing away and went out to the PT's room.....
    As soon as I heard that I pretty much went then to my buddy who was next to me....
    This is where I did not know what do to.. I was litterally shocked at what I had just heard and said out loud "No way, that's f**ked up" and walked away...
    Having said all that I'm curious as to what you guys would do or how you'd react or act???? I wanted to take the test out of the thrash and bring it to the kids mom and tell her more or less what happened and here's your proof, but then I did not want to jeopardize my schooling and somehow get kicked out or get in trouble and lose any opportunity to work in a FD due to some BS...
    I mean what is the right thing to do in such situation?! That is straight up crooked cop tactic. It's illegal, immoral, and unethical on that cops part.


  2. #2
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    Given that the cops are trained to make a determination based and the test, and you aren't, there isn't much of a problem.

  3. #3
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Yeah right, all cops are honest...
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  4. #4
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    Maybe the test kit has a shelf life and it was expired. Just because the test failed doesn't mean it wasn't pot.

    Was it obviously pot in the bag. If it looked and smelled like pot then that's probable cause to believe it is pot and charge the kid with possesion. Plus if the kid was ALOC then that's more proof. If it's not pot then the kid will have his say in court.

    You should stay out of it.

  5. #5
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Given that the cops are trained to make a determination based and the test, and you aren't, there isn't much of a problem.
    That's BS, straight and simple. Reread what he said. He was a third party to the test, and it failed, by their own words.

    If you were an up and up guy, you should have taken the test kit out of the trash, and gave it to the mother, and the reason why, in a private area. Then make it perfectly clear that you don't want to be involved legally, but she has a case against the so called "weed". When it would be time for court, she could request that the "evidence" be tested right there, right now, as proof of weed.

    It is very possible the kid had "ditch weed", which would not show a THC positive. Trust me, I know.

    Just because the kid was on "something", doesn't mean that he was on "Mary Jane".

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  6. #6
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    Default

    Just a couple of comments;

    I've seen those tests performed numerous times. Field tests aren't always accurate. If teh kid's family wants to fight a ticket, they can have their lawyer get an independent lab test done. The bag of unknown susbstance will be in an evidence locker until the case is over.

    Secondly, as a student, I would recommend not causing too many waves. It could make for a very short career. In the coming years, you'll see some things that will make you shake your head. Especially when dealing with another agency, I've always sent it up my chain of command. Let the people who make the big bucks handle it. Even as student, you have a chain of command, I hope.

    Lastly, if you would like advice on something like this in the future, post it in very general terms. If I posted that same question it would be about 3 days before the officers involved gave me a call. You're not anonymous on here.

    Best of luck to you.

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    Making waves is bad.

    When I was with the ambo service fulltime, we had a EMT who was a paramedic student working there FT, and was doing her ride-outs for paramedic class at one of the city FDs.

    One day they went to the city jail for chest pains, and the medic crew she was riding with decided to no-haul their patient. She decided this wasn't right and in front of the patient, the crew, the engine captain (also a paramedic) and the guards she loudly questioned the paramedics and stated that she felt this man needed to be transported.

    Her ride-outs with that city department ended that night.

    And she had already be kicked off ride-outs with the other area city department.

    She then had to travel 100 miles round trip to another department, where she completed her ride outs.

    Students are students. Unless you have been trained in the procedure the cops used, you are an observer. Only.

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    Thanks for everyones input.. Like I said I didn't do anything, I was simply stating what I had observed and wanted to get an opinion from other people who A) have more experience than me in the field and B) who most likely have seen the same kind of things or worst , go down.
    I'm not trying to make waves of any sort, I didn't take down any of the officers or PT name..
    I was simply shocked because to me it's the kind of stuff that you hear other people talk crap about... oh cops do this and they do that.. And you sit there and think ya maybe they do that but I like to think that they don't.. And this was my first time experience of something that I considered wrong...
    Like I said I didn't do anything because like some of you said I am a student and I work my *** off to do good and get the top grades. Plus I do not want to ruin my chances getting into this great career that is already hard to breakthrough.
    Having said that I probably shouldn't said "That's F**ked up out loud" but I was shocked and really couldn't believe it... In retrospect I know next time to just walk away silently and shake my head and if something is really bad just go through COC.
    Last edited by Marc the Shark; 07-01-2010 at 08:36 AM.

  9. #9
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    In the future, mind your own business. Do YOUR job, and nevermind what the other guy is doing, for the reasons others have stated above. You don't know or are trained in what they are doing.

    And going to the mother and saying "I dont want to get involved legally" would have worked about as good as a lead baloon.....Who do you think that the first person the defense attorney is going to subpoena after the arresting officer will be? HINT: Not your girlfriend.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  10. #10
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc the Shark View Post
    Alright here is the quick run down... I an EMT/Fire student and I was doing my last ER clinical when an 18 year old kid came in with altered mental status due to unknown substance taken at a party... Once he arrives at the ER they find a small baggy of what appears to be weed.. So they take it and give it to PD who was behind them.. So the cops take out their drug testing kit and being an curious student trying to take in as much knowledge as I can I go and ask them a question or 2 about the process and watch them do their thing... Now here comes the f**ked up stuff....
    So they put some of the stuff from the baggy and test it for THC... They tell me if it turns purple it's positive, it doesn't it negative.... So the test turned green ish but never a tiny bit of purple... One of the cops turns to his buddy and says "Maybe I need to add some more..... ah, **** it I saw purple. What about you?" the other cop looks at him and says "I saw purple." Threw the little test thing away and went out to the PT's room.....
    As soon as I heard that I pretty much went then to my buddy who was next to me....
    This is where I did not know what do to.. I was litterally shocked at what I had just heard and said out loud "No way, that's f**ked up" and walked away...
    Having said all that I'm curious as to what you guys would do or how you'd react or act???? I wanted to take the test out of the thrash and bring it to the kids mom and tell her more or less what happened and here's your proof, but then I did not want to jeopardize my schooling and somehow get kicked out or get in trouble and lose any opportunity to work in a FD due to some BS...
    I mean what is the right thing to do in such situation?! That is straight up crooked cop tactic. It's illegal, immoral, and unethical on that cops part.



    They had evidence and after the so call testing, they threw the evidence away??

    There is no case. The evidence is now in the trash and not in their custody, a good lawyer could get this thrown out.

    You also was interfering with what may have been a crime scene or the testing of something that felt was evidence. Stay out of it, unless it effects you directly.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

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  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber Chief_Roy's Avatar
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    I would have to agree, stay out of it. Nothing good can come from getting involved in something like this. Now, if I witnessed a cop planting a drop gun at a murder scene, you can bet I'd find a way to bring it to someone's attention. But pot? Not worth it. Plus, if they threw the test out, any attorney worth his marbles will get the case thrown out in about 30 minutes.

    I remember witnessing a situation where police officer roughed up a suspect who stabbed a police dog. I was brought in to treat his head wound and you could literally see "Maglite" in reverse on his forehead. Probably not proper, but I certainly wasn't going to make waves either.

  12. #12
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roykirk1989 View Post
    I remember witnessing a situation where police officer roughed up a suspect who stabbed a police dog. I was brought in to treat his head wound and you could literally see "Maglite" in reverse on his forehead. Probably not proper, but I certainly wasn't going to make waves either.
    Hey! Maglite Shampoo! Seen that quite a few times!!!!!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  13. #13
    Forum Member JayDudley's Avatar
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    Default Rides

    I always liked the old elevator rides. We'd be dispatched to the jail as it always seemed the perp fell down in the elevator.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
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  14. #14
    Forum Member pasobuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    I always liked the old elevator rides. We'd be dispatched to the jail as it always seemed the perp fell down in the elevator.
    Ever hear the old question - "How many cops does it take to push a perp down the stairs?".......


    NONE - he fell!!!!!!!!

    Back to the thread - I too would not get involved - some things are not worth jeapordizing a career for.....

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    First, we have to assume you saw exactly what you saw. Next we have to assume that if this happened, it wasn't because of some other reason, such as racism. We have to make to many assumption to tell you what you should have done about the situation.

    Secondly the part that I do know about is the chain of evidence. If you give the "test kit" to anyone and say "this is what they did" that is now hearsay. And before someone says "no it isn't hearsay," here is a definition, and yes it is from dictionary.com becaue I did not want to look it up from all of my old papers to get the definition exact word for word:

    Definitions 1:

    unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge

    Although assuming this really did happen and assuming there were no other contributing factors, I beleive everyone else is correct. Stay out of it and do what you said, shake your head and walk away.

    FYI: I learned this from the state officers. Drug dealers and users are getting smarter in the ability to fool the test. There are some chemical dies that could have been added to the "weed" to attempt to fool the test.

  16. #16
    Forum Member JayDudley's Avatar
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    Default Easy

    Stay out of it. You have no training in this ,you don't know the context at which the comments were made, they could have been trying to get a rise out of you..who knows.
    Do your job and let them do theirs.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
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  17. #17
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    There are two sides to every story... sometimes three or four.....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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